Which elude would be better?
By
Arbegla,
Posted on: 2011-03-30 16:02 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
Neither. They both have elude.|
Originally Posted by Murdok
A spines/sr scrapper with 137 Defense Debuff Resistance with elude posting numbers at 107%, 101%, & 101% to the three positional defenses? Or a NW who can get around 150% melee, 140% ranged, & 140% AOE, but only has 57 DDR?
Which would be more survivabe in the long run? |
Seriously though, the scrapper. His DDR gets capped at 95%, but is virtually immune to the debuffs. It's possible that the NW could get debuffed down under 45%, but still highly unlikely.
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The NW will get debuffed into the deep red when fighting obnoxious mobs like Cimerorans and Kheld PPD.
Quote:
The NW will die LONG before debuffs will make any difference. And the chances of being hit that many times to make a difference is really meaningless anyway.|
Originally Posted by Silverado
The NW will get debuffed into the deep red when fighting obnoxious mobs like Cimerorans and Kheld PPD.
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With extremely loose numbers, the debuff is something in the order of 7.5% from memory, and you resist half of it so you suffer approximately 4% with each hit. In order to suffer cascasing defence failure (ie defence <45%) from 150% melee defence, you'd need to be hit approximately 27 times in the length of their debuff which is maybe 10 seconds long.
The chances of being hit 27 times in that short window firstly is pretty darn small. The fact you'll probably be dead as a NW off 27 Cimeroran hits precludes this from likely happening anyway.
More rough numbers: If there are 10 Cimerorans each attacking every 2 seconds there are a total of 50 attacks. The chances of 27 or greater of those hitting you is ... well, quite small. The calculator I used put it at 0. I had to fudge some numbers to get you an idea of what it's really like. To get 25 or greater successes out of 50 attacks it's 2.99x10^-15 (0.00000000000000299% chance). Unfortunately it wouldn't calculate beyond 10^-15 but you surely get the idea anyway.
Source: http://stattrek.com/Tables/Binomial.aspx
What is more probable is some kind of mass auto-hitting defence debuff like Earth Control has. Even this is spectacularly unlikely given how high defence you are to begin with. However, seeing that there *is* a chance this could happen, I would have to say the Scrapper has the advantage. I can't imagine any content yet exists where this question really is relevant though.
Quote:
It depends on what you're facing: -DEF or +ToHit?|
Originally Posted by Murdok
A spines/sr scrapper with 137 Defense Debuff Resistance with elude posting numbers at 107%, 101%, & 101% to the three positional defenses? Or a NW who can get around 150% melee, 140% ranged, & 140% AOE, but only has 57 DDR?
Which would be more survivable in the long run? |
Theoretically the Scrapper wins against a straight series of -DEF attacks, due to the huge difference in DDR. Even after (well) over 100 hits with a 7.5% -DEF component for each, the Scrapper would still be softcapped even to 64% ToHit opponents. The Night Widow would lose softcap to 64% ToHit opponents at around 29 hits and to 50% ToHit opponents at around 33 hits.
Barring a crazy unlucky streak with the RNG, though, both would show exactly the same survivability in-game under the same circumstances. Then it's down to damage and other mitigation as to who would survive longer. If either took 29 hits within the 10sec debuff window, neither of them would survive.
If you look at +ToHit, the NW fares much better than the Scrapper, due to the higher base defense. This is much more likely to be an issue. Stacks of Vengeance, higher base ToHit figures in high end content, Build Up, Aim, Rage, Tactics... lots of things have +ToHit effects.
Altogether, I'd say the Night Widow will have better survivability for a wider range of content in actual gameplay. Both would be dead anyway by the point the DDR difference is felt, so it's down to how they handle high ToHit and the Night Widow wins there.
I actually think the scaling resistance of the scrapper would save it over the scaling resistance the NW has (based on hitpoint totals, i think the scrappers scales higher faster if you take all 3 passives, where the NW only has 1 power that adds the scaling resistance)
So after the 30 or so hit, the scrapper may still be standing, due to scaling resistance, where the NW would be long dead.
It depends.
If facing enemies able to bring more than +50 to-hit to bear against you (Nemesis, Dev. Earth, maybe IDF if soloing at x8), the Widow will be tougher.
If facing anything else, the Scrapper is tougher, due to higher HP and better scaling resists.
Against Enemies with large amounts of non-positional Psi damage, the widow may do better due to good Psi resist, but it would have to be A LOT of it, enough to make the Widows HP+Psi res more relevant than the Scrappers HP+scaling. Maybe Rularuu Wisps at x8... I'm not sure.
Overall the DDR is not really relevant. As foks have noted, it'd take a MASSIVE amount of -def to get either character below soft-cap, so much that you'll almost certainly be dead from regular attacks long before being below soft-cap.
Edit: The Scrapper would also enjoy Spines' -rech in every attack. Fighting near or at the aggro cap (in any other situation niether character likely in much danger), this would probably make a pretty significant difference.
Quote:
This is a flat lie. Seriously man I went AFK in that mission on my Dom who didn't have Sos yet, and 30 minutes later i was still standing there.|
Originally Posted by Gearsinger
I did the Vincent Ross arc on my Fortunata. Even with all the ridiculous buffs at the end, a couple of the Legacy Chain guys got their earth immobs stacked on me, and I nearly ate pavement due to cascading defense failure. DDR is good stuff, even if you don't need it much of the time.
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You made that up.
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Quote:
I dunno, my NW has over 60% melee and she never really gets debuffed down by Cims. I also have Smoke Grenade for -ToHit. I don't really try to solo x8 on them but I don't need to; I'm rolling with a team. Almost all teams will have some sort of +DEF anyway, so the DDR will really only matter if you're soloing.|
Originally Posted by Silverado
The NW will get debuffed into the deep red when fighting obnoxious mobs like Cimerorans and Kheld PPD.
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I agree though, Elude is silly. I don't have it, don't want it.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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If you have that much defense, DDR won't even matter.
Although, Elude is pretty useless if you're already at the softcap except for some rare occasions. I certainly wouldn't take it on the NW when you can get perma ML fairly easily.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
This is a flat lie. Seriously man I went AFK in that mission on my Dom who didn't have Sos yet, and 30 minutes later i was still standing there.
You made that up. |
'cause I obviously have a reason to lie about that. I'm so cool I had to pop inspirations when I was supposed to be unkillable.
I had the difficulty at +4/x8, with bosses and AVs, just 'cause I knew I should be able to survive it. Somewhere in the forth wave, some of the Legacy Chain got lucky and hit me with their immobs, which allowed more of them to hit me with their immobs, which allowed other things to start hitting consistently.
I popped what greens and oranges I had and ran away to let the debuffs wear off. After that I was fine again, if a bit embarrassed.
Hubris bites another on the butt.
Quote:
Super Reflexes scaling resists don't have a Psi resist component. SR is 100% vulnerable to non-positional Psi. I believe the Widows do have it in their scaling resists, not sure.|
Originally Posted by SlyGuyMcFly
It depends.
Against Enemies with large amounts of non-positional Psi damage, the widow may do better due to good Psi resist, but it would have to be A LOT of it, enough to make the Widows HP+Psi res more relevant than the Scrappers HP+scaling. Maybe Rularuu Wisps at x8... I'm not sure. |
I need to learn the exact numbers, but based on memory I believe the Widows have superior resist % in their scaling resists. I can remember the first time I played one I couldn't believe how high the scaling resists were going at even 50% health. Someone correct me on this if my perception here is faulty, but I do think a Widow at 50% health will have much higher scaling resist than a SR Scrapper at 50% health.
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Quote:
Elude is not silly. I can do things on my perma-eluder /sr that soft cap junkies couldn't dream of. Most recently, I tanked the two warwalkers at the end of the Tin Mage TF by myself while the rest of my team killed the two AVs. 45% defense won't last long against that kind of to-hit.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I agree though, Elude is silly. I don't have it, don't want it.
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Now granted, in most situations, perma-elude is a bit of overkill, but if you've got the money for it, why not give a go?
Quote:
QFT|
Originally Posted by Murdok
Elude is not silly. I can do things on my perma-eluder /sr that soft cap junkies couldn't dream of. Most recently, I tanked the two warwalkers at the end of the Tin Mage TF by myself while the rest of my team killed the two AVs. 45% defense won't last long against that kind of to-hit.
Now granted, in most situations, perma-elude is a bit of overkill, but if you've got the money for it, why not give a go? |
Softcap won't save you against Vengeance, Praetorian Devouring Earth (higher ToHit) or AE custom stupidity. Among other things.
Plus, it can mule the 3% Resist IO.
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Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
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Quote:
I have Smoke Grenade, Placate, and perma Vengeance for the people who are dying who aren't me, since I'm making sure not to maintain too much aggro as a Widow. |
Originally Posted by Murdok
Thanks for the help numbers guys. I appreciate it.
Elude is not silly. I can do things on my perma-eluder /sr that soft cap junkies couldn't dream of. Most recently, I tanked the two warwalkers at the end of the Tin Mage TF by myself while the rest of my team killed the two AVs. 45% defense won't last long against that kind of to-hit. Now granted, in most situations, perma-elude is a bit of overkill, but if you've got the money for it, why not give a go? |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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A spines/sr scrapper with 137 Defense Debuff Resistance with elude posting numbers at 107%, 101%, & 101% to the three positional defenses? Or a NW who can get around 150% melee, 140% ranged, & 140% AOE, but only has 57 DDR?
Which would be more survivabe in the long run?