So just what are all the modifier Fields and their levels?
By
AzureSkyCiel,
Posted on: 2011-01-29 20:12 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Paragon wiki is a great place to looks up mods for the ATs. Red tomax might have them too but i never use it.
Also, in reality Scrappers>brutes>tanks>stalkers when it comes to melee dmg. (dont worry stalker lovers im only joking, plz dont AS meh) :P
However, doms actually have the 2nd highest melee dmg mod.
HEAT nova forms have the highest ranged dmg mod, of course blasters still do more dmg.
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1) I've searched that wiki everywhere but could never find the mods. Maybe a link would help.|
Originally Posted by ultrawatt
Paragon wiki is a great place to looks up mods for the ATs. Red tomax might have them too but i never use it.
Also, in reality Scrappers>brutes>tanks>stalkers when it comes to melee dmg. (dont worry stalker lovers im only joking, plz dont AS meh) :P However, doms actually have the 2nd highest melee dmg mod. HEAT nova forms have the highest ranged dmg mod, of course blasters still do more dmg. |
2) If we're talking about base damage, brutes have the LOWEST base damage, period. Brutes with fury however outdamage Scrappers so long as they can keep that fury bar high, if measuring equal attacks, with the exception of pseudopet attacks since those are capped at 400% base (and hence with equal damage bonuses, scrappers can potentially take the lead.)
City of Data is where I always go to look up the modifiers. It's a bit on the technical side for what you're thinking of, since it breaks down *everything* and also keeps track of the level scaling (so if you want, say, the mez duration or damage modifiers, you have to look at the level 50 row), but almost every modifier in the game is in there, all in one place.
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Took me a moment to find it, but:
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Damage_Scale
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Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
City of Data is where I always go to look up the modifiers. It's a bit on the technical side for what you're thinking of, since it breaks down *everything* and also keeps track of the level scaling (so if you want, say, the mez duration or damage modifiers, you have to look at the level 50 row), but almost every modifier in the game is in there, all in one place.
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You know I never knew this existed before. Thanks.
Now that I've seen it, I can't help but notice some of the settings are kind of weird.
Example: Tankers and Brutes have higher knockback modifiers than Controllers and Defenders. Looking at actual powers in Mids confirms this (e.g. Controller Energy Torrent vs Tanker.) Scrappers and Stalkers have identical mods. Out of all ATs Corruptors and Blasters have the lowest KB mods.
Assuming I'm reading the numbers right, other surprises to me are:
- Controllers and Blasters have the same endurance drain modifier (Defenders are 25% better than either)
- Stalkers have Taunt modifiers identical to Tankers and Brutes but higher than Scrappers (good thing they can't get AAO?). All 4 of the HEATS and VEATS are better taunters than Scrappers are.
- Mastermind defense and resistance buffs are identical to Controllers. However, their healing is worse. I have somehow never picked up on this before. Confirmed via comparison of Controller/MM Force Field and Thermal.
- There is no difference between Tanker, Scrapper, Stalker, and Brute stun or fear durations, despite sets like Dark Armor which trade defense or protection for these effects
- Whatever the effects of the Ranged_Stun table are, Corruptors have the lowest multiplier all of ATs, even Blasters. The Archery power Stunning Shot appears to confirm this.
On ParagonWiki, there is a list of all the numbers for each archetype on their respective articles, in the infobox in the upper right of the article. You might need to expand it to see them.
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Full, detailed character list
It's old and the formatting is broken, but a lot of the details originally started with iakona's Power Data Standardization v2.0 (Issue 7) thread.
There's also a spreadsheet out there that consolidates all the data.
Found a copy.
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How I think it should be:
Tankers should have better mods for Stuns, Holds, KB and Sleeps than the other melees (probably equal to or just below Doms/Controllers) because they generally have the same role as Controllers, crowd control.
Stalkers should have the best mods for Fear of any AT. They should probably have better debuff mods than the other melees or adjusted debuffs on certain powers. They should also have better ToHit buff mods than Scrappers.
Scrappers have the highest Damage buff mod of the melees but should probably have the lowest ToHit buff mod. Scrappers should have better Endurance Mod scales than the other melees but lower debuff mods.
Brutes have high caps for HP, Damage and Resists, they should probably have low caps for ToHit and accuracy buffs, as well as lower numbers for Endurance Mod powers. Brutes should have middle-of-the-road mods for controls and debuffs while Stalker/Scrappers have lower controls and Stalkers/Tankers have higher debuffs.
Blasters I feel are perfect, honestly. I wouldn't want to change anything they have. Except maybe improve their ToHit buff mods to equal what a Stalker gets.
Dominators also feel pretty good but I wouldn't mind seeing their ally buff mods for defense, resists, healing and damage increased to defender levels (they don't get that many buffs anyway).
I can't really post about the other ATs as I haven't really played them in ages.
Anyway, what about the caps?
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
How I think it should be:
Tankers should have better mods for Stuns, Holds, KB and Sleeps than the other melees (probably equal to or just below Doms/Controllers) because they generally have the same role as Controllers, crowd control. Stalkers should have the best mods for Fear of any AT. They should probably have better debuff mods than the other melees or adjusted debuffs on certain powers. They should also have better ToHit buff mods than Scrappers. Scrappers have the highest Damage buff mod of the melees but should probably have the lowest ToHit buff mod. Scrappers should have better Endurance Mod scales than the other melees but lower debuff mods. Brutes have high caps for HP, Damage and Resists, they should probably have low caps for ToHit and accuracy buffs, as well as lower numbers for Endurance Mod powers. Brutes should have middle-of-the-road mods for controls and debuffs while Stalker/Scrappers have lower controls and Stalkers/Tankers have higher debuffs. Blasters I feel are perfect, honestly. I wouldn't want to change anything they have. Except maybe improve their ToHit buff mods to equal what a Stalker gets. Dominators also feel pretty good but I wouldn't mind seeing their ally buff mods for defense, resists, healing and damage increased to defender levels (they don't get that many buffs anyway). I can't really post about the other ATs as I haven't really played them in ages. Anyway, what about the caps? |
Due to the way power selections work I feel balance as a whole is pretty decent. There are a few weird hiccups (Corruptor stuns) but it overall isn't all that bad. However, if there were any particular thing I'd change, Blaster's personal defenses would be better than or equal to Dominators. However they would continue to have no access to mezz protection.
Unrelated to this, as I said in another recent thread, I would give Stalkers -Regen and maybe -Healing in some of their attacks. I feel that in giving up AoE they should be the absolute masters of single target destruction, and at the very least should be comparable to sets like Radiation Emission and Cold Domination. The fact that they currently aren't raises my eyebrows. I would love to see a day when teams say "We have a hard target we need to take down... where can we get a Stalker?"
Limits found here.
Do note that some powers/abilities may use slightly different limits due to how the powers work. For example, pseudopet powers (rain-type attacks, patches, lightning rod, shield charge) all have max 400% base damage (excluding crits, scourge, and the like).
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And this is where I feel you're wrong.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Unrelated to this, as I said in another recent thread, I would give Stalkers -Regen and maybe -Healing in some of their attacks. I feel that in giving up AoE they should be the absolute masters of single target destruction, and at the very least should be comparable to sets like Radiation Emission and Cold Domination. The fact that they currently aren't raises my eyebrows. I would love to see a day when teams say "We have a hard target we need to take down... where can we get a Stalker?" |
You feel that stalkers are giving up AoE while I believe they have 'enough' AoE. You feel they lack the edge on AoE and I'd agree with you, but it evens out with their AoE burst capabilities. You feel that since Stalkers have little AoE they should be better at single target while I think Stalkers should just be given sets that are considered good at AoE (you'd probably take back much of your stance if Stalkers got Tanker Fire melee with combustion exchanged for AS or with SS, having a 50% crit Footstomp or throwing the AT Shields to make use of Shield charge).
You shouldn't have to bolster one AT over the others to make them superior for certain situations. Do people say "Man, we've got lots of minions running around...where can we get a blaster?" Probably not because any schmuck with AoEs can handle this. So why should Stalkers be special? It's not fair.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
And this is where I feel you're wrong.
You feel that stalkers are giving up AoE while I believe they have 'enough' AoE. You feel they lack the edge on AoE and I'd agree with you, but it evens out with their AoE burst capabilities. You feel that since Stalkers have little AoE they should be better at single target while I think Stalkers should just be given sets that are considered good at AoE (you'd probably take back much of your stance if Stalkers got Tanker Fire melee with combustion exchanged for AS or with SS, having a 50% crit Footstomp or throwing the AT Shields to make use of Shield charge). You shouldn't have to bolster one AT over the others to make them superior for certain situations. Do people say "Man, we've got lots of minions running around...where can we get a blaster?" Probably not because any schmuck with AoEs can handle this. So why should Stalkers be special? It's not fair. |
This probably deserves its own topic to avoid derailing. I'll just say that bringing over new sets would not fix what already exists. It would be like bringing over Dark Miasma to Controllers to fix Sonic Resonance.
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*facepalm*
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
And this is where I feel you're wrong.
You feel that stalkers are giving up AoE while I believe they have 'enough' AoE. You feel they lack the edge on AoE and I'd agree with you, but it evens out with their AoE burst capabilities. You feel that since Stalkers have little AoE they should be better at single target while I think Stalkers should just be given sets that are considered good at AoE (you'd probably take back much of your stance if Stalkers got Tanker Fire melee with combustion exchanged for AS or with SS, having a 50% crit Footstomp or throwing the AT Shields to make use of Shield charge). You shouldn't have to bolster one AT over the others to make them superior for certain situations. Do people say "Man, we've got lots of minions running around...where can we get a blaster?" Probably not because any schmuck with AoEs can handle this. So why should Stalkers be special? It's not fair. |
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I believe that healing is typically based off of an AT's base hit points. MMs, having the lowest hit point base, would have lower heals.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
- Mastermind defense and resistance buffs are identical to Controllers. However, their healing is worse. I have somehow never picked up on this before. Confirmed via comparison of Controller/MM Force Field and Thermal.
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It may not hold true 100% of the time but if you look at heals shared among different ATs and caclulate them against base HP, they are usually consistent.
Obviously the heals aren't directly based on hit points, but rather a value in a table, so they could be wildly divergent, but the values in those tables seem to be picked based on an AT's hit points.
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But what is the issue here? That Stalkers have poor AoE? Or is it that Energy Melee has poor AoE across all ATs? When people complain about the amount of AoEs Stalkers have, they're comparing it across the AT not set by set. Otherwise, you can't say Stalkers lack AoE when you compare Stalker Spines vs Spines in general. Or Dark Melee over all. Or Electric Melee.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
This probably deserves its own topic to avoid derailing. I'll just say that bringing over new sets would not fix what already exists. It would be like bringing over Dark Miasma to Controllers to fix Sonic Resonance.
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Giving Stalkers the sets with AoE resolves many of the issues of them lacking AoEs.
As a dmg AT, Stalkers *are* fine and have tools for supplementing their average DPS with burst. You can disagree but then that'd be contradicting the devs decision to leave the AT where it's at. So it's really just going to be you pouting, which isn't very productive.
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Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
I believe that healing is typically based off of an AT's base hit points. MMs, having the lowest hit point base, would have lower heals.
It may not hold true 100% of the time but if you look at heals shared among different ATs and caclulate them against base HP, they are usually consistent. Obviously the heals aren't directly based on hit points, but rather a value in a table, so they could be wildly divergent, but the values in those tables seem to be picked based on an AT's hit points. |
Actually the ability to heal others (listed as Ranged_Heal and Melee_Heal in the tables apparantly) doesn't seem to have a connection to base HP. Defenders are best, Controllers and Corruptors are second-best. Masterminds are behind all of these but ahead of Scrappers, and Tankers. You may be thinking of regen or self heals.
i've been trying to put it together for awhile now, but i'd like to know: what are the different modifiers used among the different ATs as well as how are they quantified in a universal sense? here's what I know right now:
The different modifiers are:
-HP
-Armor
-Mez protection
-Control
-Debuff
-Buff
-ally heal
-Melee damage
-ranged damage
I also know that blasters have the highest ranged damage of all ATs, defenders have the best Buff and Debuff, Tankers are tied with SoAs and Defenders for best armor values, Scrappers deal the best melee damage followed very closely by stalkers, etc. etc.
Can anyone help clarify this all a little more for me?
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