Group Fly
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-02-17 19:21 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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The fact remains that by the time it becomes available it's a nearly useless power in the current game environment. Less than useless since it penalizes any teammate near you whether they want it or not. Add that there are very few environments and enemy factions where it's actually helpful and it becomes even less desirable. Also add in that anyone can get their own flight powers with fewer penalties for a few thousand inf. Now add in all the teammate powers that become unusable when you turn on your Group Fly. Yeahhh...|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Grp fly may seem like a new good power to some people despite all the alts they have but to some people with certain alts (clearly not every) its a good additionally level of flexibility that takes up one slot. Out of some 70 alts I would say 5 of mine might have it or are getting it.
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Before the advent of the invention system there was only one situation where i found Group Fly consistently useful: Hamidon raids where Phantom Army droppers did not have any flight powers. Currently it's only useful as a novelty power to amuse other players with when not in combat.
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I just want a cool animation for all MMs instead of just bots.
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Thanks for your response. As far as the range, I would not call it enormous, or maybe it just didn't feel like it because your teammates flight speed is considerably lower than yours, and they would be outpaced, outranged and hit the ground fairly easily. Maybe just matching the flight speed or making the difference not so vast would be fine.|
Originally Posted by Katten
The radius is already enormous, and a prompter like you and many people suggest is absurd. If you maintain mobility it'd be prompting constantly, it'd be like a person on your team trying to recall you every 8 seconds.
Also, it takes some of the very few uses of the power away. For example, you suggested the cave hole. Doesn't work to well when people still fall to the ground, get all the aggro, then accept and fly back up. People who won't listen and turn it off when they should, should probably be kicked from the team. HOWEVER, people will not have that attitude everytime it's used, if it doesn't cause them to miss half their attacks. It should be "Oh cool, I can fly yet I did not select that power, how novel and mildly useful. Thank you my eccentric temporary friend" There should NOT be a COST associated with this power, it's like saying vengeance needed an end crash, or superspeeds whirling whatever the hell could also throw teammates or confuse you or something. This is a power pick, not a temp power. It doesn't NEED a downside for your team, maybe for you, but not them, that's how buffs work. |
I still don't think it would be absurd to add a prompter. Let's say it was something like "Player 1 has granted you flight for 3 minutes. Do you accept?" Not something that will flash in and out as you come in and out of range.
Well hell, I just had another thought. Instead of Group Flight, why not make it something like Grant flight? Each member is given a prompt and the flight will last 3-4 minutes. Don't get all angry on me... just a thought.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
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I'll start by saying this so you understand we're I'm coming from. I am simply trying to stay focused. There are plenty of ways this power could be reworked, and there are plenty of opinions on how and why that should be done. However, each new opinion makes devs edgy, it shows lack of solidarity on what the community wants, so often no change is made for fear of stepping on somebodies toes.|
Originally Posted by magikwand
Thanks for your response. As far as the range, I would not call it enormous, or maybe it just didn't feel like it because your teammates flight speed is considerably lower than yours, and they would be outpaced, outranged and hit the ground fairly easily. Maybe just matching the flight speed or making the difference not so vast would be fine.
I still don't think it would be absurd to add a prompter. Let's say it was something like "Player 1 has granted you flight for 3 minutes. Do you accept?" Not something that will flash in and out as you come in and out of range. Well hell, I just had another thought. Instead of Group Flight, why not make it something like Grant flight? Each member is given a prompt and the flight will last 3-4 minutes. Don't get all angry on me... just a thought. |
The only thing that everybody I believe can agree on though is that the 25% -tohit group debuff is ridiculous and needs to be eliminated. So I see this as the thing people need to rally on.
Now
The prompter, perhaps if it had one of the "don't ask me again" things tagged in the options menu for response, would probably be perfectly reasonable.
I'm worried about mentioning the radius change because it seems like a big change to the power due to the fact now you can imagine it like a large spherical cushion of air... any larger though and it may as well be "grant group fly" which actually isn't too far off what you'd like.
As for grant fly, thats simply the cottage rule "powers must maintain their original intent" (something like that) in affect. Not a bad idea, but now that it's in the game there's also going to be plenty of people who took it, who'd be angry if the power was swept out from beneath their feet. That kind of decision usually needs to be made pre-release to avoid backlash.
"Fascinating. I'm not bored at all, I swear." -Kikuchiyo
Quite a few people I've seen with group fly are MMs using it with pets. Not sure how prompts react with them. I doubt well.
I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
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i expect it would react like the teleport prompt does for pets: not at all. What a peculiar line of speculation with an even odder conclusion.|
Originally Posted by tanstaafl
Quite a few people I've seen with group fly are MMs using it with pets. Not sure how prompts react with them. I doubt well.
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Two things i would like to see done with Group Fly:
1) Tohit debuff removed. Group Fly already disadvantages players in other ways anyway, it hardly needs the additional penalty. This is by far the most important of the two in my opinion.
2) Add a setting allowing players to not be affected by Group Fly. A prompt option that pops up the first time a teammate activates it would be nice, but not really required if it would be difficult to implement. Merely being able to opt out through a setting would be enough.
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Isn't a big part of the reason for the tohit debuff because Group Fly ignores travel suppression [kind of by necessity]?
Of course, it's a good point that the debuff pretty much destroys group fly's usefulness in general, but just something to consider. However, it also appears that Group Fly didn't get the base speed increase that fly and hover received. [Hover coming in at 21.5, Group Fly at 34.7 unslotted], of course, Group Fly still receives significantly more benefit from enhancements. Anycase, perhaps a change to make Group Fly more like a Group Hover instead?
It would reduce the usefulness of it to Masterminds who are using it for the rocket boot pets animation while traveling, but I think it would be a bit more useful for teams.
Let's Dance!
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i thought that flight speed enhancements in Group Fly only enhanced the owner's flight speed. A rather bad thing since the owner starts out flying faster than the rest of the team.|
Originally Posted by reiella
Isn't a big part of the reason for the tohit debuff because Group Fly ignores travel suppression [kind of by necessity]?
Of course, it's a good point that the debuff pretty much destroys group fly's usefulness in general, but just something to consider. However, it also appears that Group Fly didn't get the base speed increase that fly and hover received. [Hover coming in at 21.5, Group Fly at 34.7 unslotted], of course, Group Fly still receives significantly more benefit from enhancements. Anycase, perhaps a change to make Group Fly more like a Group Hover instead? It would reduce the usefulness of it to Masterminds who are using it for the rocket boot pets animation while traveling, but I think it would be a bit more useful for teams. |
While Group Fly doesn't have travel suppression its limited radius, inability to be turned off by teammates except by moving away from the owner, generally slow speed, and fairly high endurance cost make the lack suppression hardly enough to justify the level of the debuff. This is in my opinion of course. It's quite possible the Devs feel differently considering the debuff is still in place and -25%.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Good points. I think we can all agree, as it is evidenced in every post here, that the to hit debuff should be scrapped entirely. Other points are arguable, but the to hit debuff needs to go. I took the power once on an empath, and I realized quickly how awful it is in it's current incarnation.
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Originally Posted by Katten
I'll start by saying this so you understand we're I'm coming from. I am simply trying to stay focused. There are plenty of ways this power could be reworked, and there are plenty of opinions on how and why that should be done. However, each new opinion makes devs edgy, it shows lack of solidarity on what the community wants, so often no change is made for fear of stepping on somebodies toes.
The only thing that everybody I believe can agree on though is that the 25% -tohit group debuff is ridiculous and needs to be eliminated. So I see this as the thing people need to rally on. Now The prompter, perhaps if it had one of the "don't ask me again" things tagged in the options menu for response, would probably be perfectly reasonable. I'm worried about mentioning the radius change because it seems like a big change to the power due to the fact now you can imagine it like a large spherical cushion of air... any larger though and it may as well be "grant group fly" which actually isn't too far off what you'd like. As for grant fly, thats simply the cottage rule "powers must maintain their original intent" (something like that) in affect. Not a bad idea, but now that it's in the game there's also going to be plenty of people who took it, who'd be angry if the power was swept out from beneath their feet. That kind of decision usually needs to be made pre-release to avoid backlash. |
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
How about turning Group Fly into something more like Group Hover? A marginal defense boost, no acc penalty, and a prohibitive end/sec cost?
That's how I've seen it used most of the time anyway; I wouldn't call it the go-to for mass transit.
I have to admit, as it stands group fly is a joke.
I respecced into it for my bots/FF mastermind thinking how great it would be on things like MS raids. Instead of the bots hopping along behind me and being killed or dragging Rikti to the pylons, they could just fly above the mobs and augment my awesome Mastermind fire power attacking the pylons. How cool would that be?
In practice they fly so slow, one or more would constantly drop to the ground because of the short range of the power. And, as an added bonus, I quickly drew the ire of my teammates. I never used it again.
I really think the devs need to look at making some of the changes discussed to make Group Fly a viable power choice.
I would just love if they would come out and say it would cost X amount of real life dollars in OT to pay the Devs to get this fixed. I would contribute real life money to get this rolling. The power has so much potential that anything different then they currently have would probably be an improvement. That is of course unless they decided to up the accuracy debuff to 50%. 
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
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As a side note, the cunning trick to keep your pets from falling is to bind something like ctrl+lbutton to "petcomall goto" and put yourself on /follow behind one of the pets. Click your way to wherever you need to go. That way they never fall out of the radius due to their stop/start movement.
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Originally Posted by Valence_P
In practice they fly so slow, one or more would constantly drop to the ground because of the short range of the power. And, as an added bonus, I quickly drew the ire of my teammates. I never used it again.
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The problem with flight is two fold- the debuff, and, ironically, the flight. In fact, the times I've turned it on the team requested I kill it not because they couldn't hit things but because they didn't want to fly. I'm not sure they even knew about the debuff. Many players are simply not comfortable with flight, especially in any sort of combat situation.
That said, combined with the "go to" command it's a true boon to masterminds, as they can keep from dragging trouble making minions, and get pets to places they usually couldn't jump to. Ironically, it penalizes these the worst as minions start with an accuracy handicap.
Remove the accuracy debuff, I will use this all the time with my masterminds solo.
Add it with the ability for team members to refute it, I can use it all the time.
I heartily approve of the no-debuff click with a prompt option. No falling pets/team members, no debuff, waaay fewer complaints.
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It needs WAY more fixing that just that. There have been plenty of threads about it in the past.|
Originally Posted by Hot_Head_Mike
Since it already really isn't to good I say why not fix that issue.
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Group Fly and Group Teleport both need work more than Teleport Self does and Teleport Self could still use some fixing as far as I'm concerned.
Pets still can't keep up in Group Fly. I think it is partially due to the pet pathing, but still ... This power should be very pet friendly. Even putting one fly enhancement in it makes it go far too fast for pets to keep up with it. It seems only to enhance the fly speed of the caster.
People need to be able to decline group fly. Make it a toggle in Options (I want this for Team Teleport as well. That power just sucks. But then the first time I saw it I was teleported to the feet of a Winter Lord on my Empathy/Electric Defender. Not a good first impression.)
Oh god, he's back.
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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Ok random thought here:
What would people think of changing Group Fly to function as a click buff (either an AoE buff like Inertial Reduction or a single target buff like Speed Boost)? It would obviously need an accept/decline prompt (or at least the option for a prompt) since without it it would be one of the best griefing powers in the game but it would solve a lot of the issues related to pets keeping up and make it more useful for fights where people need to fly but want to maneuver independently (i.e. Hamidon and Silver Mantis SF).
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I just wanted to comment on this. I really do not see this as a major concern. People can already do this by taking fly/hover themselves or simply buying a Raptor Pack (most people I've met seem to keep one on their characters). The devs have already balanced things multiple times to prevent hover-blasting from being to powerful, I really don't see how removing the to hit debuff on Group Fly would change the equation.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
If the entire team could fly through every mission and take pot shots and grounded npcs then the risk vs reward changes. Sure you can probably -def excessively and increase to hit but I think it awkward. I think there are some powers that you have to be grounded to use tie in perhaps with what the Devs don't or didn't want you to be able to do too.
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If the Devs were to datamine and find out everybody had fly then the power would either need a buff to be attractive somehow or changed completely seeing as no one takes it. Too few people hover blasting could easily mean that a change to group fly could never happen. -Tohit maybe the penalty of a team flying but being off grounded debuffs is a bonus.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I just wanted to comment on this. I really do not see this as a major concern. People can already do this by taking fly/hover themselves or simply buying a Raptor Pack (most people I've met seem to keep one on their characters). The devs have already balanced things multiple times to prevent hover-blasting from being to powerful, I really don't see how removing the to hit debuff on Group Fly would change the equation.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Uh, these read as sentences, but i can't quite parse what the overall point being made is. Although they read like there should be one.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
If the Devs were to datamine and find out everybody had fly then the power would either need a buff to be attractive somehow or changed completely seeing as no one takes it. Too few people hover blasting could easily mean that a change to group fly could never happen.
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| -Tohit maybe the penalty of a team flying but being off grounded debuffs is a bonus. |
Translation?
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
2. Increase the granter-grantee radius so I don't have to be in your back pocket
3. Add a prompt like teleport to allow rejection of the power
Also, it takes some of the very few uses of the power away. For example, you suggested the cave hole. Doesn't work to well when people still fall to the ground, get all the aggro, then accept and fly back up.
People who won't listen and turn it off when they should, should probably be kicked from the team. HOWEVER, people will not have that attitude everytime it's used, if it doesn't cause them to miss half their attacks. It should be "Oh cool, I can fly yet I did not select that power, how novel and mildly useful. Thank you my eccentric temporary friend"
There should NOT be a COST associated with this power, it's like saying vengeance needed an end crash, or superspeeds whirling whatever the hell could also throw teammates or confuse you or something.
This is a power pick, not a temp power. It doesn't NEED a downside for your team, maybe for you, but not them, that's how buffs work.
"Fascinating. I'm not bored at all, I swear." -Kikuchiyo