Wow, seven slots just for KB protection on top of taking three powers to get acro is nuts!
To think one could trade all of that in for hover... one power available at level 6 that unslotted can nullify KB.
Just sayin... it's a choice made. KB is a weakness of most SS/SJ builds, and to counter this weakness you can get buffed by a kin or sacrafice slots using IOs to reach a desired level of KB protection.
A fair choice of three options imo. Your wish to sacrafice less to get KB protection is understandable, but I don't see just cause for such a change when you have other options.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
So you want to increase the effectiveness of a power to almost 250% of what it was in exchange for nothing?
Sorry but I am pretty sure one of the reasons only 2 points are enhanceable is because the devs want KB to still be an issue vs some attacks unless you dedicate the resourses to prevent it. (Or play most melee toons)
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I could've sworn they changed it some time ago so that Hover no longer provides knockback protection. Indeed, as I recall I became annoyed that my fliers were now getting pushed around at which point I discovered the Kinetic Crash set.
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Originally Posted by Dahjee
To think one could trade all of that in for hover... one power available at level 6 that unslotted can nullify KB.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Getting bumped once or twice while staying airborne is much different than what a SJ'er experiences when caught in mid jump with a KB effect.
For me to say hover can nulify KB might have been too strong a phrase. The effect may be there but the consequences are far less severe... to the point of needing little to no KB protection on a flier. Keep in mind that most powers that can drop flyers will also be granting those players with KB protection.
Basically, flying has plenty issues in PvP... but KB isn't one of them.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
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Unless, of course, you were planning on taking SJ, and/or taking CJ for (among other things) immobilize protection. I've never taken "three powers to get acro." |
Originally Posted by Dahjee
Wow, seven slots just for KB protection on top of taking three powers to get acro is nuts!
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I know it sounds nitpicky. The question is "Are you sacrificing other powers JUST to get acro, or would it naturally have become available with the other power selections you wanted anyway?" If you wouldn't - you wanted to (say) take Fly or SS instead - then yes, it's a sacrifice to work around (or get IOs for.) If you would, well, we did just get three power picks potentially freed up.
As far as the OP... well, ok, my first reaction is "like they're going to pay attention to PVP-anything," but after that, PVE-side it's mostly unneccessary. A single 4-point KB resist IO handles better than 90% of the KB you'll run across. PVP-side, I have no argument with it, though the devs may feel the slot sacrifice is "fair." (I don't know one way or the other, don't think we've ever had a dev statement on it.) You may need a more solid argument for it, especially - as you point out yourself - with KB IOs (at least one of which could go into a power you've likely taken on the way up to Acro - CJ.)
as an zoner that sometimes plays energy blast I just have to give this a big
no.
besides on both my blasters I play zone with it's easy enough to get the KB IOS required to reach 41 points with a little investment and the right slotting and no gimp build.
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Originally Posted by Dahjee
Wow, seven slots just for KB protection on top of taking three powers to get acro is nuts!
To think one could trade all of that in for hover... one power available at level 6 that unslotted can nullify KB. Just sayin... it's a choice made. KB is a weakness of most SS/SJ builds, and to counter this weakness you can get buffed by a kin or sacrafice slots using IOs to reach a desired level of KB protection. A fair choice of three options imo. Your wish to sacrafice less to get KB protection is understandable, but I don't see just cause for such a change when you have other options. |
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Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
So you want to increase the effectiveness of a power to almost 250% of what it was in exchange for nothing?
Sorry but I am pretty sure one of the reasons only 2 points are enhanceable is because the devs want KB to still be an issue vs some attacks unless you dedicate the resourses to prevent it. (Or play most melee toons) |
This change wouldn't stop knockback powers from being an issue, anymore then it already is. This would only free up 'needed' slots. Its like when everyone was taking the fitness pool for stamina. Stamina wasnt really NEEDED some could argue, but 90% of people took it because it made their whole playing experience that much better. This isn't much different. If you don't have the knockback protection in your build, your going to be flopping around. When you flop around in PvP, you die a lot. Thats counter productive to a positive playing experience.
As far as the route to go Hover and Fly, those power selection you lose half of your mobility. Generally speaking, CoH/V is very fast paced. Taking SJ/SS is what the majority of players, in this case, take for travel powers. Hover just isn't practical to take in this case. What are you gonna do? Put Hover on a foot pedal so you can get lucky and turn it on right before you get knocked back? Besides that not even working, it isn't practical.
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Originally Posted by Lucky666
as an zoner that sometimes plays energy blast I just have to give this a big
no. besides on both my blasters I play zone with it's easy enough to get the KB IOS required to reach 41 points with a little investment and the right slotting and no gimp build. |
As far as getting this much protection in a build, I think you should reread the OP.
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Because its a straight up nerf to power push and other high mag KB powers that's how and ya power push is up there with forcebolt and power thrust.. On Blasters power push only goes up to about 35 when increased with KB enhancers, defender 45ish, not sure about corruptors or doms but it's in between thos two numbers. |
Originally Posted by TehFiri
How is playing an energy blast relevant here? Are you implying that the knockback from energy blast is greater then power thrust or force bolt? Because if it is (this would be a great surprise too, since that would be a ninja buff), then people would build to protect for that mag knockback. But it isn't, it is already covered by getting 41ish. As far as getting this much protection in a build, I think you should reread the OP. |
Most people already build to protect from high KB but some don't and changing accro like this would make EVERYONE triviallize not only power push, force bolt etc high level KB powers.
So bad idea is bad. Besides accro already use to be way higher protection they changed it, pretty sure they aint gonna change it again.
I read the OP already. You obviously have holes in your builds that you can not plug for whatever reasons and thought you'd whine on the forums for a nerf for all high mag KB powers. I don't take kindly to such suggestions
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Ya this is where your full of it, 80% of pvp zone toons are mellee so dont take accro so your stamina metaphor fails. This is obioulsy a personnal agenda just admit it.
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Originally Posted by TehFiri
Yes, this is a straight up buff to Acro.
This change wouldn't stop knockback powers from being an issue, anymore then it already is. This would only free up 'needed' slots. Its like when everyone was taking the fitness pool for stamina. Stamina wasnt really NEEDED some could argue, but 90% of people took it because it made their whole playing experience that much better. This isn't much different. If you don't have the knockback protection in your build, your going to be flopping around. When you flop around in PvP, you die a lot. Thats counter productive to a positive playing experience. . |
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I agree. This is why the majority of players, in this case, also have to slot for KB protection.|
Originally Posted by TehFiri
Taking SJ/SS is what the majority of players, in this case, take for travel powers.
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Originally Posted by TehFiri
Hover just isn't practical to take in this case. What are you gonna do? Put Hover on a foot pedal so you can get lucky and turn it on right before you get knocked back? Besides that not even working, it isn't practical.
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Seriously though, no. Flying builds are different than standard ss/sj builds, and slot and power investment is different when building one. It is easy to look at this concept as lacking mobility when compared to SS/SJ, but only because slotting and tactics for these builds aren't as copy/paste or as commonly known. There are things a good PvP flyer needs as much as a SS/SJ'er needs KB protection for example, but we can agree to disagree on that point really. Your mileage with Hover/Fly in PvP apparently varies from mine...
My point wasn't about better or worse, but that there are other choices to consider before dedicating 7 or more slots and a power pool pick to KB protection. Ignoring these other options or labeling them "not practical" isn't just cause for changing a power that only suits your preference.
WAI I'd say. Sorry to disagree.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
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If it becomes easier for players to build knockback protection into their builds, surely you can figure out a way to work around that. Regardless, this is really about zone PvP, since just about everyone who PvPs in the arena will have enough KB protection to stop anything, and knockback is completely imbalanced in zone PvP with travel suppression and heal decay in their current implementation. It's bad enough that I can't get away and I can't heal, and now I'm knocked on my ***. No thanks.
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Originally Posted by Lucky666
Because its a straight up nerf to power push and other high mag KB powers that's how and ya power push is up there with forcebolt and power thrust.. On Blasters power push only goes up to about 35 when increased with KB enhancers, defender 45ish, not sure about corruptors or doms but it's in between thos two numbers.
Most people already build to protect from high KB but some don't and changing accro like this would make EVERYONE triviallize not only power push, force bolt etc high level KB powers. So bad idea is bad. Besides accro already use to be way higher protection they changed it, pretty sure they aint gonna change it again. I read the OP already. You obviously have holes in your builds that you can not plug for whatever reasons and thought you'd whine on the forums for a nerf for all high mag KB powers. I don't take kindly to such suggestions |
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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How am I suppose to make my power push do more KB when it's already at the ED cap? I already suggested KB for alpha incarnate powers what else am i gonna do? It's already easy on a squishy to get 41 points of KB why make it easier and trivialize even more powers and play styles. Isn't this excatly what pvp 2.0 did. Aren't you against that?|
Originally Posted by macskull
If it becomes easier for players to build knockback protection into their builds, surely you can figure out a way to work around that. Regardless, this is really about zone PvP, since just about everyone who PvPs in the arena will have enough KB protection to stop anything, and knockback is completely imbalanced in zone PvP with travel suppression and heal decay in their current implementation. It's bad enough that I can't get away and I can't heal, and now I'm knocked on my ***. No thanks.
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I'm gonna make this blunt. This would ruin any energy blast toons for zone play and it would be in the same boat as ice blast, less then useless.
This isn't going to change, it doesn't matter. Acro could resist mag100 and we could just call it good, couldn't we? The idea seems to be to force slotting and occasionally, let someone who has a KB make use of it.
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Like real travel powers that offer real mobility with fewer disadvantages, as well as offering useful prerequisite powers? Yeah, something like that.| There are things a good PvP flyer needs |
The only real advantages to fly are the ability to go to the zone ceiling, and the ability to essentially ignore KB if you're on the ground. Those two advantages can be gained by several temp powers that are almost as good as the real thing, so there's no point in building such powers into a build. At any rate, you're trading mobility, maneuverability, controllability, speed, Hasten, Combat Jumping, and much of your escapability for powers that can be easily replaced.
There are far more powers that can counter fly as a travel power than can counter SS/SJ. If you rely on fly as your primary movement, you need to have another travel power or you're screwed, because as soon as the zone sees you've got fly they'll be on you like white on rice with webnades, snowstorm, shark jaws, and all manner of -fly, which the SS/SJ users can just shrug off. -Jump is the biggest annoyance to an SS/SJ user since there's really no such thing as movement slow anymore outside of specific (relatively rare) builds and powers, and even then they still have full horizontal mobility. If you get brought down out of fly and you don't have any other travel powers you're screwed, simple as that.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Your ignorance of fly is ironic. Your reading comprehension is just sad. I clearly stated that my post was not to make a point about which travel is better or worse. I stated that my point was simply to show that KB has little to no effect on a flyer, (and you agree) and because of that, we all have the option to choose not to use several slots and a power pool pick to get KB protection.
You define mobility by how fast your ground and jump speed is... not by where you toon is capable of getting to. SS/SJ is more mobile but cannot reach 75% of a zone due to no vertical movement? You gonna tell me that a jetpack is superior or just as good as hover? You seriously suggest using several temp powers to equal what hover/fly can do? Even though that statement is pretty much BS... Mac you are still gold.
You are right on one point though. As one of the things a good PvP flyer needs the most is another travel pick to complement it. Naturally this is Teleport, and the combo counters SS/SJ in a zone anyday when played well. Hasten is overated these days. CJ is just a mule that hover replaces. You do NOT lose mobilty with hover/fly/TP. This is a myth. You lose travel speed. There is a difference. SS/SJ'ers MOVE faster. They do not get from point A to point B fatser. They cannot evade as effectively as a TP'er. They retreat to their base while a flyer just has to TP upwards once a few hundred feet lol. I can give a SS/SJ'er a 3 second headstart to get away and still be in front of them before they reach their base. The lovely trail of SS they leave behind helps btw. The prereq's need for TP, (TP Foe and/or TP friend) are more useful for mitigation and disruption than most consider. I could go on, but I have no desire to change a fixed opinion.
You don't realize Mac... that for the same reason KB affects a SS/SJ'er more so than a Flyer/TP'er... TS and HD do as well. It's a matter of playstyle, not a matter of mobility. You have your pref. and there are many advantages and disadvatages that come with it. You've never realized that many of the things you despise about the current pvp system are due to your tired ol' playstyle. I wish you luck in discovering these things on your own. I'm here to help if you have trouble.
PS. Mac you know better by now... just walk away friend. I'm close to the edge ya know.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
So this is a good idea
/Bump
Why not just keep it at 9, make it all enhanceable and increase it's Hold Resistance/Protection to Hold Protection Mag 9!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Warning - some math below
As is stands now you currently get 9 points of knockback protection from acrobatics. 7 of those points are unenhanceable. The remaining 2 are.
My proposed change would be to increase the KB protection of Acrobatics to 11 points and allow it all to be enhanceable. The reasoning for this is currently no one slots Acro for KB because you could spend that 1 slot in a different power and get MORE KB protection from an KB IO.
Also while most of you could care less about this sort of change, it would vastly change a PvP build by freeing up slots that you would otherwise spend to protect against high mag KB powers. (Force Bolt, Levitate, Power Thrust, Power Push, etc..)
Here is a rather normal PvP build. Notice the slots spent for KB IOs as well as final KB protection with Acro on.
Click this DataLink to open the build!
(data chunk at bottom if link isnt working for you)
Im just going to give you the math for the final 3 slot values instead of every slot.. dont want to math bore you to death...
Knockback SOs are a schedule D enhancement for 60% (3 slotting is a total of 168% after ED(180% without))
Current total value = 12.36
Value with a base of 11 enhanceable = 29.48
Knockback IOs are a schedule D enhancement for 74.6% (3 slotting is a total of 175.38% after ED(229.2% without))
Current total value = 12.51
Value with a base of 11 enhanceable = 30.25
This roughly equals out to each slot that you put a KB SO/IO in is worth 6 points of protection. This seems pretty logical to me since that is the point of the power.
Overall this wouldn't hurt anyone and for people who PvP, it would free up 2-4 slots in a build.
Any feedback/math fixes is always good.
TL/DR
Increase Acro's KB protection to 11 and make all of it enhanceable.