Bored with the whole Praetoria schtick
By
Aliana Blue,
Posted on: 2011-03-22 06:12 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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No, I made an argument for not being worse than the monster you're trying to defeat. You're arguing that it's okay so long as the monster is defeated.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
OK, so the alternative is? You just made an argument for allowing Cole's regime to continue to exist. For accepting endless tyranny, slavery, conquest.
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Ironically, you said you wondered how these people got into power. I guess now we know.
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| I want Scott to win, I don't want him to rule. |
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| You condemn him while excusing a madman. |
OK, so what are you going to do? Allow the Tyrant to stay in power? Engage in futile "just wars" against an almost incalculably stronger opponent. Please do tell. Both sides are bad. We agree on that. When the rubber meets the road what would you do as a super in Praetoria?
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By the way, on this point. Scott is a man. Not a super. In a world of supers his ability to maintain any grip on power is marginal.
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Originally Posted by Jophiel
Yeah, if he ever "grudgingly" took up the mantle of Ruler after winning (just during these transitional times, of course...), it would be the first time in history that ever happened.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Play the game? Beat up Resistance on Character A and send explosive-rigged ghouls to tear up the PPD on character B? While I think both sides are horrid from a moral standpoint, I'm not playing the game as a moral litmus test and grab whatever missions sound the most fun. Personally, my favorite is the explosive ghoul arc.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
OK, so what are you going to do?
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| By the way, on this point. Scott is a man. Not a super. In a world of supers his ability to maintain any grip on power is marginal. |
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It should be noted that we're not ignoring Cole's atrocities - the moral standpoint wants them to end. But by that same moral sandpoint we don't want Calvin Scott in charge of the Resistance. Anything necessary to get Cole out of power is one thing, but there isn't a justification for blowing up a hospital to cause terror.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
OK, so what are you going to do? Allow the Tyrant to stay in power? Engage in futile "just wars" against an almost incalculably stronger opponent. Please do tell. Both sides are bad. We agree on that. When the rubber meets the road what would you do as a super in Praetoria?
By the way, on this point. Scott is a man. Not a super. In a world of supers his ability to maintain any grip on power is marginal. |
And just for the record - I'm generally against weapons of mass destruction where more conventional weapons would do the trick, meaning there are several sites of Cole's war machine that could be taken out. a nuclear device probably wouldn't take Cole out at this point, so if Cole was still alive he would be there to try again. But even then a weapon of mass destruction doesn't purposefully target hospitals.
Ye Gods man, we can not support Cole and Scott at the same time. They're both evil and given the choice in real life I wouldn't support either one of them, and instead start my own resistance cell meant to actually do something substantial to take down Cole's war machine. Or do you really think that making people desperate because of Resistance action - thereby solidifying Cole's rhetoric to keep him in power - is justified? I mean seriously. Safety by any means necessary (meaning a lack of freedom) is wrong - but so is freedom by any means necessary (meaning a lack of regulation on behavior, which inevitably leads to violence, whether it be economic violence or what have you). Given the choice I much prefer the responsibility Loyalist path and the Warden path, at least those actors haven't lost sight of what they're fighting for. I think the Wardens need to be a bit more militant, but at least they're not blowing up Cole Memorial. I mean seriously. Can you really justify that to me with the evidence given in game as a just and legal target?
"Be a beacon?"
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Support the underground railroad and get as many people as possible out of Praetoria. Hook up with resistance movements in other parts of the world doing the same. Try to build a power base outside of Tyrant's sphere of control. Attempt to derail State atrocities whenever possible. Following the discovery of interdimensional travel attempt to win support from legitimate offworld agents (i.e. not Arachnos, Malta, etc.)| OK, so what are you going to do? Allow the Tyrant to stay in power? Engage in futile "just wars" against an almost incalculably stronger opponent. Please do tell. Both sides are bad. We agree on that. When the rubber meets the road what would you do as a super in Praetoria? |
That's what I would do as a Praetorian, mind you. As I said way back in GR's beta, my recommendation to the government as a Primal super who's seen Praetoria would be to either block access to the dimension or, failing that, open portals and throw nukes through them until the planet is uninhabitable or we run out. (One of the reasons why I can't get interested in the new trials is that they don't present any tactical problems that are actually better solved with small groups of superheroes instead of an air strike.)
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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A lot of the Lambda facility is underground and in general underground facilities, barring tactical nuclear devices, will sustain limited damage from airstrikes.
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Originally Posted by Venture
Support the underground railroad and get as many people as possible out of Praetoria. Hook up with resistance movements in other parts of the world doing the same. Try to build a power base outside of Tyrant's sphere of control. Attempt to derail State atrocities whenever possible. Following the discovery of interdimensional travel attempt to win support from legitimate offworld agents (i.e. not Arachnos, Malta, etc.)
That's what I would do as a Praetorian, mind you. As I said way back in GR's beta, my recommendation to the government as a Primal super who's seen Praetoria would be to either block access to the dimension or, failing that, open portals and throw nukes through them until the planet is uninhabitable or we run out. (One of the reasons why I can't get interested in the new trials is that they don't present any tactical problems that are actually better solved with small groups of superheroes instead of an air strike.) |
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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He seems to be doing a fair job of it at the moment.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
By the way, on this point. Scott is a man. Not a super. In a world of supers his ability to maintain any grip on power is marginal.
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Replacing Tyrant with someone or something equally abhorrent accomplishes nothing. What happens after Tyrant's deposed? Well, now instead of people like Marauder and Neuron running things we have War Dog and Splice. I know, let's create a militant band to depose the new government! We'll make sure everyone has their safety and their freedom! Ooh, except that Scott fellow is pretty on top of things. Maybe we can destabilize him a bit by blowing up that hospital...
The Resistance accomplishes nothing if they don't first hold themselves to a higher standard. There has to be a point where someone draws a line and says "No. We don't do that. We're supposed to be the good guys here."
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Well said.
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Originally Posted by Lazarillo
He seems to be doing a fair job of it at the moment.
Replacing Tyrant with someone or something equally abhorrent accomplishes nothing. What happens after Tyrant's deposed? Well, now instead of people like Marauder and Neuron running things we have War Dog and Splice. I know, let's create a militant band to depose the new government! We'll make sure everyone has their safety and their freedom! Ooh, except that Scott fellow is pretty on top of things. Maybe we can destabilize him a bit by blowing up that hospital... The Resistance accomplishes nothing if they don't first hold themselves to a higher standard. There has to be a point where someone draws a line and says "No. We don't do that. We're supposed to be the good guys here." |
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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We have conventional weapons capable of dealing with hardened underground targets in the real world; I'm sure the Omnidisciplanary Scientists of the City universe can do just as well or better.| A lot of the Lambda facility is underground and in general underground facilities, barring tactical nuclear devices, will sustain limited damage from airstrikes. |
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| There has to be a point where someone draws a line and says "No. We don't do that. We're supposed to be the good guys here." |
So say we all.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Interestingly enough, I agree entirely. Given the choice, that what I would do. Obviously, the game doesn't give us that choice.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Support the underground railroad and get as many people as possible out of Praetoria. Hook up with resistance movements in other parts of the world doing the same. Try to build a power base outside of Tyrant's sphere of control. Attempt to derail State atrocities whenever possible. Following the discovery of interdimensional travel attempt to win support from legitimate offworld agents (i.e. not Arachnos, Malta, etc.)
That's what I would do as a Praetorian, mind you. As I said way back in GR's beta, my recommendation to the government as a Primal super who's seen Praetoria would be to either block access to the dimension or, failing that, open portals and throw nukes through them until the planet is uninhabitable or we run out. (One of the reasons why I can't get interested in the new trials is that they don't present any tactical problems that are actually better solved with small groups of superheroes instead of an air strike.) |
My argument here isn't that Calvin Scott is a good man, or even justified in what he does. My argument is that Praetoria is so bad that I would be willing to work with bad people (Scott) to take down Cole, because he's demonstrably worse. And yes, I'm making a value judgment that anything that Scott has done is less evil than Cole's regime.
Cole is without doubt the most evil villain in the "City of." Scott is on the right side, but his methods are terrible. For the same reasons that I would work with villains to repel the Rikti, or keep the 5th column from corrupting the past, I would work with the Resistance to oppose Cole.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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They accomplish removing Cole. |
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
The Resistance accomplishes nothing if they don't first hold themselves to a higher standard. There has to be a point where someone draws a line and says "No. We don't do that. We're supposed to be the good guys here."
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It's great to stand for your principles, but if in standing for them, you allow a great evil to continue to exist, your principles mean nothing.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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The last time someone compromised his principles in order to save Praetoria from a greater evil, Cole is exactly who we got. Deposing Tyrant and putting Tyrant II in his place leaves the world in the same spot it was. Nothing meaningful is accomplished; everything's just back to square one. Actually, it's worse than it was because how many people were murdered for the sake of accomplishing nothing? The Resistance sure likes to beat the "freedom" drum, never willing to own up to the fact that death is the ultimate form of oppression.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
They accomplish removing Cole.
It's great to stand for your principles, but if in standing for them, you allow a great evil to continue to exist, your principles mean nothing. |
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In a time of crisis, those principles are never more important.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
They accomplish removing Cole.
It's great to stand for your principles, but if in standing for them, you allow a great evil to continue to exist, your principles mean nothing. |
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
During WWII, the US allied with the Soviet Union to take out Nazi Germany. Without the USSR, there's some doubt Germany could have been defeated, at least prior to the A-Bomb (some estimates say that 80% of Germany's divisions were tied down at the Russian front - the other 20% fought the US, Britain, and everyone else...)
Stalin was a monster (the numbers he had killed/enslaved is unknown, but easily in the 10s of millions, and eventual world conquest for communism was his ultimate goal), yet the times necessitated using him as an ally. Of course, once the Nazis were defeated, Stalin and the USSR became enemy number 1.
Does this analogy work at all for the discussion at hand?
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Really, what started this was your bizarre assertion that players who side with the Loyalists strike fear into your heart about how real world dictators come into power while simultaneously saying that the Warders don't go far enough and acts of plain, overt terrorism are completely justified, slaughtering untold numbers of innocent civilians en masse under the guise of giving them their freedom.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
My argument here isn't that Calvin Scott is a good man, or even justified in what he does. My argument is that Praetoria is so bad that I would be willing to work with bad people (Scott) to take down Cole, because he's demonstrably worse. And yes, I'm making a value judgment that anything that Scott has done is less evil than Cole's regime.
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From a game perspective, I couldn't care less. I might object from a story standpoint but I don't play MMORPGs to deeply explore my moral psyche. I don't assume anyone playing Resistance is a terrorist nor that anyone playing Loyalist is a fascist. But since you brought the real world into it and started applying people's in-game choices to the real world, I find your beliefs as troubling as you say you find those of others.
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That's the slippery slope argument. And it's always been rubbish to me. Each decision you make is an opportunity to turn back. Just because you take the fight to the tyrant doesn't mean you're going to decide all of a sudden that you want to sit on his throne. Sure, that happens throughout history, but there's also plenty of times the usurper allows someone else the reins.|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
The last time someone compromised his principles in order to save Praetoria from a greater evil, Cole is exactly who we got. Deposing Tyrant and putting Tyrant II in his place leaves the world in the same spot it was. Nothing meaningful is accomplished; everything's just back to square one. Actually, it's worse than it was because how many people were murdered for the sake of accomplishing nothing? The Resistance sure likes to beat the "freedom" drum, never willing to own up to the fact that death is the ultimate form of oppression.
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Even then, I disagree that Cole fit that model. There's plenty of evidence that Hamidon isn't as signficant a threat as its made out to be. Primal Hamidon is well contained.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Actually, when you posted that trollish comment about the hospitals, I just started screwing with you. Starting with the "Darn straight" comment. I would have thought that was obvious from that comment but I'll add a |
Originally Posted by Jophiel
Really, what started this was your bizarre assertion that players who side with the Loyalists strike fear into your heart about how real world dictators come into power while simultaneously saying that the Warders don't go far enough and acts of plain, overt terrorism are completely justified, slaughtering untold numbers of innocent civilians en masse under the guise of giving them their freedom.
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next time. Quote:
| But since you brought the real world into it and started applying people's in-game choices to the real world, I find your beliefs as troubling as you say you find those of others. |
If I posted something that made you think that, I'm sorry. I was being a jerk.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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There's a significant amount of in game lore that indicates that Praetorian Hamidon is more powerful than Primals - starting with the fact that it withstood nuclear attack.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
That's the slippery slope argument. And it's always been rubbish to me. Each decision you make is an opportunity to turn back. Just because you take the fight to the tyrant doesn't mean you're going to decide all of a sudden that you want to sit on his throne. Sure, that happens throughout history, but there's also plenty of times the usurper allows someone else the reins.
Even then, I disagree that Cole fit that model. There's plenty of evidence that Hamidon isn't as signficant a threat as its made out to be. Primal Hamidon is well contained. |
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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Did we ever try to nuke our Hami? I know we bring plenty of rads along when we fight him! |
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
There's a significant amount of in game lore that indicates that Praetorian Hamidon is more powerful than Primals - starting with the fact that it withstood nuclear attack.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Or you could take ownership for your words instead of insisting now that they don't count. Whichever.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Now please don't start quoting things I said in an attempt to show that I meant something other than what I just said.
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This might have more weight if there were already some sort of legitimate alternative in place. It's already established that the Resistance was all their own disparate bunches of anarchist factions until Scott stepped up. Scott giving up control leads to situations just as bad as him taking it. There are good people in the Resistance, just like there are good people in the Praetorian government. The problem is that none of them have any sort of way to claim legitimate power in it. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
That's the slippery slope argument. And it's always been rubbish to me. Each decision you make is an opportunity to turn back. Just because you take the fight to the tyrant doesn't mean you're going to decide all of a sudden that you want to sit on his throne. Sure, that happens throughout history, but there's also plenty of times the usurper allows someone else the reins.
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| Even then, I disagree that Cole fit that model. There's plenty of evidence that Hamidon isn't as signficant a threat as its made out to be. Primal Hamidon is well contained. |
To reference the medium from which the game draws inspiration, think about the X-Men villain, Apocalypse. Whenever he shows up, the heroes manage to dispatch him, sometimes with laughable ease for a guy who's built up as such a threat. And yet, we still had the old "Age of Apocalypse" crossover back in the '90s where this same "well contained" villain managed to live up to his name quite nicely in the end, simply because he managed to catch the heroes off guard with an overwhelming strike. Praetorian Hamidon was the same way. A more dangerous villain required more drastic measures. But like the Resistance says, drastic measures are justified when you're fighting against a greater evil.
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Why use nuclear weapons that would cause a ton of collateral damage and render the area radioactive and uninhabitable and might not kill the people you want to kill anyway when you've got a bunch of walking pocket nukes that you can precision-aim at the exact target you want to take down?|
Originally Posted by Venture
(One of the reasons why I can't get interested in the new trials is that they don't present any tactical problems that are actually better solved with small groups of superheroes instead of an air strike.)
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Did we ever try to nuke our Hami? I know we bring plenty of rads along when we fight him!
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Originally Posted by Lazarillo
A more dangerous villain required more drastic measures. But like the Resistance says, drastic measures are justified when you're fighting against a greater evil.
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ok blithly skipping over most of the thread since its a topic that a small and vocal number of posters have been banging on about in about 10 threads now (ok, that im tired of) no, not tired at all with praetoria at all, thanks for asking. it isn't my first choice for a direction of the game, i'd have done the shadow shard myself, but its also better than i thought. i hated praetoria when it was first ingame because it actually was just a dumb bizzarro world and worse, given my preference at the time for soloing and small goup play with some rl friends the "every frikking mission ends with an av fight" used to chap my daintys. then the valentines day patch came around and it was at least mostly playable, if still boring(vintage marauder is still a tough fight for a ma/sr) but as for the story, yeah i did like what they did with it.
the primary problem with bizarro worlds is they are internally underdeveloped. everyone just flips sides and its just assumed that things carry on mostly the same but a bit worse, paretoria at least made an attempt to integrate some of the elements from some of the better sci-fi fascists to make Praetoria at once chilling and yet oddly, if you ignored some stuff that everyday people wouldn't see, you can see why it mostly would work for people. so from that perspective, the amount of fleshing out, as well as the callbacks to fictional greats like minority report and 1984 works for me, it make a bare bones concept into a workable fleshed out reality.
as for the integration of the well? well, as a realist i understand that timelines intersect, and if the endgame a lot of other people wanted came about around the time they were sending out going rogue and the whole praetoria thing, i dont really have a problem with it, video games are video games and you cant just pretend that they work on the same logistics as comic books, any implementation would have ticked of an equally vocal group of people. i currently have 4 incarnates of vastly disparate backgrounds and have yet to really need to take a wrench to the fiction as presented, you adapt this or that and it works seamlessly. and 3 of them are at their rare alpha already just from pugging with my server global channel.
As i see it, the story isnt fully told yet and people are really just jumping off on their own conclusions at the moment, we still havent seen more of the hamidon than a giant carrion creeper vine knocking at the door trying to sell us avon, but i suspect that the story is still building to one of many possible interesting climaxes(given that a dev quote previously suggested that hami would have evolved differently in prae, slight hope for dinosaurs) but i really try to hold off on any full judgment of something till it has completed, have had stories suddenly start to work after a period of meandering("the world ends with you" comes to mind) and some stories crash and burn at the big reveal(grandia 2) so i just go along for the ride, enjoy what i always have enjoyed (making cool costumes and kicking lots of people) and leave the plotting of the game to the developers, because honestly, they are the ones who are going to do the resolution anyhow, and likely have the full thing mapped out for months now.
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I said "air strike" not "nuke 'em". Neither the BAF or Lambda would require a nuclear strike, based on what we've been told.| Why use nuclear weapons that would cause a ton of collateral damage and render the area radioactive and uninhabitable and might not kill the people you want to kill anyway when you've got a bunch of walking pocket nukes that you can precision-aim at the exact target you want to take down? |
Of course, that's assuming we're sticking with Mr. No WMD's arbitrary pronouncements.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Yeah. Lesser of two evils still leaves you with a whole lot of evil. But good job defending slaughtering a pile of innocent civilians in a pure and simple terrorism plot to prevent a guy from keeping those civilians alive and oppressed. Of course, if they had preferred to be dead over oppressed, they could have done that themselves. You've just ripped that choice away from them though and used them as pawns for your own gains, huh? Wow... soooo much better than Cole!
I've said it in other places, I want Scott to win, I don't want him to rule. I'm gratified that he seems to have no real desire to do so. He's a soldier. A soldier in a conflict against a foe whose resources and powers are almost limitless. You condemn him while excusing a madman.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.