Well you certainly aren't helping your team by attacking, running away for 10 seconds to get in hide again, attacking, running away for 10 seconds to get in hide again, attacking...
Characters!:
Pinny - Scrapper
Shadewing - Defender
@Pinny
Things my lvl 50 DB/regen stalker contributes to teams:
-- Take out the bosses/buffers/annoying mobs like sappers before they know what hit them. Shadowmeld is very helpful for surviving this.
-- Placate bosses/buffers/annoying mobs and take them out before they know what hit them.
-- Add DPS. Not as good as a scrapper, but damage is damage.
-- Scout when asked. Especially useful what figuring out how to pull on groups of AVs, ghosting glowies, or seeing if there is a second mob out of sight on the ledge.
-- Vengence bait 
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Sounds like you're doing it wrong, OP.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Quite possible, but tell me how to do it right, then... : )
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Sounds like you're doing it wrong, OP.
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Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
Don't concentrate on getting out of battle and going back into Hide, instead concentrate on using Placate+AS to hit your Boss or AV with Demoralize. If you keep getting interrupted because you aren't Def-based, try waiting a while and then backing out to Hide so you can reapply the Demoralize. In other words, use Hide not for the AS, but for the -Def to AoE.
You shouldn't feel like an "underpowered Scrapper". Don't listen to people who say that. On that large a team you should have been doing plenty of damage.
What is your primary? In virtually all cases you want to avoid AS on teams.
On my Dark/Dark Placate-MG drops a +2 minion reliably, and adding a single smite drops a lieut. Those are extremely fast. Running my auras and focusing on single-target kills, I do rather a lot. Having a mag 30 AoE stun + vengeance bait is nice. And I have the survivability to hold it together if a bunch of the team go down. If I do the pull, placate can turn back an unwanted enemy from a medium-bad pull.
On my spines, while yes a spines scrapper has more and better AoE, I still do just fine. Again AS is not the tool of choice, rather throw spines with it's big cone and high crit chance, something the scrapper can't match. Placate+Throw Spines is also up often enough that between the initial hit from hidden, and a later placate-throwspines, I think I might be out damaging the equivalent scrapper thanks to my stalker powers.
Again, hit and run is really a bad way to play a stalker on a team. Start hidden and use placate a lot. Hide right in plain sight, don't run and return.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
My powerset on this toon is energy/energy
Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
Also note that stalkers get a buff to their critical chance when within 30' of team members, each additional member boosting your chance by 3%. As such, an melee-heavy teams a 'scrapping' stalker adds more damage than a scrapper. So if your team is grouped up, get in shoulder to shoulder and you should help with damage contributed.
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I didn't know this. Is it new? Like I said, my stalker was leveled up right away. Good to know.
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Originally Posted by Seldom
Also note that stalkers get a buff to their critical chance when within 30' of team members, each additional member boosting your chance by 3%. As such, an melee-heavy teams a 'scrapping' stalker adds more damage than a scrapper. So if your team is grouped up, get in shoulder to shoulder and you should help with damage contributed.
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Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
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It was a couple issues back. Basically, stalkers now have a 10% crit chance out of hide, higher hp, and a chance for fear/-tohit on their AS when it doesn't kill the target. Yes, the 3% boost per team member stacks with the 10% out of hide, meaning you can surpass scrapper critical rates with 2-3 members closeby.|
Originally Posted by shaggy5
I didn't know this. Is it new? Like I said, my stalker was leveled up right away. Good to know.
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paragon wiki has the rundown: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Stalker
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It's been in since issue 12.|
Originally Posted by shaggy5
I didn't know this. Is it new? Like I said, my stalker was leveled up right away. Good to know.
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With EM, the extra criticals don't help as much, though, because EM has a reduced damage critical with Total Focus, and the only "critical" ET has does no extra damage but it doesn't take your hit points.
Given the purely single-target focus in your primary, you should kill any problems before they ever get a chance to become a problem - and if there aren't any problem mobs than any bosses shouldn't last longer than the time it takes for AoEs to take out the lieutenants. If you grabbed any AoEs in your epic/patron pool you can use them to help out, but if you wanted a lot of AoE damage EM isn't a good powerset, no matter which AT you have it on.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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While I agree some Stalker sets just don't do well on a large team, Cuda SF is a rare situation where there is really no down time in the last fight. You basically either use your temp power to kill the ambushes (which many people don't care much for as they enjoy killing) or you try to fight the ambushes with limited aoe attacks. |
Originally Posted by shaggy5
I have a few stalkers, but only one high level stalker. I got him to 50 because I wanted a level 50 villain when CoV first came out. I never play him, but them the WTF came out and I jumped on a Cuda SF last night. OMG, I realized how much I don't enjoy stalkers last night, at least on a team. I felt like I either had to play as an underpowered scrapper or I had to be out of the fight often to try to get "hidden". No wonder I don't play this toon!
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I enjoyed my Spines Stalker last time I brought him to Cuda but I will not bring my MA Stalker to there when I hit 50. Even with one aoe from patron, my ST damage just won't fit my need in that situation.
And don't try to re-hide again if you don't have to. I sometimes re-hide *wait for 8s* because my endurance is low and I am saving that big hit on the left over bosses.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Originally Posted by shaggy5
My powerset on this toon is energy/energy
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Well, Energy Melee is one problem why you feel your Stalker isn't contributing much on a team. EM has no aoe and I take it that since your stalker is old, he probably doesn't have aoe attack from patron right? Well, there you go. You only have single target damage in an TF that has hundreds of ambush towards the end. That's the problem.
I will try to respec him to get at least one aoe if you pve a lot and see how you like it. You don't have to always start with BU + Assassin Strike. Many stalkers are limiting themselves to that idea and feel that after the initial 10s (after AS, Total Focus and Energy Transfer), most of the mobs are already dead. If the team's setting is on +0 or +1, you can start with just BU + AoE because aoe attacks from patron have 50% critical chance.
And I've also seen Stalkers that insist on Assassin Striking a Boss when the team already has dominators holding them first. If a boss is held, he has no threat. You can use AS on a lieut like Night Widow or Longbow Lieut (their sonic grenade probably does more harm to the whole team than a single boss).
And try to fight WITH your teammates and not far away. You get 3% critical chance from your teammate within 30 radius. 30 radius isn't that big.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Well...and this is not a slight against you OP, because I don't play that way.
I find with a slot of the scrappy/stalker players that they charge a lot. Stalkers charge and "Run" a lot, and mostly what I have experienced on teams is a Stalker itching to see the giant "Assassins Strike" font only to find the hospital button popping up.
I know...I have seen it and done it too with my Widow and my Stalker.
The issue I have is with the patients and believing that being invis is like being invulnerable. A ton of stalkers contribute to damage, but mainly when the focus is redirected from them. Thats when they appear to shine the most.
Going in guns blazing is a tanks job...or a blaster because they are usually insane to begin with and love debt more than I like candy!!!
Stalkers of all classes should be patient. I mean...it sort of implies it in the name right. To stalk? Stalking...Skulking, hiding...assassinating things by watching their every move.
But the itch gets to the scrappies and the stalkies. I don't personally mind, but when I am on my Emp Defender Stalkers are usually the ones I res second to blasters...which I have mentioned above.
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As others have mentioned, I'd recommend getting some AoE from the APPs to round yourself out and look at what non-AS options you have after placate. I think bonesmasher will kill a minion after placate, and placate-bonesmash+energy punch should be enough to take a lieut. Waterspout and the leviathain guardian would be another option rather than just AoE atacks from APPs.|
Originally Posted by shaggy5
My powerset on this toon is energy/energy
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/energy does ok without running to get hide back. Shame it doesn't have too many tricks up its sleeve though.
You've got good stun capability to augment killing so should be able to switch targets without killing them often and provide solid benefit to the team. IE, get a lieut or boss down to 10%, then move on leaving it stunned and about to die on the next AoE any team member tosses out.
Between removing key minions and lieut's instantly out of initial hide, and some of the tips people have offered here I'd think you should be able to do fine on a team feeling stalkery and not just feeling scrappery.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Regardless of how you try and put it, a stalker on a team is in fact a scrapper that can put up a ton of damage at the start of a fight. With going rogue now, why would somebody keep a stalker on a team if all they do is go for the assassin strike and nothing else? In that case I'd get a scrapper...At least then there's a team member doing consistent damage
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Originally Posted by Nyx
Well...and this is not a slight against you OP, because I don't play that way.
I find with a slot of the scrappy/stalker players that they charge a lot. Stalkers charge and "Run" a lot, and mostly what I have experienced on teams is a Stalker itching to see the giant "Assassins Strike" font only to find the hospital button popping up. I know...I have seen it and done it too with my Widow and my Stalker. The issue I have is with the patients and believing that being invis is like being invulnerable. A ton of stalkers contribute to damage, but mainly when the focus is redirected from them. Thats when they appear to shine the most. Going in guns blazing is a tanks job...or a blaster because they are usually insane to begin with and love debt more than I like candy!!! Stalkers of all classes should be patient. I mean...it sort of implies it in the name right. To stalk? Stalking...Skulking, hiding...assassinating things by watching their every move. But the itch gets to the scrappies and the stalkies. I don't personally mind, but when I am on my Emp Defender Stalkers are usually the ones I res second to blasters...which I have mentioned above. |
Characters!:
Pinny - Scrapper
Shadewing - Defender
@Pinny
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Yeah, Assassin Strike is like a Sniper attack from a ranged AT, it's an opener meant to put a lot of damage on a single target right at the start of the fight. Most of the time, with the intention of taking that target out. Once you get the melee going, the Stalker's strength is in his Criticals from standard attacks. (Or with EM, the ability to Energy Transfer without losing any health) |
Originally Posted by Pinny
Regardless of how you try and put it, a stalker on a team is in fact a scrapper that can put up a ton of damage at the start of a fight. With going rogue now, why would somebody keep a stalker on a team if all they do is go for the assassin strike and nothing else? In that case I'd get a scrapper...At least then there's a team member doing consistent damage
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As I like to say, the Stalker's Inherent is not Assassin Strike. It is "Assassination", a power that lets EVERY attack you have Crit from hide. AS is just a special case.
OTOH, the ability to Demoralize with AS does have a role on a team, just not so great a role that you want to be using it constantly. Whether you AS for Demoralize or Damage, it is a capstone to the fight. The foundation is in scrapping and using Placate/Crit from Hide.
For instance, the advice to use AS on a Lt. instead of a Boss in order to take out a problem foe quickly may not be the most efficient use of AS after all. Assuming that you can do enough damage with a Crit from your most damaging attack to kill that foe, an AS would be overkill. You have to be in Hide anyway, so it's just a matter of deciding whether to use AS or that standard attack.
AS really should only be used against Bosses or better. The only exception is if you want to take out TWO tough foes with your first strike, at which time the AS-BU-Placate-Attack combo will usually do that.
I do agree that Stalkers should be patient. A Stalker doesn't have to strike without knowing the environment, and he shouldn't. And a Stalker shouldn't be the first to strike, although he should usually be the second. But there's usually no need for caution once the battle starts.
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I wont disagree with anything you have said, but I think a well placed Stalker is in fact a great tool for a team. Scrappers are excellent, but I wont sneeze at the Stalker because it has solid merits, but that being said, experienced Stalker players know whats going on and when to strike.|
Originally Posted by Pinny
Regardless of how you try and put it, a stalker on a team is in fact a scrapper that can put up a ton of damage at the start of a fight. With going rogue now, why would somebody keep a stalker on a team if all they do is go for the assassin strike and nothing else? In that case I'd get a scrapper...At least then there's a team member doing consistent damage
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I for instance see a lot of Elec doms/controllers wondering why they die right away. Chained fences is amazing, but like the Stalker itching for the first blow, it gains them the fortunate benefit of the Alpha Strike. Yay!!!
Im saying, Let the tank or tankier types do their thing. You will still dish damage or control, just not as much as some others, but knowing your role in a group is important. I learned that with my dark/dark Stalker and more my Widow. Im not a tank, can't take the alpha, should be taking it unless Im teamed with those who are less tankier than I am.
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I agree. I think it's a "toe the line" thing, though, you can go too far one way or the other. Don't just be a Scrapper and completely ignore your unique capabilties, but don't concentrate on that to the detriment of everything else, either. |
Originally Posted by Nyx
Im saying, Let the tank or tankier types do their thing. You will still dish damage or control, just not as much as some others, but knowing your role in a group is important. I learned that with my dark/dark Stalker and more my Widow. Im not a tank, can't take the alpha, should be taking it unless Im teamed with those who are less tankier than I am.
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And a Stalker taking the Alpha Strike is just crazy.
Since I play primarily blueside, I didn't have much exposure to Stalkers until GR. My favorite AT is Blaster, and I have to say that Stalkers feel very Blaster. That's not at all to say you should avoid aggro. Absolutely scrap it out once you've done your AS thing.
I prioritize targets much like a Blaster, in that the things that you can take down quickly should be taken out quickly. I'll Placate a Boss to get his aggro off me, then turn around and SLAM a lieut to remove them from the fight ASAP.
Funny story that's a little related: I was teamed up with a Corruptor in Praetoria, and she invites her significant other who is also a Stalker. I had to full-on tank because he would run in, AS, run away to wait for hide/AS to recharge, and repeat. I kept asking, "Where are you going?" and never got a response. I have no idea how this 48 month vet (if I remember correctly) could watch a Stalker stay in the fight, and think his was incapable of the same.
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This!!! And Ill explain.|
Originally Posted by Gehnen
Stalker. I had to full-on tank because he would run in, AS, run away to wait for hide/AS to recharge, and repeat. .
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DnD mentality!!! (Or WoW) Rogues...which this class feels like in many or all aspects of combat (Other than disarming traps etc) has burst damage on surprise, but limited armour (Canadian...so sue me)...and cant handle the brunt of an Alpha. Some can, if built that way,but many people, including me come to this AT with the concept of the DnD rogue. Which is an excellent class build on bursty goodness. The only concern is with a group. Alone they are amazing, usually because they pick their targets very closely.
However, when in a team with a tank and others one sometimes forgets exactly what they can do, and considering this is (From my understanding) mainly a villains AT, a Brute can hold aggro but not like a tank which leaves the Stalker being the next object of doom fore most enemies.
But now I argue the issue of aggro. To say a Stalker is not more desirable than a Scrapper depends. If a tank can hold Aggro better than a brute, would a stalker not be more efficient in a hero based environment. I mean, they have mega damage, and the tank takes the brunt, or the blaster, because technically the burst damage by the Stalker will be out classed by the Blaster who will, or can draw aggro off the tank easier due to consistant damage.
Ah...Im drunk....(Or as we Canadians call it...NormaL)
I ramble. The point is. The issue with group Stalking is a Stalker role. You are not meant to take the Alpha. You are meant to hit the hardest enemy the hardest you can, and then Scrap it out with Scrappers! It's your burst that makes you special.
Although I think you are all special!
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I don't have an energy/ or /energy stalker yet, but have 7 other combos sitting at level 50 and I'll have to say some of them are nearly as tough as my scrappers (and can equal/exceed my much loved NW's abilities as well) in terms of survival and damage. My DM/nin, MA/regen and NB/WP all see a lot of playtime.|
Originally Posted by shaggy5
I have a few stalkers, but only one high level stalker. I got him to 50 because I wanted a level 50 villain when CoV first came out. I never play him, but them the WTF came out and I jumped on a Cuda SF last night. OMG, I realized how much I don't enjoy stalkers last night, at least on a team. I felt like I either had to play as an underpowered scrapper or I had to be out of the fight often to try to get "hidden". No wonder I don't play this toon!
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Stalkers used to be known as a "hit and run" AT but times have changed, they can scrap it out quite well now. I'm having a lot of fun running mine through the incarnate content, the only downside I'm seeing with them is it has proven difficult to secure spots on these weekly strike forces (read: not one bite yet since it went live with the stalker toons).
Who knows, maybe they really are broken and really do suck and I just don't see it because I'm having too much fun with them =D.
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I think too many Stalkers are stuck with the idea that you MUST assassinate a boss first. I think 70% of the time it's a good idea but I've found that sometimes, especially when you are on a large team, your Assassin Strike is overkill because somebody is already pounding on the boss. |
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
For instance, the advice to use AS on a Lt. instead of a Boss in order to take out a problem foe quickly may not be the most efficient use of AS after all. Assuming that you can do enough damage with a Crit from your most damaging attack to kill that foe, an AS would be overkill. You have to be in Hide anyway, so it's just a matter of deciding whether to use AS or that standard attack. |
Assassin Strike can't be used in an attack chain after you reveal so if there are two annoying lieuts (like Night Widow and Bane), you can easily BU + AS a Night Widow to death and then unleash the rest of the attack chain on Bane (who you probably can't assassinate in one hit depending on the difficulty and damage type).
It's also important to know who to kill first based on your damage type. You can probably kill a +1 Lieut Mu with lethal/smashing damage but not with dark/energy. And also which damage type hurts the main tank the most. If it's an /Energy aura or /Invul, you probably want to kill whoever does the most psionic damage.
And once you are higher level and doing +2 or +3 difficulty, your BU + AS is hardly "over-kill". In fact, lethal damage with BU on Longbow Lieut can't kill him in one hit.
It sucks. I would say once the setting is at +2, your BU + AS is just about right to kill a lieut and maybe add one more hit.Demoralized is random and it works much better when you solo or on a small team. And I still believe Demoralized should happen whether you one-shot the target or not.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I've been working on filling out my roster with at least one of every archetype and Stalker is the only one I've left blank. Based on everything I've seen, there's no reason to make one for teaming. Many people are stripping their Stalkers of IO sets to put them on something else, even off PVP builds.
Teams are fast now. Good teams are incredibly fast. In a game of fast gameplay, Stalkers are an entire AT that feels like the "Devices" secondary, needing time to setup in order to be at their best. You can either slow down the team to let the Stalker stalk or you can steamroll. Only a rare team will actually want to slow things down and drag out the game so that the Stalker can feel he's contributing to the best of his abilities, so you end up with Stalkers stuck in a watered-down Scrapper mode.
With that in mind, Stalkers seem to make the most sense in a solo or all-Stalker team context where everyone is on the same track. Otherwise, it's back to being a watered-down Scrapper.
I have a few stalkers, but only one high level stalker. I got him to 50 because I wanted a level 50 villain when CoV first came out. I never play him, but them the WTF came out and I jumped on a Cuda SF last night. OMG, I realized how much I don't enjoy stalkers last night, at least on a team. I felt like I either had to play as an underpowered scrapper or I had to be out of the fight often to try to get "hidden". No wonder I don't play this toon!
Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers