Common IOs only, I assume? This is actually quite neat. As a Frankenslotter I like the concept.
I would suggest there should be a Inf cost associated with doing it though.
Oh, yes. Common IOs only.
I don't see the need for an additional inf cost, as you're already losing 50% of the inf that went into making the two IOs, as well as half the salvage. Does it really need to cost additional inf?
Why I don't support this:
1. The benefit is minimal.
2. Set IO's already mostly* serve this purpose.
3. This wouldn't be an easy thing to implement.
*To expand on point number 2, the situation you described is unlikely. Needing both recharge and endurance reduction on one power, and not willing to have more than one slot in it? I can't really think of a situation where that is reasonable.
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Quote:
Kheldians.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
*To expand on point number 2, the situation you described is unlikely. Needing both recharge and endurance reduction on one power, and not willing to have more than one slot in it? I can't really think of a situation where that is reasonable.
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EDIT: I didn't see that these would work like set IOs in the sense that multi-aspect set IOs have more total enhancement than a common of the same level.
I'm all for more options, but this seems like the most difficult way to go about getting them.
I do like it as an extra influence sink.
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I cant say how easy or not this would be to implement but I love it.
1 place I would certainly use this (off the top of my head) is Super Speed. I like to be at run speed cap and if I only need a little bit more run speed, say 1/3 of an IO worth, then I can throw some end redux in as added bonus.
Good idea
As an end-game tool, this has nearly no use.
For those that can afford (and want to) frankenslot, its not brilliantly useful.
But early game slot hungry characters this is a blessing. And I like, how much I would end up using it, since I barely use Common IOs, is anyones guess.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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Kheldians what, you gonna give an example or be vague and mysterious? |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Kheldians.
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Even if there's a power or two where this would be nice, it just isn't important enough for justifying this feature.
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Quote:
Kheldians just need bloody slots, anywhere they can get them. Specifically, Stygian Circle could use endurance reduction and recharge in a single slot.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Kheldians what, you gonna give an example or be vague and mysterious?
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If these worked like set IO enhancement values (more total enhancement from more aspects), it would be a fantastic opportunity for anyone slot hungry to really get some great performance out of characters. With two acc/dmg/end/rech and another two dmg/end/rech you're pretty much at the ED cap for three attributes, plus enough accuracy to hit even cons, all in four slots. Not only that, multi aspect IOs are amazingly beneficial when exemplaring.
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Quote:
Aha, just one power~|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Kheldians just need bloody slots, anywhere they can get them. Specifically, Stygian Circle could use endurance reduction and recharge in a single slot.
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Quote:
| If these worked like set IO enhancement values (more total enhancement from more aspects), it would be a fantastic opportunity for anyone slot hungry to really get some great performance out of characters. With two acc/dmg/end/rech and another two dmg/end/rech you're pretty much at the ED cap for three attributes, plus enough accuracy to hit even cons, all in four slots. Not only that, multi aspect IOs are amazingly beneficial when exemplaring. |
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Quote:
Slot up a triform and try saying "just one power" again. Besides, I've seen other situations where I'd love to slot, say, EndMod/Health as a single IO - doesn't exist, though. Anywhere there's a slot crunch, this sort of thing would come in handy for. |
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Aha, just one power~
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*shrug* More flexibility in slotting = good.
Eagerly signed, if only so I can make the ultimate useless enhancement, the knockback/sleep/range/taunt/intangibility/confuse enhancement.
Seriously, though, I'd like the feature, but I see implementing it being very time consuming. Do you allow everything to be combined in any kind of combo? If so, how many combos is that? With 26 different types, isn't that over 2 billion? Can you make it so that 1/2 of the new IO is A, 1/4 is B and the last 1/4 is C?
Then there's things like exploits. I'm thinking of Active Defense in Shields. It shouldn't slot Defense, but if you use a Hami-O you can increase it's DDR. Would a Recharge/Def Combo do the same? Would implementing a rule that every aspect of the combo IO must be permissible in the power it's placed work?
Lots of questions, but I'd love to see a way to make it work.
edit: Oh, and think of the market mayhem in listing those items. Probably best to make them non-listable.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
I was thinking of something along the lines of the slot system, only inside the IO itself. It has six spaces, and starts out with one full of that IO type. The mechanic would be to total up all bonuses, then divide by the number of IOs for each bonus. The IO would end up having a look similar to the graphic on the invention badges, with each slice being whatever color.
The IO alchemy should only be accessible by dragging an IO onto an already-slotted IO, and the game should make the usual check for allowable IO types (graying out the powers that can't take that type). They shouldn't be removable, and removing during a respec should break them if they end up in your tray at the end of the respec.
My goal isn't to break the game, or allow powers to be slotted in ways that are normally unavailable. I just want more customization options for my powers.
edit-
I would support only having three spaces instead of six, as the game has many examples of dual- and triple-effect set enhancements. I had thought six at first simply because I was comparing it to the slot system, but three would be totally sufficient.
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Like mentioned, we'd probably stick with combining IOs with ones already slotted in a power. So that'd cut down on how many combos you could get since there aren't any powers that sleep foes, make them intangible, taunt them and knock them back while they're confused.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
Eagerly signed, if only so I can make the ultimate useless enhancement, the knockback/sleep/range/taunt/intangibility/confuse enhancement.
Seriously, though, I'd like the feature, but I see implementing it being very time consuming. Do you allow everything to be combined in any kind of combo? If so, how many combos is that? With 26 different types, isn't that over 2 billion? Can you make it so that 1/2 of the new IO is A, 1/4 is B and the last 1/4 is C? Then there's things like exploits. I'm thinking of Active Defense in Shields. It shouldn't slot Defense, but if you use a Hami-O you can increase it's DDR. Would a Recharge/Def Combo do the same? Would implementing a rule that every aspect of the combo IO must be permissible in the power it's placed work? Lots of questions, but I'd love to see a way to make it work. edit: Oh, and think of the market mayhem in listing those items. Probably best to make them non-listable. |
Also, it'd limit the exploitations too. Since you can't natively slot Active defense with +def, you couldn't combine rech and def into that slot.
One UI suggestion I'd make though would be 'mini-slots'. Rather than the straight enhancement combo system we have now, where you just get a 'new' enhancement, with mini-slots, it basically just add the extra IOs you combine with the main as miniature versions around it. This would mean you're not actually creating new IOs, just sort of linking them therefore you have no new listings at all and when you respec, you can switch around which ones you're combining.
I might even suggest being able to do with with regular enhancements for more options to those that don't want to use IOs. Maybe with different stipulations/advantages.
What if you could take SO and combine it with other enhancements with the stipulation that you could only do so with enhancements below their origin status? I.e., for SOs, you can only use DOs to combo with it; for DOs you could only combo it with TOs. But in exchange, the main slot only takes a straight 50% cut not a cut dependent on how many enhancements you place under it?
I like this idea.
To keep it simple (well not TOO difficult) prob limit the total number of ENH types to 3 and you cant dbl up.
Acc/Dam - yes
Acc/Dam/End - yes
Acc/Acc/End - no
Acc/Dam/End/Rec - no.
Like others have said if the power itself doesnt allow you to slot a xO (TO/DO/SO/IO) then you cant combine it in this manner either (Active Defence, Mind Link, etc).
If these limitations are met then it shouldnt be too difficult to list them for buying/selling on the BM/WW.
As for a "Combining Fee" - no. We dont get charged to combine xO's (30 > 30+ > 30++).
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The problem here is you're only seeing it from a "one slot" perspective. Personally I'd get more use out of using this system in a 5th slot. |
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Why I don't support this:
1. The benefit is minimal. 2. Set IO's already mostly* serve this purpose. 3. This wouldn't be an easy thing to implement. *To expand on point number 2, the situation you described is unlikely. Needing both recharge and endurance reduction on one power, and not willing to have more than one slot in it? I can't really think of a situation where that is reasonable. |
Some examples :
I always slot cones with Acc/Dam and Dam/Recharge from Air Burst and Detonation. I also tend to have a 5th slot for them which always has me stuck between "should I stick a Recharge or a Range in there". The ability to split the difference and slot a Common Recharge/Range would be great, leaving me free to either use a 6th slot for a PROC (Forced Feedback for example or a Damage PROC) or just leave it 5 slotted and spend a slot elsewhere.
The same could be applied to other powers I slot the same sort of way where an extra End/Recharge in the 5th slot would be most welcome (costly, slow recharging attacks like Total Focus on my Elec/NRG Dom. Slots are tight on a levelling Domi too)
Slotting Adrenal Boost on my Plant/Emp. Normally I go 2 End Mod/Recharge, 2 Heal/Recharge. Being able to top it up with a 5th slot of End Mod/Heal would be very useful to me.
AOE Mezzes. Normally I go 4 Acc/[Mez]/Recharge with these. Again Mr 5th Slot would like a [Mez]/Recharge in there. Oddly [Mez]/Recharge is missing or very limited / expensive for most mez sets (the one in Hold sets is very expensive which goes against the concept of Frankenslotting, there's none at all for Stuns).
Slow Sets are frankly a total mess. A lot of Slow powers don't actually need many slots, I'd like to be able to slot an Acc/Recharge and an Acc/Range into Shiver for example, or an Acc and a Recharge/Range and call it a day (again on a levelling Ice Domi where slots are tight). Or a Slow/End into Snow Storm on my Illusion/Storm controller.
This goes back to my first point. If you were to use other sets together with common IO's you'll get almost the same numbers, thus the benefit is minimal.
I'm not saying there aren't any cases where this is useful, i'm saying that these cases are either too rare or not very impactful(if at all).
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Quote:
The problem with this is not that it would unbalance the game. The problem is that it could potentially lead to builds becoming so perfectly min/maxed that eventually people would only use the "guru-designed" builds as cookie-cutter roadmaps for their characters. Build diversity would be lost.|
Originally Posted by Cayenne
My goal isn't to break the game, or allow powers to be slotted in ways that are normally unavailable. I just want more customization options for my powers.
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Right now we only have a certain set of imperfect IO choices when it comes to what we can slot in a power. Obviously people attempt to do the best they can to maximize the benefits but many of the choices don't quite "fit" perfectly. For example a certain collection of IOs might give you the ACC you need in a power, but you might have to compromise a bit of END or DAM in order to get that ACC. Those "rough edges" or compromises we have to make lead to build diversity and multiple ways to approach how we might choose to slot a power. That's a good thing.
But if we had a system like this "IO alchemy" idea then the compromises we currently have to account for would disappear. The "rough edges" I mentioned would be smoothed over. While that seems like a good idea what it would actually lead to is the number-cruncher math people would figure out the exact combinations of IO alchemy that would yield the "optimal" slotting for a given power to maximize its potential. These precise formulations would spread around the forums and you'd end up with a new kind of FotM build where everyone is not only using the same AT/Powersets but everyone is built with the identical stats and slotting as well.
Part of what makes this game fun is that there are multiple ways to slot powers that lead to different pros and cons. This makes it so that Tank A can be slightly different than Tank B but they both can be equivalently effective. With IO alchemy too many people might be motivated to use the one single optimal build that would end up making Tank A and Tank B 100% identical far too often.
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The ability to do this might be "great" but it would also lead to not having to deal with compromises in slotting I believe the Devs intended. The Devs wanted a system that forced us to consider the pros and cons between having to deal with whether you "should stick a Recharge or a Range in there". Splitting the difference, as you put it, would eliminate the need to make tough build choices.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
I always slot cones with Acc/Dam and Dam/Recharge from Air Burst and Detonation. I also tend to have a 5th slot for them which always has me stuck between "should I stick a Recharge or a Range in there". The ability to split the difference and slot a Common Recharge/Range would be great, leaving me free to either use a 6th slot for a PROC (Forced Feedback for example or a Damage PROC) or just leave it 5 slotted and spend a slot elsewhere.
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A valid point. Although recently added sets (Basilisks Gaze for one) would indicate they may have started to reconsider their original intentions.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
The ability to do this might be "great" but it would also lead to not having to deal with compromises in slotting I believe the Devs intended. The Devs wanted a system that forced us to consider the pros and cons between having to deal with whether you "should stick a Recharge or a Range in there". Splitting the difference, as you put it, would eliminate the need to make tough build choices.
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In a system where they skewed things so strongly towards rewarding Defense Builds and Recharge above almost anything else it'd be nice to add this as another direction to take, as is Inventions have become almost a 2 goal system, which can't be what they intended either.
Just fixing a lot of the crappy sets and rounding them out some more would go a long way to "fixing" my issues with it too. ie better Slow Sets which actually make sense, taking what they did with Basilisks Gaze and doing the same for other Mez sets, increasing the rather pitiful number of Targetted AOE sets and PBAOE damage sets.
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| The problem with this is not that it would unbalance the game. The problem is that it could potentially lead to builds becoming so perfectly min/maxed that eventually people would only use the "guru-designed" builds as cookie-cutter roadmaps for their characters. Build diversity would be lost. |
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Actually, some combos that aren't easy to come by in certain categories. Take Melee sets: none offer a End/Rech IO. For them, this feature could have a very helpful (albeit non-game-breaking) option. Melee attacks aren't that rare in my opinion.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
This goes back to my first point. If you were to use other sets together with common IO's you'll get almost the same numbers, thus the benefit is minimal.
I'm not saying there aren't any cases where this is useful, i'm saying that these cases are either too rare or not very impactful(if at all). |
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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I'm not against the idea of the Devs working on cleaning up some of the IOs which are currently available to better balance some of the more glaring holes and "vendor trash" that's out there. I'm just against providing a player customizable system like "IO alchemy" which would lead to hyper min/maxing. If as you say IOs killed build diversity already then "IO alchemy" would just be a further nail in its coffin. From that point of view why allow things to slip further down the slope in an unregulated manner?
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
A valid point. Although recently added sets (Basilisks Gaze for one) would indicate they may have started to reconsider their original intentions.
In a system where they skewed things so strongly towards rewarding Defense Builds and Recharge above almost anything else it'd be nice to add this as another direction to take, as is Inventions have become almost a 2 goal system, which can't be what they intended either. Just fixing a lot of the crappy sets and rounding them out some more would go a long way to "fixing" my issues with it too. ie better Slow Sets which actually make sense, taking what they did with Basilisks Gaze and doing the same for other Mez sets, increasing the rather pitiful number of Targetted AOE sets and PBAOE damage sets. Given both the sorts of builds people post here (and I'm aware the Forums are only a small % of the playerbase), as well as the massive price differences between "good" sets (ie anything that gives Defense or Recharge) and everything else this statement is kinda funny. Build Diversity is pretty much already down the toilet and has been since Inventions came out, Defense and Recharge set bonuses are king and everything else is vendor trash. Some way of getting more ooompf from using those lesser used sets (either by melding Common IOs or just bringing out new sets with useful enhancement values but not OTT Set bonuses) would be appreciated. |
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But it's not min/maxing really at all. I mean the other person here in the thread against it is basically saying its useless, you're saying it's too powerful. I'm saying it'd actually be somewhere in the middle, useful but not overly so,|
Originally Posted by Lothic
I'm not against the idea of the Devs working on cleaning up some of the IOs which are currently available to better balance some of the more glaring holes and "vendor trash" that's out there. I'm just against providing a player customizable system like "IO alchemy" which would lead to hyper min/maxing. If as you say IOs killed build diversity already then "IO alchemy" would just be a further nail in its coffin. From that point of view why allow things to slip further down the slope in an unregulated manner?
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An Alchemy Acc/Dam will always be inferior to a Set Acc/Dam of the same level for two reasons, no chance for a set bonus and it won't have the extra 25% effectiveness Set IOs have.
So there's a compromise right there. What it is good for is "odd slotting". It's like being able to meld two DOs together into a special half-and-half SO, nothing more.
I honestly don't see anything overpowered about them at all in any way, it'd just be a nice feature which some of the player base may use. I suspect most wouldn't because they'd still be stuck on the two-goal invention system and doing things like 6 slotting powers they've no intention of using for a Recharge bonus and/or Defense bonus.
Not to mention that anyone at 50 is probably going to ignore it in favour of things like Hami-Os (which are way, way more effective than these for any real min/maxers out there).
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I understand the concern, but I think this taking it to extremes. If what you're saying were true, that would be going on now with whats available. While I'm sure there are a lot of people copying builds, I don't think it's rampant, and I don't think it would be done anymore than it's done now. The problem with FotM mentality is that if it becomes popular enough, the expense to achieve the build goes up as the demand for those sets rises. Which leads people to then find comparable solutions for less - thus returning the diversity of builds. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
But if we had a system like this "IO alchemy" idea then the compromises we currently have to account for would disappear. The "rough edges" I mentioned would be smoothed over. While that seems like a good idea what it would actually lead to is the number-cruncher math people would figure out the exact combinations of IO alchemy that would yield the "optimal" slotting for a given power to maximize its potential. These precise formulations would spread around the forums and you'd end up with a new kind of FotM build where everyone is not only using the same AT/Powersets but everyone is built with the identical stats and slotting as well.
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Your argument also presumes everyone chasing the FotM build has the inf to do so. It also presumes that there would be only one "perfect" build for said AT/Powersets, and neglects that fact that many min/maxers have their own preferred min/max numbers for their playstyle.
For example, I have an Elec/Stone tank. Going to the forums, many people will suggest soft-capping S/L. I've only built mine to 30% and greatly increased the +HP. Which build would be better? It all depends on what you did with your tank. In all honesty, both are "perfect" for the person using them. Either way, they're still min/maxed in one way or the other.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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Nothing is stopping you from slotting those IO sets with Dam/End/Rech, Acc/End/Rech, or slotting a Dam/Rech and a Dam/End. Assuming you didn't 1-slot your melee attack, that is.
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Originally Posted by Rylas
Actually, some combos that aren't easy to come by in certain categories. Take Melee sets: none offer a End/Rech IO. For them, this feature could have a very helpful (albeit non-game-breaking) option. Melee attacks aren't that rare in my opinion.
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I suggested this in another thread, but I think it's a good enough idea to deserve its own post.
Let players combine even-level IOs, dividing the effect equally from the combined IOs. Combining two IOs would give each effect at 50%, three would be 33%, four would be 25%, and so on, up to 6 maximum. This would not increase the powers of IOs at all, but it would allow for much more customization.
Example of my intent: a level 25 character would like to have a power with increased recharge time AND reduced endurance consumption, but it has only one slot. He chooses a level 25 recharge and a level 25 endurance IO, and combines them into a single IO that gives half the normal amount of each IO. This isn't as good as either one separately, but he slots it happily. Later he finds that he isn't really having end problems as he thought he might, but the power isn't recharging quite fast enough, so he combines the rech/end IO with another recharge IO. The resulting IO has 1/3 of the normal end reduction, and 2/3 of the normal recharge reduction.
I can't see how this would hurt the balance of the game, as no IO could ever be made more powerful in this manner.