Revamp the Council

It seems pretty clear to me that the developers intend to have the Fifth Column return and be the premier evil mad science military force in the game. I'm sure there's an issue coming down the pipe where the Council is going to get curb-stomped and quietly wiped out of existence.

While a lot of long-time players would probably laud such a decision, I'm not so keen on it. I'm not a fan of retconning, especially when the story is less than a decade old. If you want to tell a different story, make a different character...

And that's essentially what the Council is. They may have overtaken the old Fifth Column content through an ill-advised Find/Replace while the Fifth Column was quietly "defeated" without any fanfare (which led to a lot of Veteran Rage), but I don't think another curbstomp victory is an adequate solution to the problem.

Over the years, the Council has developed its own identity (much to the chagrin of fans of the Fifth Column). Instead of a faction of Nazi spies led with the iron-fisted rule of Requiem, they are a conflicted and factionalized organization, delicately organized by the mysterious Center.

In the Ouroboros Task Force in which you help the Center take control of the Fifth Column forces and resources, it's established that the Fifth Column wasn't as unified as Requiem had imagined. Exploiting the disloyalty of certain members was apparently how the Center succeeded in defeating the Fifth Column...

...Which is story I think should be taken into consideration when the final iteration of these two warring factions is defined. As they stand, they're pretty much the same thing, just with a few tiny differences. In the end, the only thing really separating them is the Fifth Column's rocket launchers and the Council's Galaxy faction.

I think it would be fine if the Fifth Column kept the vampires, the werewolves and the weird-shaped robots. They fit the Fifth Column motif.

I would like to see the Council get a new motif. I don't mean the "Redneck Gun Nut" motif they seem to be adopting in some of the tip missions. I mean I want to see them develop their own, credible identity.

One suggestion I have personally is a focus on the super science that the Council use. I would like to see the array of sonic weaponry they deploy to be expanded some. Maybe they could yank some equipment from the Goldbrickers (or even bring some Goldbrickers into their ranks...).

A suggestion I've heard is that the Galaxy soldiers should be given Martial Arts attacks. Frankly, I would like to see that, too.

So long as they both have such similar builds, there will always be a question of whether or not one or the other should be eliminated. The redundancy of the two groups would make for a few interesting arcs in a comic book series, but in a video game it's proven to just simply be annoying.

Maybe the Council just needs to get drastic and change dramatically. I can see them keeping at least the Galaxy and Ascendant factions, but anybody have any funky ideas out there they imagined the Council could adopt?

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My Stories

Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.

<- likes this. A LOT.

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"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi

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Check out the Repeat Offenders network of SGs! You'll be glad you did.

There are lore issues with the Council and Column.

The biggest issue is Requiem, though it spills over into the War Wolves. we're talking specifically at the Nictus split. If the War Wolves are failed N-fragment implementations, the Fifth Column would get rid of them. If Requiem is "defeated" and telling the troops to "stay loyal, we'll be back," then running the Column again... or going back in time..

An issue that develops a good break here would be ideal. Essentially solidify Reichsman being THE head of the Column (he 'sort of' seems to be,) and make sure he's seen to defeat and cast out Requiem (and his "alien masters,") then purge his troops.

Requiem heads off to control the Council, deposing the Center, the Nictus become more visible in their manipulations. The 'bots get split between the two factions (cheap disposable soldiers, both factions would have been making them anyway, so, sure, keep them but change armament slightly.) The Galaxy soldiers grow more Nictus-like as you go up in levels. The Void Hunters get folded in to the Council officially. The Ascendants get new ranks, so some of the shielding tech gets spread out. The "full time" War Wolves are Council only, the ... I'm forgetting the name, but the transforming ones stay with the Column (either as Council spies or science experiments.) Countering these, the Vampyri stay with the Fifth Column.

Both sides keep a hate-on for Kheldians, the Council because they're Nictus-led, the Column because they're more of "those damn aliens."

One way or another, the plot-thread spaghetti needs untangling.

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Hm. I guess that depends on what is actually making the War Wolves in the first place... And the Super Soldier Serum... And the Vampyri, for that matter.

Supposedly, it all stems from the same source, as Nosferatu was using N Fragments to generate all of it.

Now, frankly, I think that needs to be changed. "They're all just Nictus..." is, frankly, lazy. It makes it seem like the Nictus are some sort of "super matter" that can make anyone be anything, for no reason at all.

At least when characters are Kheldians, the energy beings make only a select batch of changes occur, and all of them are energy-based. Plus, the Council has the Galaxy troops and Void Hunters, which I believe demonstrate a much more likely shift into what Nictus Fragment Bonding would do to a person. Heck, there's even a subplot in the Kheldian arcs where they farm out the N Fragment Bonding, even plunking N Fragments into Freakshow. Freakshow shooting Nictus beams from their eyes is the result, not cyborg werewolves.

So... I guess unraveling the plot spaghetti begins there. If we're going to extricate the Nictus from the Fifth Column, we should simply deal with the situation stating that Nictus energy is the root cause of all their abilities. Give Schadenfreude more face time to differentiate him from Nosferatu as a character (because, right now, he's just a copy-paste of the Council AV), have him proudly declare he's developed a new super soldier serum, one that has all the wonderful capabilities of Nosferatu's, without the insult of having come from another planet (plot bait: he could be lying! Opens up the idea for an arc in which the Fifth Column starts kidnapping Galaxy troops... For raw materials...).

If they're going to have a war between the two groups, some shaking up of the mythos is going to have to occur. The change is bound to be ugly. It's bound to be distressing. It's bound to disappoint and entertain at the same time (it can do nothing BUT disappoint; the whole Council/5th Column issue has been disappointing players from the beginning, but the damage can be mitigated if the final shift is written well enough).

And I don't know about getting rid of the Center. I like him, actually. I like his quiet "truly behind the scenes" approach to running the Council. You never really know for sure if he's getting personally involved (sometimes, I like to pretend that's really him inside one of those Ascendant Archon suits), or if he's just nudging you towards keeping Requiem and Arakhn in check. He seems to have his finger on the pulse of Vandal and Nosferatu (Nosferatu especially at this point; I would imagine he'd be very PO'd about Schadenfreude). Burkholder, however, is a greedy <redacted>, and it's hard to keep your finger on the pulse of such a moron for long. Heck, it's a surprise Nemesis hasn't snaked Burkholder.

Requiem just strikes me as a failed leader. He let his ego get the better of him and was caught with his pants down. After that, his planning has been rage-fueled and paranoid. In the end, he tries to shroud the world in darkness, causing a brief civil war within the Council in the process (and betraying two of his only friends, as well). He doesn't have the clout to lead the group anymore, in my eyes. If he took control, I can imagine Vandal and Nosferatu would immediately set to trying to wrest that control from him. Vandal might even just hop over to the Fifth Column.

The Center, however, coordinates all of their madness. He is the careful guiding hand. He just needs more facetime than a few lines in a hidden arc on Villainside (Here's a hint, newbies: Viridian).

Finally, if there's going to be continued animosity between the Column and the Council, can we PLEASE start seeing more variety in their fights? It doesn't make any sense to me that the Fifth Column handily defeats the Council four fights out of five, mostly just because they're a level higher.

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I would also like to take a moment here and reiterate a problem I have with the Barracuda Strike Force...

The dialogue in the cutscene featuring Tyrant and Mueller needs fixing. Heck, even Reichsman's appearance in that scene needs fixing.

To begin, I am sick and tired of the explanation "Well, maybe the Fifth Column is an elite group in Axis Amerika..." No, it's not. Their elite group is Amerika Korps, not the Fifth Column (which is a term for enemy spies, not an elite military force).

When Reichsman first arrives, he should be wearing the tatters of his old Amerika Korps uniform...

In fact, the animations of his arrival can stay pretty much the same. What annoys me most is his wearing a Fifth Column uniform out of the box and his declaration of "Serving the Fifth Column."

When he was put in the box in the first place, he had NO CLUE who the Fifth Column were. He'd never heard of them. His total time in Primal Earth involved him stepping through the portal, declaring the world was forfeit, then getting the tar kicked out of him by the Phalanx.

I doubt the Phalanx would have let somebody deliver him a finely tailored M. Bison outfit with the Fifth Column logo emblazoned on it. No, they hastily shoved him in the super box and stuck it in their basement. There is no reasonable amount of time in which Reichsman could have undergone the costume change.

Now, the dialogue... Mueller intends to ask a favor of Reichsman? Really!? He intends to demand a favor of a man who reportedly tortured a curious old man to death so he could learn the whereabouts of Primal Earth?

Right...

Frankly, I think it would make more sense that Mueller is a representative of the Fifth Column. He should be offering the troops and resources of the Column to this modern god so they can make a definitive, triumphant return. No more skulking in the shadows to satisfy Requiem's shame (because he couldn't do anything worthwhile with his own personal army and got ousted by the Center; I would imagine that after all this time and nothing happening, plus Requiem abandoning them further during the Council civil war, his old army would be suffering abandonment issues), the Fifth Column is going to take control of the world, with Reichsman leading them to smash aside any and all opposition!

I would imagine Mueller would offer the Fifth Column to Reichsman. When the interdimensional villain points out the PCs and asks who they are, Mueller simply says "Oh, they're just some dupes I hired to help me get here to free you, sir. They've outlived their usefulness now."

Reichsman: "I agree." *Fist of Tyranny!*

Some players keep telling me they don't like how Reichsman Curbstomp KOs the team. Well, I'm actually not bothered by it. The PCs have finished fighting. During the course of the conversation, their adrenaline has wound down. Heck, even when fighting Reichsman in the final fight, he can CLOBBER the team with one punch. He's powerful, it makes sense to me.

The rest of the arc is full of Applied Phlebotinum, which is so common in the CoH Universe, I'm not bothered with it anymore. Heck, it's common in all of Comic Book World, so let 'em eat cake.

So, the mission structure can stay the same. I can forgive the rest of the setting, even the "More Hitpoints than Hamidon" build of Reichsman (though, seriously Devs... Come ON! You can do better than that!). There can even be all sorts of explanations for the Fifth Column flags all over Axis Amerika (Amerika Korps Krieger: "Welcome! WELCOME! Join us, and your world could look like THIS!" Fifth Column Krieger: "Uh... The flags are nice, but, I don't know... You've had control of this place for how long? And it's STILL rubble?").

That's all I have for now. One should only dwell on this subject for so long. you're right, Bill, the plot is so thickly tangled, there's no easy way to fix this in a manner in which everybody will be 100% satisfied.

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My Stories

Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.

The Vampyri have absolutely nothing to do with N-fragments, though. Nosferatu was toying with the idea of using them at one point, but decided against it. (IIRC, because of a fight with the PCs.) The vampyri are purely mad science.

War Wolves are (or were retconned to be) failed Galaxy troops. Those *are* listed as using N-fragments. That may need to be re-retconned as a "The war wolves started showing up before the Nictus were revealed...." bit.

I'm not sure what exactly to do with the Center. I don't want to get a three-way war going, and I can't see him just turning a blind eye to the Nictus "Make Earth a new Nictus homeworld" plan. It's a bit of a mess.

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Oh... I see...

Vampyri

Yeesh... You can see the result of the N-Fragment bonding at the bottom. Apparently, even with the alterations, the Vampyri aren't immune to the shift to War Wolf...

But then, they aren't immune to it in normal mode, either. I could have sworn I've seen Vampyri Archons who've turned into War Wolves when defeated. Or is that just a "PROC" that's running throughout all of the "flesh" ranks of the Council (because I have yet to see the Council robot that has turned into a War Wolf)?

If it is... Does that denote that there's still N-Fragment involvement at all ends of the spectrum, or is it just an item that needs to get handwaved?

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My Stories

Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.

I would say let the Council have the WarWolves and the Vampyri and have the 5th go with true Vampires and Werewolves. I mean completely new models, with new abilities. The werewolves of the 5th would be a combination of magic and science (pick your balance), that start looking like normal soldiers, be have two stages of transformation (like in the movies), where the final stage puts them on par with Council Warwolves. The 5th Vampires would be on par with the Vampyri, but always come with a pair of standard soldiers. In a fight, once the Vampire is near defeat, he will bite one of the accompanying soldiers, creating another Vampire. I would also create Franken-cyborgs, which are throwaway troops built from the remains of damaged robots and injured super-soldiers. I still think the lore needs to be revamped to give the 5th some distance from the Nictus, but I just hate the idea of even more recycles villains.

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"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."

I'm probably alone in this, but I've always seen the variety of troops on the 5th to be the five columns of the 5th Column. Of course, I'm more than ready to accept that the way I'm looking at the group is stretching it, but we have the normal troops, the Super Soldiers, the Vampyres, the War Wolves and the Robots. The big deal with the Council is the Galaxy and the Archons, the only ones that aren't copy-paste from the 5th.

My thoughts on a split between the two would be to make the Council more specialized, with the Nictus/Ascendants (to officially include the Void) and to give the 5th a real 5th Column. Perhaps they also managed to recruit some of Vahzilok's surgeons, after all it goes along with the sciency horror theme of the rest of the group.

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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.

Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?

A: You crash into another one.

While we're at it, can we physically shrink some of those Council soldiers? Holy cow.

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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog

Supposedly, that's a side effect of the Super Serum they use... But if that's the case, then that means the six-foot tall soldiers were originally, what? Four feet tall? Three feet? How many "ably-bodied" adults stand that tall?

It doesn't make sense that I'm able to make a towering beast at eight feet, but they can grow up to eleven or twelve feet. The same could be said about the Rikti, but then they also have Hro'Dtohz and U'Kon Gr'ai, so maybe their height issue isn't really something to be too concerned about.

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My Stories

Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.

Heck, I'm still trying to figure out how the 5th Column lost to the Council in the first place.

Every time I see a 5th vs Council mob fight, it's the Council who loses.

I don't think I've seen a single fight where there's any Council troops still standing at the end of it, since they started having the street battles.

Which is making the various "Hunt x Council in Boomtown" missions a REAL PAIN to complete. Most of the time, all the Council are dead before I can get in more than a few swings....and then all the remaining 5th Column mobs decide to beat on me.

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6000+ levels gained and 8 level 50's
Hello, my name is Soulwind and I have Alt-Itis.

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Battlerock X - inv/str tank, Justice Server
http://battlerockx.blogspot.com - The Battlerock X Chronicles
http://guardiansofthedawn.wordpress.com - fan-based comic book series "The Guardian Powers"
http://twitter.com/BattlerockX
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"With Me - Against Me" Mission Arc 230667

I think the only time I've ever seen the Council win one of those fights was when the mob had a Vampyri Archon in it.

This is a point I've been harping on ever since the reintroduction of the Fifth Column.

The ONLY reason why those Fifth Column vs. Council battles are so one-sided is because the Fifth Column is fighting at a +1 level advantage. Always. That's how it's programmed.

Why is that important? At a level higher, they have better ToHit, Damage, Resistance, Hitpoints, Defense... All of their core abilities are boosted (rather significantly, too, if it's working like PC numbers; consider how easily your character can finish a mission in which it leveled halfway through).

There are no instances where the two fight at even odds or where the Council is fighting at a +1 level advantage. If it's supposed to be an epic struggle between the two groups, then let's start seeing some real fight in the Council as opposed to them having next to no chance of succeeding.

Of course, if the Developers are just going to quietly take the Council out of the game and have the Fifth Column Find/Replace all of their missions, then I guess it doesn't matter. In fact, it makes sense. The Fifth Column is wiping out the Council with precise guerrilla assaults. The Council got a curbstomp victory, so now the Fifth Column gets a curbstomp victory. It would be monstrously unsatisfying for the playerbase, but, whatever. That's the easy thing to do, and veteran players have been demanding for years that the Council simply be eliminated.

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My Stories

Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.

This has been suggested before. Sorting out the 5th/Council/Arachnos? lore mess would be very nice. At least for the people who care about such things. Pity there are no "All things writing" threads, or even anyone really in charge of all writing as far as I can tell.

I have made some suggestions before. Instead of reposting, here is a link.

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I do not suffer from altitis, I enjoy every character of it.

I think people are expecting far too much.

Have you really thought about how much time and effort would be needed to change all the existing content? Furthermore, do you honestly think they are going to actually put in that effort?

No, what I think we're going to get is some kind of explanation that Requiem isn't in charge of either the Council or the 5th Column. Instead, he's playing each side against the other in an attempt to take over both organizations.

This way, the Devs won't have to change existing content - they can just stick in a couple new arcs and call it good for another 3-5 episodes.

Is it ideal? No. Is it what we want? Heck no. Is it what we're most likely to get?

Yeah, sounds about right...

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-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-

Well, I prefer not to latch on to such cynicism.

I would rather not have two factions that are basically exactly the same. Arachnos shares history with both of them, but they were able to become their own entity. Aside from a couple units, the vast majority of the Fifth and the Council forces are duplicates of each other. I think at least one of them deserves a real shakeup to differentiate itself from the other.

Plus, there is a conflict staring the players and the developers right in the face. There is so much potential for story there that it's painful. Everybody has an idea of how it's going to turn out.

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My Stories

Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.

/Signed. I'd also love to see them get an HD re-render pass, but thats just me

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Council doesnt make sense right now with the 5th Column back. They so much cooler than Council.
/signed. They need a cool upgrade.

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Since the Fifth Column are the in game equivalent of the Third Reich I think it would be cool to explore the premise that Hitler was looking into the occult as a way of powering his war machine.

I would love to see the Fifth Column be redone as mainly using a gritty looking steampunk meets the occult kind of technology. Lots of wrought iron, blown glass (for sundry liquids or gases), pulleys, gears, cables and bellows that harness supernatural forces.

Change the war wolves from actual werewolves into soldiers wearing wolf themed battle armor complete with snapping jaws, give the vampyrii a single glove wired to a back pack that allows them to control the dark forces at will. The remaining soldiers would need similar tech overhauls for their weapons and armor while the robotic minions would be more along the lines of golems.


^

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"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull

"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat

Personally, I've always been of the opinion that we should let the Council have as much of everything they already have as we can. Let them keep the Vampyri, the War Wolves, the Mek Men and even the Ubermenschen.

Then, instead, rebuild the 5th Column as a brand new force, super-charged from Reichsman's Axis Amerika. Give them brand new super-soldiers, even more magic, possibly even wilder science. I mean, just look at Return to Castle Wolfenstein and grab-bag from there.

Right now, the Council have super soldiers, genetic freaks and robots, plus some aliens. The Column could instead have cyborgs of various degrees of humanity, magical creatures and spellcasters (nothing is quite as scary as a black mage in an SS uniform) and even magically enhanced super-humans in the image of Reichsman, himself. You can also have outright mutan monsters, like Resident Evil mutants, instead of the War Wolves, as well as your more classic flaming skeletons and zombie soldiers.

There's a lot of room to expand the Column... But I doubt this will ever happen. New content and artwork has been at a serious premium recently.

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"You called, Herr Samuel?"



I approve of that, very much.

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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.

Hm. I was originally of the opinion of leaving the Fifth Column alone because of the constant fan-worship (or is that "preferred hatred?") of the Fifth Column and the dislike that the Council basically apes them.

But it actually seems, with their absence for so long and their current use in-game, that it would be the easier to change the Fifth Column... They no longer really have the legacy that they used to and they DO have access to all sorts of nifty new resources. Add to that the fact that they're probably seriously PO'd about Requiem abandoning them (of course, that depends on what the Heck is going on in the ITF; is that before or after the Council takeover?), and they'd probably be all about a change in tactics. Maybe they would hold onto their massive AOE damage (seriously, OW!), but invest in some of the super tech that's floating around, like the Malta Group's Sapper Rifles and Nemesis's Force Field Generators.

Maybe they could have Schadenfreude and some roboticist (without Vandal and Burkholder, the group needs some technical expertise) develop some kind of "Mechanized Infantry (walking tanks, power armor)" to supplement their dwindling super soldier serum supplies.

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My Stories

Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.

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