Buying new computer - looking for guidance

Hello, forum gurus and fellow info seekers!

I humbly plead your assistance.

My current computer is rapidly dying. Sadly the time has come for a new desktop.

Since I am only a simple computer user, after a week of searching I got overwhelmed by all the knowledge needed to select a compatible, healthy computer.

Another desktop with Window 7 32-bit is highly preferred. Possibly a new monitor, if my current one would not play nice with a new system. I'm happy with the wireless keyboard/mouse currently used, but again would be willing to replace/upgrade if they were in conflict with the new system.

I would like to have one bought and up and running before April, but can wait a bit if what would work best will be out on the market in the next few weeks. Though, really, I think whatever is one or two steps below the very top will be more than sufficient.

The City Of Heroes MMO and forums are half the reason I have a computer. Currently not playing or intending to play any other computer/MMO games, as I happily have my latest veteran badge Resolute (75 months) and looking to double that investment. As long as looking for a new computer, I'd like one that would be able to run City Of Heroes in windowed mode with the Ultra setting maxed out and never notice lag on Freedom short of a RWZ raid. Is such a thing possible? If I am understanding it correctly, je_saist'S Ultra Mode guide implies maxed Ultra Mode with 25-30 FPS is doable with the right video card.

I'm partial towards nvidia, even with the problems of overheating. From what I've read on the forums threads (and what I've understood of their links to buyer guides) so far, it sounds like a GTX 570 would be too much unless using a 30" monitor (which I'm not opposed to), and otherwise look at a system built around a GTX 560 Ti. The only reason I'm not set and sure about the GTX 560 Ti is it comes pre-overclocked, and if that requires special monitoring/knowledge/usage then it would be beyond my keen.

Otherwise I use a computer for enjoying movies/music on DVDs, CDs, YouTube, iTunes, etc. Other misc activities are browsing the internet with Firefox, composing files in Notepad, Word, and Excel, plus tweaking pictures in Paint. I tend to have ten+ windows open at a time for multi-tasking and cross-referencing (aka scatterbrain), but I prefer only one large screen over a dual monitors setup. I do store lots of files, so at least a 600 GB hard drive would be desired. A DVD-R or DVD-RW drive as a double-backup to my external hard drive would be nice. (Not planning to participate in Blu-Ray.) Sound/speakers is almost a non-issue, as 99% of the time I wear headphones for RL reasons.

I am not interested in Photoshop, any video editing, or similar advanced skills. My only 'talent' in such areas is appreciation, and I am satisfied with that. As stated before I don't do overclocking, as I have only learned enough to know I don't know enough and better not do it.

* deep breath *

So, would I be able to find such a system pre-boxed in a place like Costco, Best Buy, or their peers? If so, which one(s) would be the best choice to last 4-5 years without upgrading bits and pieces, which is my only "must have" requirement? Or will I need to start planning out a custom-build desktop? Cost will be a final deciding factor, not an initial limiter. Currently residing in MST, USA.

Thank you very, very much for taking the time to read through all this and for any help, advice, opinions, and/or feedback you offer!

~Yydr

Put into Hyperstrike's format:

1) What will you primarily be doing with this PC? Gaming? Photoshop? Web browsing? etc
Primary - City Of Heroes MMO and forums
Other primary - movies/music on DVD/iTunes, web browsing through Firefox, and misc file composing in Notepad, Word, Excel, and Paint.

2) What's your budget? Are tax and shipping included?
Cost is a final deciding factor. I've seen [ULR="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showpost.php?p=3495202&postcount=9"]Father Xmas say[/URL] "For $2K (assuming US $) you can build a tiny god of a gaming PC." I think whatever I need for CoH and iTunes will be much less expensive than that. But let's say $2000 US limit: including taxes, OS/software, shipping, etc, everything between now and using the new computer.

3) Where do you live? This is important as it affects what vendors you may buy from and how much shipping costs might be.
MST, USA

4) Are you planning to buy or build?
I would prefer buying a pre-build system if there is one for my needs, but am not opposed to building.

5) What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. The word "Everything" is not a valid answer. Please list out all the parts you'll need. If you're unsure what exactly you need, say so.
The box and all its innards. I'm weak on knowing what goes on "under the hood", thus my pleas for help.

6) If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing? Please be especially specific about the power supply. List make and model.
If anything is reused, it would only be the monitor, keyboard, mouse, powerstrip, external hard drive, and router/network hardware. Looking to replace the entire box.

7) Will you be overclocking?
Not intentionally.

8) What size monitor do you have and/or plan to have?
Current monitor: HP w2408 24" widescreen LCD Monitor - resolution 1920 x 1200
Current keyboard: USB wireless HP model # KG-0636
Current mouse: USB wireless HP model # MG-0637T
Might replace the monitor/keyboard/mouse if a better one comes with a pre-build system, or new ones would be needed to better sync with the box.

9) When do you plan on building/buying the PC?
Would like to be logged in and playing CoH on the new box before April, please.

10) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? USB 3.0? SATA 6Gb/s? etc.
I have no idea... help!

11) Any specific must-have features? Must be able to max out Ultra-Mode? Must have 6+GB of RAM? Must have an SSD? etc.
"Must-have" is something that will last 4-5 years with no more normal work than dusting it out a couple times a year.
Preferences would be CoH maxed out Ultra mode at 25+ FPS on Freedom.
Further preferences would be a desktop, Windows 7 32-bit OS Home Edition, at least 600 GB hard drive, with DVD-R or DVD-RW drive.
Less pressing preferences would be at least eight USB ports, two of which accessible from the front with a front audio-out port for headphones.
RAM would be whatever would max the potential of the system, but I don't know what that number would be. Nor do I understand what the other questions are.

12) Are there any vendors/brands you'd specifically prefer to use?
I'm partial towards nvidia cards.

13) Are there any vendors/brands you'd specifically prefer to avoid?
Dell. Sorry, too many bad experiences.
Don't use TV/cable/etc, and would rather not have such related hardware/software cluttering up the system. Neither am I intending to use Photoshop or any video editing programs.

14) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If yes, what OS? Is it 32bit or 64bit? (Note: If your current OS came with your computer, odds are that it is NOT transferable.)
I can arrange to get Windows 7 32-bit OS Home Edition, anti-virus, etc software separately; and probably will need them as the previous computer software was pre-installed/upgraded.

I just purchased a new PC though Cyberpowerpc.com I normally build my own, but they have deals that are too hard to pass up, it looks like it will arrive in a few weeks. I went with the nvidia GTX 470, 2600k i7, 8GB RAM, 2x 1TB 7500 RPM Hardrives (raid 0), and asus mobo for under 1500 (much closer to 1400)

I hear Father Xmas footsteps coming towards this thread as I type (with Je_Saist not far behind)

I would *heavily* suggest going for 64bit windows 7 (stay away from Ultimate, Pro is enough for everything unless you want 37 extra languages).

Pretty much standard setup nowadays for new PC's is

4GB RAM, 1GB Gfx card... that by itself will force you above the 4GB limit of 32 bit windows.

Even 3GB RAM, 1 GB gfx card can cause 32 bit windows to misallocated (especially if you have a seperate sound card)

2GB RAM, 1GB gfx card though, that will be ok.. but has a good chance of limiting you later on...

Shhh! I'm hunting wabbits.

TechReport just put out a new list of systems designs.
bit-tech.net also have a recent list of system designs.

If you could, wait for the Sandy Bridge, Socket 1155 motherboards with the fixed chipset come back to market. They are scary fast for the money. If you were limited in budget then AMD is the way to go as Intel's value CPU line is still based on the now outdated Core 2 based Pentium line on Socket 775.

Now even if you don't want to build it yourself, you can take the info gleemed from those lists over to CyberPowerPC or iBUYPOWER and play with their system configurators. One thing I really don't like about those two places are their generic power supplies they push. I would pay the premium and get a brand name, well reviewed power supply than their cheap specials.

Edit: And don't forget the Microsoft Windows 7 tax.

One more thing about Cyberpower for sure is that they can and will switch any component out for an item that is "equal". So if you have a specific reason on selecting a part hope it does not get switched.

A lot of responses already! I am very encouraged.

Thank you nytflyr, for a ballpark to look at. It helped to know what system components you decided on. I hope you'll share how the system actually runs (and if Cyberpowerpc.com used any "equal" parts like Dissolution warned) after you have it running for a week or so.

Gangrel_EU, thank you very much for the advice. As I'm leaning towards getting 8 GB RAM, it seems that getting Windows 7 64bit OS Home edition (which will not be used for business purposes, so Pro edition would be excessive for me) will clearly be what I need instead of the 32bit. I probably would have missed that without your advice.

And Father_Xmas, thanks is not enough for your help here and in the other forum threads. My initial research was mostly based on your posts in the CoH Technical forum. I'm even encouraged to try for a custom build, though I would find someone locally (no shortage of people I trust for this) to do the actual assembly.

And thank you for the extra reminder on choosing a good power supply, Father_Xmas. I've had to replace half a box when upgrading a graphics card before because the corresponding power supply wouldn't fit in the old box (thus my only requirement being that the complete system last 4-5 years, as when I replace one part I tend to have to replace half of the others). Is it bad for a system to have too much amp/watt, or is the only concern for a power supply in making sure it is big enough at the minimum?

With all your recommendations, I read about a dozen more articles on Newegg and TechReport and bit-tech. Now my head is swimming with information that is badly getting jumbled up. Some areas I think I understand better now, thank you very much. But for actually deciding what to buy... I'm further away than before.



I still need help, please!



Because running City Of Heroes on high screen resolution with Ultra settings will be my biggest workout for a new computer, I think focusing on a graphics card and building the computer to support the card would be best.

I've narrowed it down to one of these three at this point as nvidia is my preference:

MSI GeForce GTX 560 Ti OC
EVGA GeForce GTX 470
Gigabyte GeForce GTX 460 1GB

These are all easily within my price range.

On the CoH forum threads I've read, GTX 560 Ti seems to be the highest praised. My only concern is that it comes pre-overclocked, and anything with the word overclock has me inherently intimidated. Will I have to know anything to make sure I don't burn out the card? Or can I treat it like any other non-overclocked graphics card?

GTX 470 was a comparable tier, according to tom's hardware, so that's the only reason it is a second choice.

I'm also looking at GTX 460 because of Tech Report's article calling it a happy medium which makes me think this card may actually be better than the GTX 560 Ti and GTX 470 because Tech Report presents it as the de-bulged version that does fundamentally better at being a graphics card. Is it?

Assuming I can afford the hardware (CPU, cooling, etc) to support all of these cards, which would be best for optimizing the City Of Heroes Ultra mode experience? Are the next two tiers (GTX 570 and GTX 580) magnificently better for playing City Of Heroes so that I need to look at them again?

Thank you so much for the continued help!!
~Yydr

In order of performance

GTX 460 - 675 MHz / 336 SPs - 160 watts worse case
GTX 470 - 607 MHz / 448 SPs - 215 watts
GTX 560Ti - 822 MHz / 384 SPs - 170 watts

At their default clocks the GTX 470 is about 20-25% faster than the GTX 460, the GTX 560Ti is 30%.

However when ATI came out with the HD 68xx series, nVidia basically encouraged manufacturers to really OC the GTX 460. Over 800 MHz is not uncommon. At around 850MHz the GTX 460 nearly catches up with the GTX 470 in performance. However overclocking increases power usage and in the case of a 850 MHz overclock, can be to the point that it exceeds the power use of a default clock GTX 470.

As for brands, eVGA, MSI and Asus are generally considered the best with eVGA being the premium.

This review from Tom's Hardware gives you an idea how clock speed affects performance and power requirements on the GTX 460.

As for the OC speed of that GTX 560Ti you linked to, that's a rather modest factory overclock. Gigabyte actually has one clocked to 1000MHz aka 1GHz. And remember these are manufacturers default overclock values. As long as you don't try for the record yourself, failure should be covered by the warranty.

If you can afford the GTX 560Ti, that's the way I would go. If not a relatively modest OC GTX 460 1GB. The GTX 470 is currently priced about the same as the GTX 560Ti but is slower and draws more power.

You've heard it before, but not enough: You are marvelous, Father_Xmas.

Thank you for putting it in terms and numbers a non-tech can follow, and writing it out twice (performance order and long-hand explanation) to be sure it was understood.

If the only concern is making sure the card gets enough power, I can do that. The GTX 560Ti it is.

Thank you!!

One other thing you may want to think about if you're just looking to crank the settings to 11.

If you're running at native resolution on your monitor with high levels of Antialiasing and Anisotropic filtering, you may or may not overtax the memory space of a 1GB vidcard.

Fortunately, there are options if you're going GTX 560 Ti.

The default clock is lower than some other models with less memory, but GPU performance is actually not the issue here.

While not as big a name as some of the other players, Palit makes some solid cards.

I also second Father's admonition to exercise a little restraint and wait for the newly fixed Sandy Bridge chipsets to hit the market.

Honestly, if you want to replace the keyboard and mouse, that's cool. I wouldn't replace the monitor unless you have something glaringly wrong with it.

So, you're pretty much looking at $2K straight up for "the box" alone. Needless to say, even if you DON'T break your bank with this, you're going to wind up with a machine that SCREAMS in CoH (and should be no slouch in heavy Notepad use either!)

Heck, if you're buying through Cyberpower, they even give you the option for a 2GB 560 Ti in the configurator for a price LESS THAN THAT PALIT CARD!

Granted, you're being nickel and dimed for it elsewhere but that's still a hell of a deal!

Honestly, even with the improvements in the game, I can't really recommend SLI for a CoH box.

Okay you specified Word and Excel. Do you need a copy of Office as well or will you get by with the free Office Starter Edition (basically office with ads built in).

Just using the X58 configurator as a guideline right now.

$1800 and some change shipped.
3.2Ghz i7 960 Processor
6GB RAM
80GB SSD (OS and CoH) Will speed up zone loads when the bottlenecks are the throughput of your "hard drive".
1GB Hard Drive (for storage and for your paging file).
Liquid cooling system
2GB GTX 560 Ti
Windows 7 Home Premium (64-bit)
650W Power Supply (Modular, so you don't leave a big cable mess in there)
Blu-Ray Reader-DVD burner
Default on-board sound (Honestly unless you're really an audiophile you're not going to tell the difference). If you really want to, you could drop the cash on a Xonar card.
Logitech G19 Gaming Keyboard

Left room for stuff like speakers, etc. As I wasn't sure if you'd want to replace them or not. Or if, like me, you're a headset gamer.

Now, if you go for a no-rush delivery, they take 5% off (about $90). But you get it shipped in 3 weeks.
Also keep in mind several of your components also come with mail-in rebates.

I wouldn't use the MIR as a way to "offset" the costs. Just pay straight out to the limit of your budget and stop. If you get money back later, GREAT!

Well, been up long enough, going to bed. Nite!

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

It's common for us old timers.

My first PC was a 12MHz 286 with a megabyte of zero wait state memory, a 20 megabyte hard drive and Hercules monochrome graphics (720x348). It cost $3K in 1988 with an 12" amber monitor (amber was the new green). After re-interleaving the hard drive with SpinRite I was able to get a transfer rate of an astonishing 150KB/s.

I still have the motherboard and it's HUGE compared to today's ATX format. The memory was 32, 32KB chips socketed onto the motherboard itself.

Wow, thank you Hyperstrike, you gave me a lot to think about.

I've been learning more about the Ultra Mode settings in re-reading je_saist's guide (for the fifth time in two weeks). From the screenshots and info there, it looks like maxing out all the settings is not needed, or even desired.

Mostly I wanted to be able to crank up all the settings without stretching the system because, in theory, then the system would hold up better and longer to the future City Of Hero graphic updates.

But I've come to the conclusion that if I can even get a computer to last three years I'll be lucky. That's how old my last computer was, and, now that I really think about it, the average life span of those before it, too.

So instead of building a leave-everything-in-the-dust computer, I think I'll be a touch more reserved and aim for a box in the ballpark of $1200 US, using the remainder towards another box in three years.

For the next three years the MSI GeForce GTX 560 Ti OC 1GB will be my choice. (Yes, it is partly because if I start second guessing that decision now, I'll be lucky to have a new computer by 2012.)

Enough rambling!

Thank you again, everyone! I'm going to combine these new thoughts with what I looked up last night and next tackle the motherboard/CPU.

I humbly request your further input, especially as I'm treading deep water without swimming lessons on this next part. Will you please continue guiding me with your wisdom?

Best bet is Window 7 64 bit you can get like Amd 3.2 ghz 6 core proc with 8 gig ram DDR3 Motherboard with USB v3 with least 2 ePCI v2 run dual video cards of the same brand. Video card should have more then enough power for the next 2-3 years for gaming. 1 process the graphics other can be PhyX processor and if one should die on your have a card to spare just reduce the settings.

I build my machine last year
24 in monitor
3.2 amd ph2 4x
8 gig of 1066 ram
Brand case
800 watt PSU
250 nividia
1 tb drive
Win7 pro full not OEM
Keyboard, mouse and Etc like cables.
All for 1300

One bit of good news.

The now "fixed" Sandy Bridge motherboards are starting to trickle back into supply. Get one of those nice Sandy Bridge Intel CPUs

That is all

I'm a fan of the "buy second-rank twice as often" than "spend twice as much for a really uber machine right now and try to eek out twice as long."

Of course, my gaming/windows PC retires to "the good life" as my or my wife's linux desktop after its gaming life is exhausted. Given that, a theoretical 2 year upgrade cycle on windows means a 6-year old linux box. While that's okay since linux is light on the resource-piggy aspects, that is starting to push pretty old for fans and HDDs to still be spinning right.

Side benefits: you have a backup box (if you don't just craigslist it) in case your main fails. You aren't screwing with SLI or CrossFire. You aren't wasting CPU/graphics HP at the start of its life but then being grossly underpowered by the end of its life.

Oh, and FWIW: when I picked up one of the intel G2 160 Gb SSDs last year it was the best upgrade I gave my gaming machine in years. Right now there is no reason to splurge on a $900 CPU over getting a $200 CPU and a $300 SSD.

No, it doesn't improve frame rate. Instead it improves load, patch, zone, boot, shutdown, and pretty much all the other waiting you do for your PC to catch up to you. Windows 7 can't finish the boot logo animation before it gets to the desktop.

Hail, gurus and fellow seekers!

Thank you, BlackArua, I will probably be in that ballpark of your comp by the end and it lets me know I'm headed in the right direction. And you, too, Rhysem, as it helps me feel better about not maxing out everything I can right this minute in favor of a more frequent upgrade.

newchemicals, do you have a link to news of the fixed Sandy Boards? I haven't seen anything about that.



New Computer, Part 3 - Motherboard & CPU

So far what I have decided on for a new custom-build computer is...



Motherboard:
Processor/CPU:
CPU cooler:
Memory: Kingston 8GB DDR3-1333 (( http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820139075 ))
Video Card: MSI GeForce GTX 560 Ti OC (( http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814127565 ))
Hard Drive:
Sound Card:
Optical Drive:
Power Supply:
Case:

Monitor: (reuse) HP w2408 24" widescreen LCD Monitor - resolution 1920 x 1200
Speakers: (reuse - integrated into Monitor)
Keyboard: (reuse) USB wireless HP model # KG-0636
Mouse: (reuse) USB wireless HP model # MG-0637T
External Hard Drive: (reuse) Maxtor OneTouch4 750 GB

Operating System: Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit 1-Pack for System Builders - OEM (( http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16832116754 ))



Still a lot to decide. This part is especially where I need everyone's help. Pretty please!



Next up is the all-important Mother Board and CPU, areas where my tech knowledge is virtually zero and the articles look Greek to me.

It is clear that the hot topic is "Sandy Bridge", but those are apparently broke for now. newchemicals said they are repaired, but I haven't found a news announcement on that yet. Either way, are they really the be-all-end-all of chip sets? They seem like first-generation of their kind. And I've even seen some articles/videos that show AMD is equal/better, but for all I know those reports have been skewed by game settings. Does anyone actual own a Sandy Bridge chipset and can vouch for its super status?

Based on Tech Report's review (which seems to be the ballpark system I'm aiming for at this time), the suggestion by Father_Xmas of AMD, and BlackArua's post if I understood correctly, an alternative looks like

Motherboard: Asus M4A87TD EVO (( http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131647 ))
Processor/CPU: AMD Phenom II X6 1090T BE (( http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103849 ))



I tried to do a Power Search for a CPU Cooler on newegg.com, but they all looked the same. What CPU Cooler, if any, would be most compatible and effective, up to a $35 limit, for the AMD? For a Sandy Bridge?

*** As far as you know, would either/both motherboards, processor/CPUs, memory, and monitor combination optimize the City Of Heroes game with the GeForce GTX 560 Ti 1GB graphics card?



Side thought: Would a second GeForce GTX 560 Ti 1GB help run City Of Heroes significantly better on this configuration? Would a second GeForce GTX 560 Ti 1GB card even be possible? I'm getting the impression that dual-graphics-card are the realm of $3k-$7k overkill boxes way beyond what I am looking for. More, Rhysem, Hyperstrike, and Father_Xmas have dismissed SLi/dual graphics cards as unneeded, the latter's guide to computer components even says that AMD/Intel chipsets and dual nvidia graphics cards are incompatible for SLi anyway.



Thank you so much for helping me along! I cannot express enough how much it means to not be working this out alone.

~Yydr

on newegg.com

motherboards>intel>1155

I saw 3 MSI and 2 biostar boards for sale now. I'm sure the other branded boards will show up soon(tm).

You make some very good points about the two video cards, Hyperstrike. Thank you for caring enough to take the time and put all that information up for evaluation!

And thank you, newchemicals, for the reference. Fingers crossed that the Sandy Bridge chips are actually ready to go.



Any further info on the Sandy Bridge chips? I really want to be talked into them, but so far the only articles I've found have talked about specs, not actual side-by-side comparisons with AMD and other competition in the same price range. Has anyone on the forums actually used them yet and can vouch for their fast processing?

The Sandy Bridge are very good. Unless you need a computer today, wait the few weeks it takes to get one.

Need convincing? Read this.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4083/t...i3-2100-tested

Tom's did an article earlier in the week on sub $200 CPUs and gaming. AM3, Socket 1156 and 1155 (Sandy Bridge) CPUs. Link to the conclusions page.