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Powers have a property indicating the targets that can be auto-hit in the abstract area before the power's individual effects are taken into account. This is the element that factors into the streak breaker, to my understanding, and the effects with hit rolls are merely subsequent if the power itself happens to land.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Are we sure this is true if the power includes requirements for hit rolls, even though it's auto-hit?
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However, the purpose of this test is to see if those individual effect hit rolls affect the streak breaker, since I can't see any other way for Aliana Blue to have been able to take those screenshots.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
words
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It's Gauntlet. I ran into this a few years ago and reported it to Castle (I don't recall a response, so it's probably WOI, or at least acceptable to them). Note that it only happens to Tankers, and only if you have another foe in Gauntlet range.
Also, unless there has been a change, I'm 95% (har har) sure that Gauntlet is also not Auto-Hit. In fact, it used to throw up "miss" text.
When I say "Gauntlet", I'm not talking about the single-target taunt on the power that has been there since release. That's always been auto-hit (though there were changes where it didn't work on AVs for a while, which then later was changed to the -20% tohit check, though RedTomax is showing that as only Raid mobs and not AVs and higher, which is new to me). I'm talking about the AoE taunt, which I'm pretty sure is handled separately.
Basically, what Sarrate said is what is going on.
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All tanker single target attacks with Gauntlet taunt effects are AoEs, and definitely roll tohit rolls as AoEs against every target within range until they hit their target cap. These rolls don't show up in the combat chat, but they do affect the streakbreaker.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
I hadn't considered it before, but I think Tenzhi is probably right. To the best of my knowledge, the way Tanker single target attacks (ie: those eligible for Gauntlet) work is by having all their target specific effects have a radius of 0, while the taunt effect has a radius of X. So the attacks are AoEs, but only the taunt effect can hit anything other than your primary target. (This is why in I4 Tankers could hit multiple mobs with stacked mobs.)
This would imply that Gauntlet's AoE requires a tohit check, and I've previously noticed that AoEs can streakbreak themselves. So, I'd guess is a Gauntlet tick missed something forcing your second attack to hit. |
As to autohitting attacks, autohitting attacks do not roll tohit rolls and so cannot affect the streakbreaker on their own. However, if they have special effects that perform random roll checks explicitly, those rolls may affect the streakbreaker. I haven't tested to be certain, but I suspect they do.
I agree that is the most likely cause of the apparent streakbreaker malfunctions.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
All tanker single target attacks with Gauntlet taunt effects are AoEs, and definitely roll tohit rolls as AoEs against every target within range until they hit their target cap. These rolls don't show up in the combat chat, but they do affect the streakbreaker.
As to autohitting attacks, autohitting attacks do not roll tohit rolls and so cannot affect the streakbreaker on their own. However, if they have special effects that perform random roll checks explicitly, those rolls may affect the streakbreaker. I haven't tested to be certain, but I suspect they do. I agree that is the most likely cause of the apparent streakbreaker malfunctions. |
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So it's the AoE Gauntlet then (I had left the tank doing auto-barrage one-on-one on Marauder overnight, and found out this morning the game had frozen and I had almost nothing in terms of logs, bah).
So now my question is... How can a Gauntlet miss on -6 underlings (the monkeys) allow for three consecutive rolls of the dice without the streakbreaker stepping in? Because that really doesn't make any sense - only thing we could think of was the -20% tohit that's supposed to be vs. special mobs to be happening with everything, and that still falls short of how easy it is to hit those monkeys.
Any other tanks with something other than EM can check this? It happens often enough not to be hard to check (just see if the dice rolls sometimes after a miss, or if you get a "forced by the streakbreaker" message every time). Or someone else with EM on a tank to confirm I'm not going crazy... I'm starting to suspect the server just hates me.
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Does this adversely affect Tankers' performance in the long run, I wonder?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
All tanker single target attacks with Gauntlet taunt effects are AoEs, and definitely roll tohit rolls as AoEs against every target within range until they hit their target cap. These rolls don't show up in the combat chat, but they do affect the streakbreaker.
As to autohitting attacks, autohitting attacks do not roll tohit rolls and so cannot affect the streakbreaker on their own. However, if they have special effects that perform random roll checks explicitly, those rolls may affect the streakbreaker. I haven't tested to be certain, but I suspect they do. I agree that is the most likely cause of the apparent streakbreaker malfunctions. |
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This is a good point. If Gauntlet only fires off on a hit, then with a 95% tohit chance you still should never have 2 consecutive misses, or 1 miss followed by a to-hit roll. The second attack after a miss should still trigger the streakbreaker, because the attack before it missed.|
Originally Posted by Aliana Blue
So now my question is... How can a Gauntlet miss on -6 underlings (the monkeys) allow for three consecutive rolls of the dice without the streakbreaker stepping in?
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I think this means that either Gauntlet fires off even on a miss, or it performs tohit checks but somehow doesn't have a taunt effect unless the source attack hits (which sounds unlikely to me, but may be possible with pseudo pets and/or temp powers as far as I know).
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Thing is, Gauntlet can fire if you miss. All Tanker single target attacks are aoes with a single target component. Imagine Fireball where the smashing portion only hits the primary target. Just because you miss the primary target doesn't mean Fireball won't still roll against other targets in it's radius. So, if you miss target 1, the streakbreaker would force Gauntlet to hit target 2.
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Originally Posted by Liquid
This is a good point. If Gauntlet only fires off on a hit, then with a 95% tohit chance you still should never have 2 consecutive misses, or 1 miss followed by a to-hit roll. The second attack after a miss should still trigger the streakbreaker, because the attack before it missed.
I think this means that either Gauntlet fires off even on a miss, or it performs tohit checks but somehow doesn't have a taunt effect unless the source attack hits (which sounds unlikely to me, but may be possible with pseudo pets and/or temp powers as far as I know). |
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Yeah, it wasn't really clearly stated that way in this thread (hence the OP's continued confusion about it in the post I quoted), so I thought it should be clarified. However, I didn't want to state that it fired off if you missed because I wasn't sufficiently sure of it. So I threw out that second idea as the only other possibility I could think of.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Thing is, Gauntlet can fire if you miss. All Tanker single target attacks are aoes with a single target component. Imagine Fireball where the smashing portion only hits the primary target. Just because you miss the primary target doesn't mean Fireball won't still roll against other targets in it's radius. So, if you miss target 1, the streakbreaker would force Gauntlet to hit target 2.
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On a related note, does Illusion: Blind fire its AoE sleep even if the hold misses?
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Don't think so. The sleep is caused by a pseudo pet, which won't be created if the main power misses its target. Today, this power would be created as an AoE where the hold is restricted to the origin of the power (zero radius). But at the beginning of time when they designed Illusion, they didn't have that feature.
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Originally Posted by Liquid
On a related note, does Illusion: Blind fire its AoE sleep even if the hold misses?
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In purely offensive damaging terms, I guess it will have some minor effect. Not by much most of the time, though.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Does this adversely affect Tankers' performance in the long run, I wonder?
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Well that makes a lot of sense. It's not that I'm missing in a row, is that the streakbreaker is kicking in on Gauntlet every time (and doesn't show on the logs). Thought Gauntlet kicks in only if you hit.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Thing is, Gauntlet can fire if you miss. All Tanker single target attacks are aoes with a single target component. Imagine Fireball where the smashing portion only hits the primary target. Just because you miss the primary target doesn't mean Fireball won't still roll against other targets in it's radius. So, if you miss target 1, the streakbreaker would force Gauntlet to hit target 2.
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Thinking about it, it has a very curious implication. If one is down to only two mobs, then it should be impossible to see the usual streakbreaker behaviour in the logs, since it'll go like this:
1st attack on mob A.
Gauntlet on mob B.
2nd attack on mob A.
If the 1st hits:
- Gauntlet misses -> Streakbreaker hits on 2nd attack.
- Gauntlet hits -> Hit or Miss for 2nd attack.
If the 1st misses:
- Gauntlet Streakbreaks -> Hit or Miss for 2nd attack.
I'll check this later dragging a single monkey on a pylon, but it's kind of funny.
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If a Tanker attacks with a 95% hit chance and misses with another enemy in Gauntlet range, the streak breaker will force Gauntlet to hit the next target since you're only allowed 1 miss per 95% chance streak. This renders the streak breaker useless, and it's a situation that Tankers often find themselves in.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Does this adversely affect Tankers' performance in the long run, I wonder?
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The numbers are difficult to conceptualize in any form of tangible debuff... I guess you could say it this way: For two consecutive attacks with 95% chance to hit, if the first one misses, most characters will have had a 95% + 100% hit chance. Tankers on the other hand, with another foe in Gauntlet range, have 95% + 95% hit chance. That means 5% chance to miss (1 out of 20) for both attacks, which comes out to 1 out of 400 to miss both.
While the difference is negligible, it's nonetheless there. When there's more than one enemy around, Tankers suffer a roughly 0.25% chance of missing twice in a row even with a hard capped hit chance. Most characters have a 0% chance of missing twice in a row.
Sooo, I dunno. I guess you could call it an average quarter-of-a-percent damage debuff in the long run. So take your Tanker's DPS and multiply it by 0.9975... Not a big deal.
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So, I ended up running that two-mob test on AE. With an AV plus a Rikti Infantry in range, it behaved just as I expected: Streakbreaker after some hits when gauntlet misses, streakbreaker never kicking in after one miss.
Interestingly, if what I had next to the AV was a Guardian (no melee attacks) I couldn't get the odd behaviour to trigger, streakbreaker worked as "expected". I suspect it has something to do with the mob not being where my client think it is, but it's a bit odd nonetheless.
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Increase Bruising to 20.25%? ^_^
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Sooo, I dunno. I guess you could call it an average quarter-of-a-percent damage debuff in the long run. So take your Tanker's DPS and multiply it by 0.9975... Not a big deal.
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Its less than that, because if there are more than two targets in the area you'll only lose the streakbreaker advantage if the streakbreaker itself triggers on the last gauntlet target. If it doesn't but the last gauntlet target *misses* at 95%, you'll get a forced streakbreaker hit on the next attack due to that miss.
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
If a Tanker attacks with a 95% hit chance and misses with another enemy in Gauntlet range, the streak breaker will force Gauntlet to hit the next target since you're only allowed 1 miss per 95% chance streak. This renders the streak breaker useless, and it's a situation that Tankers often find themselves in.
The numbers are difficult to conceptualize in any form of tangible debuff... I guess you could say it this way: For two consecutive attacks with 95% chance to hit, if the first one misses, most characters will have had a 95% + 100% hit chance. Tankers on the other hand, with another foe in Gauntlet range, have 95% + 95% hit chance. That means 5% chance to miss (1 out of 20) for both attacks, which comes out to 1 out of 400 to miss both. While the difference is negligible, it's nonetheless there. When there's more than one enemy around, Tankers suffer a roughly 0.25% chance of missing twice in a row even with a hard capped hit chance. Most characters have a 0% chance of missing twice in a row. Sooo, I dunno. I guess you could call it an average quarter-of-a-percent damage debuff in the long run. So take your Tanker's DPS and multiply it by 0.9975... Not a big deal. . |
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On the flip-side, you could say that in a worst-case scenario, normal characters can miss 50% of the time, but Tankers can miss 100% of the time. That's like... a 100% debuff!
Like I said, it's hard to express this concept in anything remotely close to concrete.
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Actually, its easy to express the concept in concrete terms: the streakbreaker is a Bernoulli trial serial dependency which alters the statistical distribution of successes for pseudo-random discontinuous samplings in a non-linear way.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Like I said, it's hard to express this concept in anything remotely close to concrete.
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Of course, no one will understand that, that didn't have an absolutely perfect understanding of it before.
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NON-LINEAR?!!|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Actually, its easy to express the concept in concrete terms: the streakbreaker is a Bernoulli trial serial dependency which alters the statistical distribution of successes for pseudo-random discontinuous samplings in a non-linear way.
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The way I look at it is this - with a 95% to-hit, the minimum overall hit rate you can expect is 1 out of 2, or 50%, if the game hates you, which I've seen extend over three streakbreaker hits, at times. The minimum a Tanker without a Streakbreaker can expect to see is 0% over several attacks.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
The numbers are difficult to conceptualize in any form of tangible debuff... I guess you could say it this way: For two consecutive attacks with 95% chance to hit, if the first one misses, most characters will have had a 95% + 100% hit chance. Tankers on the other hand, with another foe in Gauntlet range, have 95% + 95% hit chance. That means 5% chance to miss (1 out of 20) for both attacks, which comes out to 1 out of 400 to miss both.
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Moreover, this eliminates a tactical advantage that the Streakbreaker provides, that being guaranteed hits. If, for instance, the Energy Punch on my Energy Melee Brute misses, then I will immediately follow that with either Total Focus or Energy Transfer, swapping targets if necessary, to ensure that this one particular very important attack will land a guaranteed streakbreaker hit. A Tanker with a malfunctioning streakbreaker lacks this option.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Even easier: Ash limestone composite cement construction granite.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Actually, its easy to express the concept in concrete terms: the streakbreaker is a Bernoulli trial serial dependency which alters the statistical distribution of successes for pseudo-random discontinuous samplings in a non-linear way.
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Well, in concrete terms in any case.
Though for what it's worth "a non-linear way" is about as specific as "Up to 15% or more off!"
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Interestingly, this may be suboptimal. If an attack is queued, it can be ready to fire when the server determines the player can use another attack, and network lag is not an issue. However, if you see the miss and decide to switch, you could slow down that attack by a fraction of a second. The precise mechanics of how this happens is something I do not know all the details of, but I know it happens because the enhanced crit in Eagle's Claw provides some visibility into the issue. A queued attack will be buffed, but if you switch attacks then even though you might think if you switch before the attack fires there won't be a delay, there is one and its just enough to take that attack outside the buff window of the EC crit boost. Its probably between an eighth of a second and a quarter second, but that might be a higher damage penalty than the benefit you get from using a better attack on a known streakbreaker forced hit.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Moreover, this eliminates a tactical advantage that the Streakbreaker provides, that being guaranteed hits. If, for instance, the Energy Punch on my Energy Melee Brute misses, then I will immediately follow that with either Total Focus or Energy Transfer, swapping targets if necessary, to ensure that this one particular very important attack will land a guaranteed streakbreaker hit. A Tanker with a malfunctioning streakbreaker lacks this option.
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How this happens exactly probably has something to do with "prediction"** although it might also be a similar but unrelated effect.
** Prediction is, without going into details I don't want to get into, essentially the difference between movement and attacks. When you execute a power, that command has to go to the servers, the servers decide what happens, and then tell your client. But when you move, you just move: there is no lag, because your movement is executed by the client immediately, and then the server is notified. The client and the server try to keep things in sync with prediction algorithms and animation mechanics, but when the client moves you and the server decides not to honor that act, you get "rubberbanding." Your client keeps letting you move, then the server keeps telling your client it thinks you're somewhere else because it doesn't know about or isn't allowing the movement the game client "tentatively" allowed.
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I think Samuel's point was that he uses the streak breaker to land hits. Nothing more. He doesn't strike me as a min/maxer.
And frankly, I agree. I hate it every single time Knockout Blow misses, but when Weaken misses, it's not so bad.
I wouldn't expect that to count against the streakbreaker when not actually fighting a raid critter, but that doesn't mean it might not.
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