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You forgot to mention perma hasten and perma sould drain (should you choose to go //dark, which you should). And capped defense with weave/cj/maneuvers. I say go for it, it's the best combo I've played.
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Originally Posted by Lucky666
I was looking at some different defender combos for me and a friend to duo and some of the strongest ones to mix.
emp: perma mez proterction, perma AB, perma fortitude, perma RAs though recovery aura may be redundant with perma AB, unlimted heals, abiltity to overcome nuke crashes. Sonic: crazy res debuffs. Seems like this combo could do some amazing things. Anyone think any other defender duo would be better performance wise? |
Sonic is amazing for single target damage, and the two of you would likely be able to duo archvillains, but there's a weakness in area damage for the sets. You should consider empathy/ice for one or both of them. Ice has some great area damage, while still being well above average in the single target damage area. It's not superior in all situations, but depending on your preferences you might get a lot more out of it.
I'd hazard to say no AT goes from as weak solo to as unstoppable paired as a duo of Empaths. For even more fun take them redside long enough to grab an Arachnobot Disruptor pet to buff silly as well (and quite perma, with capped defenses and nearly full time doubled Regen Auras to keep them alive).
As good a set as ice is, I would say sonic has it beat. The -res coming from two sources makes enemies melt away. And in all honesty, the AoE is not that big of a factor when AB/hasten has howl come up in 3 seconds, and the constant ~80% damage buff. Really, I think sonic might have ice beat on AoE due to howl coming up faster.
It alsoo helps in the late game with //dark mastery, as screech stacks nicely with oppressive gloom, and bosses are easily taken out of the fight.
And yes, duoing AVs is very easy to do. Sitting at capped defense and scrapper levels of regen, they can't put a dent in the duo.
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Either pair has the potential to be very potent. Stacked Screech = stunned bosses, stacked Freeze Ray = held bosses. Both pairs can all but ignore the remainder of the mob to kill the bosses, EBs, AVs one after the other. Minions and Lts are a non issue largely. The largest issue vs AV's for an Emp pair isn't survival, it's avoiding a draw as neither side can overcome the others regeneration and THAT is where a /sonic pairing pulls ahead by stacking large amounts of -resist on top of highly buffed blasts (2x Assault+Fort+Vigilance+Aim/Amplify). Flip side is while /sonic probably wins hands down vs hardened targets like resistant EB's, AV's etc ... Ice, particularly at that level of recharge, is going to lay down a minion killing barrage of continuous Ice Storms that /sonic really has no way to match, it would take a awful lot of Howls to dish out 400 to upwards of 800 damage per spawn that dropping 1 buffed Ice Storm apiece will do (Ice Stormsx2 +/- Aimx2, +/- PBU). So it really comes down to what is normal or intended for the duo to fight.|
Originally Posted by Pyro_Master_NA
As good a set as ice is, I would say sonic has it beat. The -res coming from two sources makes enemies melt away. And in all honesty, the AoE is not that big of a factor when AB/hasten has howl come up in 3 seconds, and the constant ~80% damage buff. Really, I think sonic might have ice beat on AoE due to howl coming up faster.
It alsoo helps in the late game with //dark mastery, as screech stacks nicely with oppressive gloom, and bosses are easily taken out of the fight. And yes, duoing AVs is very easy to do. Sitting at capped defense and scrapper levels of regen, they can't put a dent in the duo. |
On the otherhand as I think on it ... it's more like 1 Ice Storm each vs 3 Howls each over the same 15 or so seconds. 6 Howls isn't quite going to do the upper end of what Ice could do but I can see it comparing favorable to the low end of what those Ice Storms could do. Either way the clear loser is going to be the spawns those blasts are aimed at
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Agree with /ice or /sonic depending.
Ice has the especially broken property of gifting you a Blaster level nuke that on dual Emps is crashless, damage boosted, and recharges much faster.
As Doomguide said, it depends on if the pair wants to be duoing spawns set for 8 people or melting through AVs especially quickly. Doing one of each isn't a bad idea.
You know what? Make one of them sonic and one of them ice, I'm sure that will give just as good results.
Stacked Sonic Blasts are pretty amazing. I'd hate to give up the other 40-60% -res.
With Envenomed Dagger[s] AV's shouldn't be much of a problem.
Oh, and as far as
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The regen level is much higher than that. regens get up to, what, about 1500% during Instant Healing? Paired Empathy gets to at least 2000% once Adrenaline Boost kicks in.
| Sitting at capped defense and scrapper levels of regen |
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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Yep with all the buffs going the Emp pair will be sitting at the regen cap for defenders or right around 2000%. The real difference of course is the much higher health for the scrapper ... his actually hp/sec regen is going to be much higher (and if receiving outside buffs his actually cap is up around 3000% or so as I recall)
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
Stacked Sonic Blasts are pretty amazing. I'd hate to give up the other 40-60% -res.
With Envenomed Dagger[s] AV's shouldn't be much of a problem. Oh, and as far as The regen level is much higher than that. regens get up to, what, about 1500% during Instant Healing? Paired Empathy gets to at least 2000% once Adrenaline Boost kicks in. |
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I compared it on mids a while back, and although the % numbers are much larger for defnders, their lower health means the hp/sec is about the same. Keep in mind though, my comparison was with my mids IO'd regen scrapper who was at the scrap cap (haha I rhymed) for hp, and the defender was not running auras, because I found better power picks once AB is factored in. With RA going, they may pass up the scrappers a bit, but with that much defense, plus tough and epic shield res, the regen is a last resort. And honestly, I still say go 2 sonics, I just am a bit fed up with arguing on the forums so I compromised a still viable option haha |
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Stacked Sonic Blasts are pretty amazing. I'd hate to give up the other 40-60% -res.
With Envenomed Dagger[s] AV's shouldn't be much of a problem. Oh, and as far as The regen level is much higher than that. regens get up to, what, about 1500% during Instant Healing? Paired Empathy gets to at least 2000% once Adrenaline Boost kicks in. |
I'm surprised no one said this but I would pair it as emp/sonic and emp/rad for defense and res debuffing, and you can slot tons of achilles heel procs for even MORE res debuffs. And yes, //dark is the only choice for that combo. And whoever mention screech and oppressive gloom...uh why? They're already tanks, what's the point of mezzing the mobs? That's taking away from the damage they should be pouring out.
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Screech/OG is used for anything that might have defense debuffs, as that is really their only weak point. By stunning those mobs with an AoE mag 4 stun and pinpointed mag6/10 in range/melee, defense debuffs simply won't get through. And another layer of protection is always good when they have such low hp.|
Originally Posted by BL00DBATH
I'm surprised no one said this but I would pair it as emp/sonic and emp/rad for defense and res debuffing, and you can slot tons of achilles heel procs for even MORE res debuffs. And yes, //dark is the only choice for that combo. And whoever mention screech and oppressive gloom...uh why? They're already tanks, what's the point of mezzing the mobs? That's taking away from the damage they should be pouring out.
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And as they are already tanks like you said, they already have more than enough +tohit, so /rad would be pointless. With 2 tactics and fortitude, they don't even need to slot for accuracy against +4s, so debuffing defense is kind of pointless. And for team settings, people will have acc slotted up, and tactics will cap them to +4s.
*Edit* Also, the achilles' Heel debuff cannot stack with itself, so the most it can do per target is -20res, and that comes from one blast from sonic, and sonic's can stack with themselves. And the proc won't be guaranteed to go off like sonic's, so it's hurting damage. And screech can actually help damage, as its debuff lasts 20 seconds, much longer than the others. And since it's used on problem enemies as a first attack, that debuff will probably last the whole life of that enemy.
You make very valid points and I forgot about the single stacking of the achilles heel but it will stack with the gladiator's fury or w/e the pbaoe pvp set is -res proc that u can put into irradiate and hit often. But yeah you are probably right dual sonic attack probably is superior overall...but I don't like to use mez powers if you don't have to and cones like howl take more time to set up than pbaoes like irradiate. I really don't think you could go wrong with any of the faster blasting decent aoe damage sets when you are pairing two emps. I have both a rad/sonic and an emp/rad and I much prefer the rad/sonic. I also have a sonic/mm blaster that I like a lot so it isn't like I don't like sonic. Just think a lil variety in the pair would spice things up.
My personal choice would in fact be 2 Emp/Sonics. That said I think any 2 Emps are so potent compared to whatever they are going up against its a bit like comparing how fast a category 4 vs a category 5 hurricane will demolish the trailer park. 
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I agree with this opinion, but some people might think a sets of twins could be unique enough that the concept uniqueness outweighs the want for some individual uniqueness.|
Originally Posted by BL00DBATH
Just think a lil variety in the pair would spice things up.
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That aside, tho, even if you had 2 Emp/Sons, their builds could end up fairly different.
As a thought, how about a Emp/Son Def and a Sonic/Pain Cor?
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Could be very nasty for much the same reason any Empath who's been redside could get very nasty ... a pet from a Patron pool. The thing that jumps out that would keep me from saying the pairing is notably stronger is lack of +defense in any of the corrupter buffs. Not sure how readily that deficit could be made up in the duo partner ... +23% or so, in particular vs ALL, is tough to make up.|
Originally Posted by Madadh
I agree with this opinion, but some people might think a sets of twins could be unique enough that the concept uniqueness outweighs the want for some individual uniqueness.
That aside, tho, even if you had 2 Emp/Sons, their builds could end up fairly different. As a thought, how about a Emp/Son Def and a Sonic/Pain Cor? |
And DOH no AB and its massive Recharge boost either.
I hope you don't think healing will keep you alive in this game. This isn't like other MMOs where you can just heal and keep anyone from dying. You need passive mitigation as well, especially on a low-HP Defender. Fortitude is about a 22.5% buff to defense, but that will only get you halfway to the soft-cap (45% defense). As the game gets harder in higher levels, you may find it challenging to stay alive with Empathy, especially if you try to run missions at x8.
Invention sets and pool powers can help you reach the soft cap. However, the majority of the good invention sets are hard to obtain before level 50 due to the cost.
Cold Domination, Force Field, and Traps offer defense buffs. Force Field gives more defense than the others, but lacks other powers that teams would want, like debuffs.
Radiation Emission has a very nice to-hit debuff that is centered around one enemy. It is equivalent to a defense buff, but you have to make sure the enemies don't move out of it. Radiation Emission has a heal and some very nice debuffs and a nice buff: Accelerate Metabolism.
Dark Miasma has a damage debuff and to-hit debuff that is laid on the floor. Again, enemies have to stay in it.
Sonic Resonance gives nice resistance buffs, but stacking defense to the soft cap is usually more effective than having a little defense and a little resistance.
While Empathy is a nice set, healing is not the best form of mitigation in the game. Two Empaths paired together may level easily in the beginning, but it may get too hard to duo in the 30's and 40's. At 50, good teams want resistance debuffs more than anything. If you're busy healing, you won't be attacking. If you're busy attacking, you won't be healing. A primary power set that does its job while you attack would make you more effective overall.
In my experience, teams that advertise for healers frequently struggle due to not having defense or good mitigation from damage. They rely too much on the Empath to keep them alive. My SG leader has been blamed for party wipes, when it is really the team leader's fault for not recruiting enough of the right kind of support classes. Teams should be looking for mitigation first, then heals. Good teams get debuffs as well. Changing one of your duo's primary set would make your pair even more attractive to a good team.
Not sure who or what you are replying to @Syntax42 (post in the wrong thread?) but this portion of the post worries me:
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I utterly agree with the first part (of the overall post), the part about healing and also agree if you are actively healing with any frequency damage output is going to plummet rapidly. The portion commenting on the ease with which an Emp duo might level in the level 30 and onward game on the otherhand ... well an Emp duo is going to have to look for major challenges to slow them down much. Anything which slows them much is likely to be quite problematic for many other sets pairings as well. Once an Emp duo has and slots up Adrenaline Boost there should be very little in the majority of the game that can do much to stop them except themselves. Stopping to heal is the very last thing an Emp duo will ever be doing, and infinitely so if specifically built to team together. They should be attacking essentially non-stop excluding time spent maintaining their buffs on each other. And they should be doing so with endless recovery, capped defenses to anything defendable, capped regen rates, and mez protection from pretty much everything. And all of that with absolutely none of it reliant on any foes being around.| ... Two Empaths paired together may level easily in the beginning, but it may get too hard to duo in the 30's and 40's. ... |
Edit for typo
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I think it's pretty much assumed that (particularly now that Fitness doesn't take up one of your pool picks) each Defender will take Leadership and Fighting.|
Originally Posted by Syntax42
I hope you don't think healing will keep you alive in this game. This isn't like other MMOs where you can just heal and keep anyone from dying. You need passive mitigation as well, especially on a low-HP Defender. Fortitude is about a 22.5% buff to defense, but that will only get you halfway to the soft-cap (45% defense). As the game gets harder in higher levels, you may find it challenging to stay alive with Empathy, especially if you try to run missions at x8.
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Fortitude + 2xManeuvers + Weave fully slotted is around 41-42%. throw in CJ, Hover or IOs and you easily softcap.
(EDIT: not that dual Emps would even have needed to waste a pool on fitness given perma RAs)
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
Clear Mind is Mag 12+ Status Protection
Fortitude + (Maneuvers x 2) + Hover is ~ 38 defense all. The Fighting Pool isn't even needed.
Regen/Recovery Aura + Adrenaline Boost is over 2000 regen and more recovery than you should ever need. AB on each other makes the Aura's permanent when staggered even with an SO build. An IO Build can cap your recharge dropping the aura's to 100 seconds recharge, or nearly perma doubled, not that there would be any point to having Regen and Recovery so far over the caps.
If:
- Mag 12 Status Protection
- 38 Defense All
- 110 hp/s Regen
Isn't enough to keep you alive, you need to find a new line of work.
Add Weave or Defense Sets and you can easily make that 45+ defense all.
Green Machine Build FAQ
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Level 32 = adrenaline boost.|
Originally Posted by Syntax42
While Empathy is a nice set, healing is not the best form of mitigation in the game. Two Empaths paired together may level easily in the beginning, but it may get too hard to duo in the 30's and 40's.
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AB turns one guy into a god ~50% of the time. Trading ABs between 2 characters turns them both into gods permanently.
If you're healing ever, you're playing this combo badly.
Look up the Green Machine.
I was looking at some different defender combos for me and a friend to duo and some of the strongest ones to mix.
emp: perma mez proterction, perma AB, perma fortitude, perma RAs though recovery aura may be redundant with perma AB, unlimted heals, abiltity to overcome nuke crashes.
Sonic: crazy res debuffs.
Seems like this combo could do some amazing things. Anyone think any other defender duo would be better performance wise?