Preview of A Game of Thrones


Amy_Amp

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by SuperOz View Post
I'm probably not going to watch this, given that I also haven't read the novels. I actually asked my SG today what it was about and someone said 'Do you know about the War of the Roses and the 100 year war?' And I said yes (I like my history) and was told 'it's like that, except the winters are longer and rocks fall on people and they die.'

I honestly find real-world history to be more intriguing because well...it actually happened for one thing...and I'm not sure how much of Game of Thrones I could handle before I started finding myself depressed because the same person who explained the books to me also said that there's honorable and good people, but hey, they don't last long. Not a good trait.

That was a ringing positive endorsement that kind of made up my mind. It's almost like we've become masochistic in our entertainment lately. If we're not seeing people screw each other over or be flawed and oh-so-terribly-human, then it's not good drama.

I'm all for realism, but so long as it's balanced.


S.
The books are so good because the series does not follow the standard fantasy tropes . . . No "good heros go on an impossible quest against the ultimate evil" plot lines. Instead, it is a story of complex political maneuvers and the deadly results. The larger kingdom is made up of seven former kingdoms, and has numerous threats from inside as well as two huge threats from outside, one of which has some semblence of legitimacy. The characters are driven by realistic motivations: power, greed, lust, selfishness, justice, family, revenge, and in some cases, stupidity. Many are simply trying to survive in a difficult world. While there are "good guys" and "bad guys," all of them have shades of grey, and many of the not-so-nice characters have a damn good reason for acting the way that they do.

Magic is minimized in the earlier books. In much of the story, magic is part of the background but does not play a huge role in the lives of the characters until later books. Dragons play a small but important part as the series goes on.

And some of the good and honorable people do last . . . at least so far. One of the things that makes the series so good is that you never know who will survive. Just when you think that this is a major character who will carry the story to the end, he or she gets killed off or some other significant thing happens to fully change that character. People who seem like minor characters become major characters while other major characters fade into the background.


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Posted

I appreciate the comments as to why some of you consider this series worth watching or reading the books.

However, I kind of like fantasy tropes, so long as they're not overdone. I like magic, I like dragons. I like a story that says 'hey, you're in this fantastic setting where fantastic things happen.' In other words, not the real world. I don't mind if I see people do extraordinary things, because that's what we're capable of as human beings.

As for the realistic motivations, I see those every day. I'm watching power, greed, lust selfishness, justice, family, revenge and stupidity just in Libya alone. I saw them in Egypt, I've seen them in Iran. The point of this story as people seem to keep pointing out is to see who's going to survive and being double-bluffed by the story.

As a prior person pointed out, it's like Shakespeare. I personally would find such a story profoundly depressing, because from my basic impressions it seems like you play a waiting game to see just who dies next.

I don't really understand why the 'shades of grey' and 'realism' have become so appealing lately. Are we just jaded as audiences? Do people actually not want to see good people doing good things because...it's the right thing to do? And I'll explain that by saying I don't think that as a motivation is not realistic, because most people I know in my experience want to do just that. Most people I know are essentially decent human beings who in some cases I call my friends.

I haven't got a problem with human motivations because I have them myself. I think in an age where we have a series where a serial killer who kills bad people has become popular (and just consider that sentence a moment if you would), it's almost as if stories like Game of Thrones is like us eating our own proverbial serpent's tail.

I think there's so many great untold and bloody stories in our own history that again, it seems a little masochistic to then make up stories where we indulge the very urges that helped shape our history and read with pleasure as the characters fall to them.

I'm not going to heap criticism on Game of Thrones because I know so little about it. If you enjoy the series and what's in it, I think that's fantastic and more power to you. I say the same to anyone who enjoys anime or Power Rangers or Pokemon. Any issues I have is just what I've outlined above and it's not meant as a raging angry criticism of the story.



S.


Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperOz View Post
However, I kind of like fantasy tropes, so long as they're not overdone. I like magic, I like dragons. I like a story that says 'hey, you're in this fantastic setting where fantastic things happen.' In other words, not the real world. I don't mind if I see people do extraordinary things, because that's what we're capable of as human beings.
While I appreciate the ennobling quality that high fantasy can offer, sometimes I'm concerned that in featuring elves and wizards so prominently, it may instead distract us from what we're capable of precisely as human beings. Stepping outside our shortcomings through the imagination to create fantasy races with idealized qualities can place virtues and vices in sharp contrast, but this can also overshadow the complexities of human existence.

The obvious expample is of course Tolkein's obsession with elves over portraying recognizably human characters - the Eldar virtually embody perfection in contrast to the stiffly rendered race of Men. It took Sean Bean to add some recognizable depth to the character of Boromir in Lord of the Rings, so there are high hopes he can do the same for Martin's epic.

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As a prior person pointed out, it's like Shakespeare. I personally would find such a story profoundly depressing, because from my basic impressions it seems like you play a waiting game to see just who dies next.
Perhaps King Lear and Richard III should be avoided on those grounds, but such is the tragic point of view, where the bad end unhappily and the good unluckily - and the final body count is rather high.

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I don't really understand why the 'shades of grey' and 'realism' have become so appealing lately.
You did mention the recent examples of Libya, Egypt, Iran, to say nothing of the headlines of, well, the past decade. I suspect that in this context, some portion of the viewing audience just can't engage with uncomplicated escapism and unquestioned idealism any more. The Lord of the Rings movies' success came at the beginning of the decade, after all.

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I haven't got a problem with human motivations because I have them myself. I think in an age where we have a series where a serial killer who kills bad people has become popular (and just consider that sentence a moment if you would), it's almost as if stories like Game of Thrones is like us eating our own proverbial serpent's tail.
For the record, I think Dexter is a profoundly intellectually dishonest show, despite individual actors' performances in its favor. In adapting a series of thrillers, it's trying to have its cake and eat it too when attempting to portray a pure sociopath as a vigilante - a fantasy of a very different nature. It's also impeded from real growth by the success of its formula, which it now is struggling to find variations on since Showtime can't afford let one of its best-rated shows come up with a concluding arc. This is the kind of trap that A Game of Thrones will at least avoid if it manages to stick to the one-season-per-book schedule.

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I think there's so many great untold and bloody stories in our own history that again, it seems a little masochistic to then make up stories where we indulge the very urges that helped shape our history and read with pleasure as the characters fall to them.
The difficulty in studying history, apart from its natural resistance to dramatic conventions, is the real-world baggage we inevitably bring to topics, no matter how far removed. (It's surprising, say, how bitter the French are about Azincourt and Waterloo.) Fantasy can supply a little distance for analagous topics it wishes to explore.

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Any issues I have is just what I've outlined above and it's not meant as a raging angry criticism of the story.
On the contrary, you're raising some interesting issues that at least part of Game of Throne's potential audience will no doubt share, to say nothing of the mainstream audience.


EDIT: I certainly did cite Lord of the Rings a great deal here, but mainly because it remains the gold standard of fantasy adaptations in film, in both fidelity and mainstream success, not because I regard it as the best fantasy series.


 

Posted

For all its good and bad points, Martin's opus is definitely not escapist literature. It is grim and brutal and he often employs the same gambit that both King and Whedon do, in that he creates an interesting character, spends a great deal of time developing them and gets you to care about them... and then snuffs them randomly. At first it has the shock value you expect, but after the fourth or fifth one the shock wears off and a certain numbness sets in.


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Posted

I noticed a link entitled "Is A Game of Thrones the next Scott Pilgrim Vs The World?" today in passing at some site. Good to know geek rumblings of excitement means doom now for mainstream media.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
For all its good and bad points, Martin's opus is definitely not escapist literature. It is grim and brutal and he often employs the same gambit that both King and Whedon do, in that he creates an interesting character, spends a great deal of time developing them and gets you to care about them... and then snuffs them randomly. At first it has the shock value you expect, but after the fourth or fifth one the shock wears off and a certain numbness sets in.
I have to say that, at this point, if he kills off Tyrion I may become disinterested in the rest of the series.


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Farewell is like the end
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman View Post
While I appreciate the ennobling quality that high fantasy can offer, sometimes I'm concerned that in featuring elves and wizards so prominently, it may instead distract us from what we're capable of precisely as human beings. Stepping outside our shortcomings through the imagination to create fantasy races with idealized qualities can place virtues and vices in sharp contrast, but this can also overshadow the complexities of human existence.

The obvious expample is of course Tolkein's obsession with elves over portraying recognizably human characters - the Eldar virtually embody perfection in contrast to the stiffly rendered race of Men. It took Sean Bean to add some recognizable depth to the character of Boromir in Lord of the Rings, so there are high hopes he can do the same for Martin's epic.


Perhaps King Lear and Richard III should be avoided on those grounds, but such is the tragic point of view, where the bad end unhappily and the good unluckily - and the final body count is rather high.


You did mention the recent examples of Libya, Egypt, Iran, to say nothing of the headlines of, well, the past decade. I suspect that in this context, some portion of the viewing audience just can't engage with uncomplicated escapism and unquestioned idealism any more. The Lord of the Rings movies' success came at the beginning of the decade, after all.


For the record, I think Dexter is a profoundly intellectually dishonest show, despite individual actors' performances in its favor. In adapting a series of thrillers, it's trying to have its cake and eat it too when attempting to portray a pure sociopath as a vigilante - a fantasy of a very different nature. It's also impeded from real growth by the success of its formula, which it now is struggling to find variations on since Showtime can't afford let one of its best-rated shows come up with a concluding arc. This is the kind of trap that A Game of Thrones will at least avoid if it manages to stick to the one-season-per-book schedule.


The difficulty in studying history, apart from its natural resistance to dramatic conventions, is the real-world baggage we inevitably bring to topics, no matter how far removed. (It's surprising, say, how bitter the French are about Azincourt and Waterloo.) Fantasy can supply a little distance for analagous topics it wishes to explore.


On the contrary, you're raising some interesting issues that at least part of Game of Throne's potential audience will no doubt share, to say nothing of the mainstream audience.


EDIT: I certainly did cite Lord of the Rings a great deal here, but mainly because it remains the gold standard of fantasy adaptations in film, in both fidelity and mainstream success, not because I regard it as the best fantasy series.
Oh, I kind of disagree about the portrayal of elves in LotR, simply because yes, they are being held to a different standard, but the only reason men are lower down the scale is because they brought about their own downfall. And when you weigh in that the novels are set during a period when it's Men who are going to have the dominion of Middle-Earth, and only one man, and one man who embodies the very best of humanity who can lead them, I find that speaks profoundly about the human experience. We can rise above the worst of our natures and embrace the best. We can forgive, we can inspire. And given the alternative I've seen in the history of this planet in the last one hundred years especially with the rise of the Third Reich...I know which one I think I want to influence me.

I personally think Viggo Mortenson did more to be a human character than Bean, because his Aragorn was conflicted (unlike the novels) and uncertain. He was cheerful, likeable, wise, passionate, and yet could make the hardest of decisions and felt deeply any losses he had. It seems unfortunate that there's this current tendency to look to the more 'normal' of us (and in forty-three years, I've yet to find a definition of the word that fits anyone I know), as if the best of our ideals can't be done. That's not idealism, that's a goal to aspire to.

As far as Lear and Richard III is concerned, I've studied and like them both. But that's the thing...even those are dramatisations of real events, and we know simply because of dramatic license that even Game of Thrones abides by those conventions. Martin presumably could choose not to kill off a given character, but because he does, it's a dramatic license he builds into the story. And I write this with surprise now noting that the major thing I know about the story is just that. He writes a cast of interesting characters and then kills them. Not that the world is well described or alluring...or that there are moments I would be touched or heartened by. As I type this, there's a documentary on, complete with dramatic music and voiceovers talking about the story of Mary, Queen of Scots. And it's enthralling. Like I said before, I think any story pales in comparison to the real world.

When you say the audience can't take escapism or unquestioned idealism, is that to say that they are jaded or lacking any sense of hope? Because it sounds to me like the real world has been so terrible that that's what we'd seek in our entertainment, which by its definition is escapism. It's what we do, we escape from the real world for a while. I think I would feel very sad if I felt I couldn't just step away for a while to somewhere else, and think a set of ideals or some morals are good ones that I don't have to think about because I know they're good ones. I think it's when perhaps you do have to question your idealism it's because you inherently know there's something wrong with it.

The questions you raise over Dexter are ones I totally agree with, but I think you'll find Game of Thrones won't escape things. Absolutely no work of fiction survives intact to another medium, and this won't be any different. Peoples familiar with this story won't recognise some things, and will wonder why some things and parts of the story aren't there at all. Look at our prior point of Lord of the Rings and you can see in the movies how much had to be stripped away and altered to make it work for a broad audience. Even with the author on board this project, I can guarantee you there'll be things followers of the books will object to. It's the nature of the beast. And HBO brought us the magnificent Rome and it barely managed two seasons in the end. Stories are one things, budgets are another.

If the story can't grab the mainstream audience, you may only ever get one or two seasons. And at very worst, not even one. So I don't know what variety the story can offer, but modern audiences have tremendously bad attention spans. I'd expect a lot more action and such (look at Spartacus and now Camelot, prime examples of how to 'sex up' stories...getting a second season approved before the pilot of the first is what producers kill for) in place of anything considered 'slow' or 'unnecessary'.

Lastly, I agree we bring baggage to our history, but we also bring it to fantasy for those very same reasons you cite. What's Martin doing after all if not taking what we know and writing what he wanted to see happen?



S.


Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperOz View Post
Oh, I kind of disagree about the portrayal of elves in LotR, simply because yes, they are being held to a different standard, but the only reason men are lower down the scale is because they brought about their own downfall. And when you weigh in that the novels are set during a period when it's Men who are going to have the dominion of Middle-Earth, and only one man, and one man who embodies the very best of humanity who can lead them, I find that speaks profoundly about the human experience. We can rise above the worst of our natures and embrace the best. We can forgive, we can inspire.
...we can walk when we could've flown. Aragorn, dude, seriously, TAKE THE GIANT EAGLE.


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Posted

I've even seen the animated gifs talking about that. But everyone seems to forget that Sauron had the Ringwraiths on the fly about the place and just by looking at them flying overhead would cause the Eagles, the Ringbearer and anyone else to just want to give up on the spot. I think too many people think of Sauron in his tower as just a big glowing lighthouse.

He can see to just about anywhere in Middle-Earth, can dispatch the Ringwraiths (who can also fly) and has armies at his disposal with siege weaponry. It's not as easy as we'd like to think.


S.


Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperOz View Post
I've even seen the animated gifs talking about that. But everyone seems to forget that Sauron had the Ringwraiths on the fly about the place and just by looking at them flying overhead would cause the Eagles, the Ringbearer and anyone else to just want to give up on the spot. I think too many people think of Sauron in his tower as just a big glowing lighthouse.

He can see to just about anywhere in Middle-Earth, can dispatch the Ringwraiths (who can also fly) and has armies at his disposal with siege weaponry. It's not as easy as we'd like to think.
It's not that some people forget but rather that they're simply not invested in imagining a quasi-Luciferian supernatural entity with air support from a group of cursed ghosts in an allegory of the temptations of power.

For them, the entirely human motivations of greed, lust, honor, and sacrifice and the political machinations of dynastic rivalries in Game of Thrones will probably be much more to their taste.


 

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Originally Posted by Amy_Amp View Post
The goal is a season for each book and there's 7 books in all when they are finally written.
That's not the goal, at least according to the producers. They're already talking about splitting Storm of Swords into two seasons. GoT is one of the more self-contained (and shorter) books; it sounds like they will evaluate the others on a case by case basis.


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