BA or SS/Invuln for damage

Hi everyone. So, I finally got an idea for an invuln tank (my first one). Staying true to my theme of all animal characters, and because it's possible now with the new animal pack, I made a minotaur named Bison (a character I played in a pen and paper rpg a couple years ago.) I can get some really good res and def numbers with him on mids, but my problem is this. I want to give him the best damage output I can within the limits of these two sets, BA and SS, but I haven't played BA before. How does it stack up as far as damage in comparison to SS? Also, because rage is pretty much the cornerstone of SS, is that -20% def when it crashes going to be a problem that I'll have to pay attention to or is it not gonna be a big deal?

Here are the two builds I figured out on Mids. Lemme know what you think.

SS:

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...ACF31F2DA8E5D1

BA:

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...51E73FE3E9EA20

This is probably an old and tired topic, but I really appreciate any advice you guys can give me

Also, the purple sets are unnecessary, I just wanted to see what it would look like with a little more recharge. I could also take 1 slot out of somewhere so that I can slot rage/build up with Gaussain's for a little more def but all that stuff is just tinkering. If it will make a big difference let me know.
ty ty

The Rage crash isn't really a noticeable issue for an Inv tank, barring a few extraordinary circumstances.

TI, UY, and Invinc should all be taken as soon as they're available, so I wouldn't put off Invincibility even if it's only to 22. I'd also put at least one more slot into it (LotG Defense). The passives really don't need to be that early: I usually take them in the thirties or fourties.

I would five-slot DP with Doctored Wounds for the recharge bonus. Likewise, I'd add one more slot to Taunt for the recharge bonus. There's an extra 12.5% recharge just from moving a single slot.

You probably don't really need Health five slotted. Pull two and find a better spot for them, liken Invincibility.

On the BA build, change the sixth slot in Build Up to another Gaussians for the def bonus.

I wouldn't personally take Unstoppable, but if you want to keep it you could push it back to the last pick to get PP earlier.

I'm sure some mids expert will come along with better advice, but those are a few things I see that I would change.

Did a little tinkering to include your suggestions. Good calls, all of them.

SS:

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A few more things I would change:

You should NOT be delaying Invinc until 22. The resistance passives can easily be delayed so you can get Invinc at 18. Taking Punch earlier instead of ResEl would be a good idea too.

The attacks that are four-slotted are underslotted, IMO, especially the KC sets. I'd try to find another slot for each.

Also, if you just want the 3-slot bonuses from Aegis, put them in the passives and put the Reactive Armor sets in the toggles.

Tough is poorly slotted; the Psi/status IO is next to worthless for a Invul tank and it's seriously underslotted for end reduction and resistance. Put a RA set in there instead.

Once Tough is adequately slotted, you won't need to slot RPD so heavily, and frankly, I don't think capping F/C defense is a very high priority. I'd pull a couple of slots from RPD and use them elsewhere--for instance, to make sure your attacks are well slotted and to put another slot in Hasten.

Here are the changes I would make to the SS build; you could do something similar to the BA build.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.92
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Bison: Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Resist Physical Damage -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(A), ResDam-I:50(5)
Level 1: Jab -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(5), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(23)
Level 2: Temp Invulnerability -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(9), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(9), RctvArm-ResDam:40(11)
Level 4: Punch -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg:50(A), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(7), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(7), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx:50(11), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg:50(13)
Level 6: Dull Pain -- Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx:50(13), Dct'dW-Heal:50(15), Dct'dW-Rchg:50(15), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg:50(17)
Level 8: Haymaker -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(17), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(19), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(19), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(31)
Level 10: Unyielding -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam:40(21), RctvArm-EndRdx:40(21), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(23)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 16: Taunt -- Mocking-Taunt:50(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg:50(25), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng:50(25), Mocking-Taunt/Rng:50(27), Mocking-Rchg:50(27), Mocking-Acc/Rchg:50(48)
Level 18: Invincibility -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:50(29), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(29)
Level 20: Knockout Blow -- Hectmb-Dmg:50(A), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg:50(31), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(31), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg:50(33), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx:50(36)
Level 22: Resist Energies -- Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx:50(A), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg:50(33), Aegis-ResDam:50(48)
Level 24: Resist Elements -- Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx:50(A), Aegis-ResDam:50(34), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg:50(36)
Level 26: Tough Hide -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg:50(46), LkGmblr-Def:50(48)
Level 28: Rage -- GSFC-ToHit:50(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg:50(33), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx:50(34), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx:50(34), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx:50(36), GSFC-Build%:50(50)
Level 30: Boxing -- Dmg-I:50(A)
Level 32: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(37), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(37), RctvArm-ResDam:40(50)
Level 35: Hurl -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg:50(37), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx:50(39), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(39), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg:50(39), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(40)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg:50(A), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx:50(40), C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg:50(40), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:30(42), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:30(42), Erad-Dmg:30(42)
Level 41: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:50(43), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(43), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(43)
Level 44: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I:30(A)
Level 47: Physical Perfection -- P'Shift-End%:50(A)
Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(50)
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Musculature Radial Paragon
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:50(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+:40(45), RgnTis-Regen+:30(46), Numna-Heal:50(46)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%:50(A), EndMod-I:50(45), EndMod-I:50(45)
------------
Set Bonus Totals:

• 2.5% DamageBuff(Smashing)
• 2.5% DamageBuff(Lethal)
• 2.5% DamageBuff(Fire)
• 2.5% DamageBuff(Cold)
• 2.5% DamageBuff(Energy)
• 2.5% DamageBuff(Negative)
• 2.5% DamageBuff(Toxic)
• 2.5% DamageBuff(Psionic)
• 12.38% Defense(Melee)
• 18% Defense(Smashing)
• 18% Defense(Lethal)
• 13.63% Defense(Fire)
• 13.63% Defense(Cold)
• 16.13% Defense(Energy)
• 16.13% Defense(Negative)
• 3% Defense(Psionic)
• 13.31% Defense(Ranged)
• 10.19% Defense(AoE)
• 3.6% Max End
• 38% Enhancement(Accuracy)
• 4% Enhancement(Heal)
• 57.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
• 9% FlySpeed
• 175.69 HP (9.375%) HitPoints
• 9% JumpHeight
• 9% JumpSpeed
• MezResist(Held) 2.75%
• MezResist(Immobilize) 11%
• MezResist(Terrorized) 2.2%
• 9.5% (0.159 End/sec) Recovery
• 42% (3.286 HP/sec) Regeneration
• 3.78% Resistance(Fire)
• 3.78% Resistance(Cold)
• 19% RunSpeed

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Oh, and IMO Musculature is NOT a good choice for a Invul tank; the additional damage you'll gain from it is trivial. I'd get Cardiac if you need the additional endurance, or Spiritual for the recharge bonus instead.

Musculature is not a good choice for any AT, except maybe in rare circumstances where you mostly need the increase to effects other than damage. This is mostly because the damage bonus is added to all of your other damage bonuses, including enhancements.

OP: Are you completely set on Invulnerability? I think Willpower might also work with your minotaur theme. Willpower would be better in situations where S/L is not the primary damage type, like in incarnate content. I'm just throwing that out there so you can consider other sets.

Very very helpful criticism everyone, i appreciate it.

Re: musculature...
Totally understandable. I thought it might make a difference in how hard my attacks hit, but thank you for correcting me.

Re: Invuln vs Wp...
I would totally consider willpower except I have a WP/SS tank already. He's my gorilla, Silverback . He's absolutely great, I love playing with him.

Does anyone have any input on which would end up more satisfying as far as damage output, SS or BA? I'm pretty sure I'm gonna go with SS, but if anyone has any last minute arguments in favor of Axe, I'd be happy to hear them.

BA will likely be smoother for levelling, with a selection of AoE and ST attacks earlier. SS will likely be better for AoE due to Footstomp. BA is also resisted slightly more that other sets because of its lethal damage. For endgame content and farming, SS is probably the better choice because Footstomp is that good. That said, none of the sets is badly balanced as to be lacking or underwhelming in my experience.

I would go with BA just because you've played a /SS tanker before. Avoid robot enemies and you won't feel like poking your eyes out.

Excellent. Thanks a bunch

Musculature is *currently* a poor choice. W/Judgement coming around the corner, an extra 30% or 45% damage for those nukes is sounding mighty tasty (~700 point, 40', 32 target fireballs every 90s? Yes, please). Still, Spritual (for faster & bigger DP, faster Rage & FT, etc) or Cardiac (limitless end, more resists) are both solid choices. Nerve's def bonuses are kinda weak, and Rage will give you all the to hit you'll ever need.

SS >> BA for both ST & AoE damage. By quite a bit, actually. Only Fire beats SS for AoE damage (and ST damage too, but there are other contenders for tanker ST damage king as well).

My first tank was Invuln/Battle Axe, who was my first tank to 50. I'm working on a Shield/SS, who is in the 40's but I wouldn't say I'm an expert on Super Strength.

In terms of overall damage? Super Strength may be preferred due to Rage, but Axe is a fun set . . . with three AoE options vs. one for SS. Whirling Axe is 360 degrees, Penduluum is 180 degrees, and then Cleave is one of those narrow cones that hits hard, but you have to line up foes pretty tightly to get more than one, similar to Dark Melee's Shadow Maul or Broadsword's Headsplitter. Do not underestimate the benefits of Knockdown/Knock up in every attack . . . jumping into a crowd and hitting Whirling Axe-Penduluum will result in a bunch of foes on their butts after two satisfying "SCRUNCH" attacks. Then you get knockdown or knockup chances on all the single target attacks, too. And you don't have to wait until level 38 for your only AoE attack.

Lethal is more resisted than Smashing, and SS may have more damage overall, but Battle Axe is still a fun set. And you get to hit your foes with a frickin' AXE.

I think currently, that's the only way to boost Judgement's damage, other than via debuffs (so, basically, Cold/Son defenders ftw, more so than now come I20). Still in beta so subject to change, obv.

It has to due with Rage being Doubled or even Triple Stacked. Footstomp ends up hitting.. hard... VERY HARD.

And the damage buff affects AoE attacks from both the secondary and APP.

If you ask me, Electric Melee is a seriously good set for AoE's. Got some awesome AoE's in it. And it packs a wallop of smashing + energy damage.

One side of the Musculature tree does offer a boost to Endurance powers, this includes stamina. Indeed it was actually powerful enough for me to equip my plant/storm controller with a little more +rech now that I had more endurance recovery. Something to consider

Inv/Axe as others have stated, is a fun set. Indeed when I made my inv/axe it overshot a few others to become my first 50. Its very team orientated in its soft control and aoe mix of attacks.

For damage though, Go Super Strength!

I've been around since day one but new to Tanking (I think I have every known Scrapper combo at 50 known to man) and I really took a lot out of this topic...thanks for the notes on how to change up my new lvl 50 INV/SS tanker.

I just wanted to toss out there; I don't know if it would have the same impact in an INV tanker as it does for my Inv scrapper but the one change i made years ago that made ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD TO ME was when

I changed Invinvibility to 4 slots: 3 cytos and 1 LOTG global. I can't even begin to explain the difference that made for me on that toon.

Just a thought.