Masterminds: Bonuses/Buffs Parity
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-01-25 13:37 in Suggestions and Ideas
You're wrong about Power Boost; its effect is to buff secondary effects like buffs and controls, and every MM gets a whole power set filled with those kinds of things.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
Ye gods, yes.
Frenzy for MMs should be an AoE, pet and self effect only.
I...think that damage bonuses add on to any power you can slot for that...same as acc and suchnot...which I think all transfer?
I may be wrong. And if I am, then I'd hope they could get changed so that more buff effects carry over.
Or, y'know, they could make MM personal attacks not suck so much, or cost as much end as a Blaster AoE attack. I'm guessing that changing one number would be too hard, though ¬¬
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Also, if you can't benefit as much from +Damage and +ToHit buffs from invention sets, build for something else. It's not like +Damage and +ToHit are the only useful set bonuses out there.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Wait, are we talking about the same MM's here? They are near god-like already. I have 3 at 50 and can do things my other toons can not remotely do. I am curious where you are finding MM underperforming compared to other ATs and thus lack of parity.
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My problem is with the fact the Hero alignment buff is ideal for MMs...|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
Wait, are we talking about the same MM's here? They are near god-like already. I have 3 at 50 and can do things my other toons can not remotely do. I am curious where you are finding MM underperforming compared to other ATs and thus lack of parity.
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And I want to stay a villain.
So...
Devs hate Villains
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Power Boost is pretty good, I am not sure if it transfers to "traps" as some traps are considered pets, I hope it does.
/Dark - More -To Hit, longer hold, longer Fear, More Heal, more -res (Tar Patch), etc
/FF increase Def to bubbles or KB to Force Bolt
/Thermal +Heal, +res on SHields, increased Debuffs on the Debuffs.
I do agree it would be nice if TemporaryPower.Frenzy would effect pets, but atleast you get +recharge. But /FF kinda gets screwed on that one, but other sets benefit from it.
I do agree, the Hero power is better suited for MMs.
@Blood Beret(2)Twitter
I am a bad speeler, use poorer grammar, and am a frequent typoist.
MA ArcID: 1197
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. Winston Churchill
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Power Boost does not boost resistance buffs or debuffs
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Originally Posted by Blood_Beret
Power Boost is pretty good, I am not sure if it transfers to "traps" as some traps are considered pets, I hope it does.
/Dark - More -To Hit, longer hold, longer Fear, More Heal, more -res (Tar Patch), etc /FF increase Def to bubbles or KB to Force Bolt /Thermal +Heal, +res on SHields, increased Debuffs on the Debuffs. I do agree it would be nice if TemporaryPower.Frenzy would effect pets, but atleast you get +recharge. But /FF kinda gets screwed on that one, but other sets benefit from it. I do agree, the Hero power is better suited for MMs. |
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Likewise it no longer boosts Knockback.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Power Boost does not boost resistance buffs or debuffs
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Honestly if they were to buff a MM's personal attacks, it would only come with a subsequent nerf to pet damage output. MM's are already a very powerful AT. There's not going to be an improvement in personal damage without rebalancing elsewhere.
Then you'd get complaints from a multitude of other MM players about how now, to meet their full potential they have to micromanage pets, Buff/debuff AND maintain their personal attacks all at the same time.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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Correct. However, the effects for every power (primary AND secondary) get boosted for any other AT with access to this power (Blasters, Controllers, Defenders, Dominators, Corruptors) while Masterminds only get our Secondary powers boosted (as, let's face it our attack powers in the primary are balanced to be dire vs. the henchmen attack powers - and rightly so).|
Originally Posted by Vanden
You're wrong about Power Boost; its effect is to buff secondary effects like buffs and controls, and every MM gets a whole power set filled with those kinds of things.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Also, if you can't benefit as much from +Damage and +ToHit buffs from invention sets, build for something else. It's not like +Damage and +ToHit are the only useful set bonuses out there.
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
Wait, are we talking about the same MM's here? They are near god-like already. I have 3 at 50 and can do things my other toons can not remotely do. I am curious where you are finding MM underperforming compared to other ATs and thus lack of parity.
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I'd like it if the devs can fix the issue, but otherwise I'm not going to lose sleep over it!
let pure's choose their pure alignment power and let gray's choose their gray allignment power
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I don't think Power Boost is any worse for Masterminds than Blasters. Aside from strengthening the already large to hit bonus of Aim, many primary sets get very little of a benefit (Fire/Archery/Energy, and arguably AR/Psi/Sonic).|
Originally Posted by Master Zaprobo
Correct. However, the effects for every power (primary AND secondary) get boosted for any other AT with access to this power (Blasters, Controllers, Defenders, Dominators, Corruptors) while Masterminds only get our Secondary powers boosted (as, let's face it our attack powers in the primary are balanced to be dire vs. the henchmen attack powers - and rightly so).
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Corruptors have that same problem; however the reason is because Power Boost is designed to strengthen secondary effects, not damage itself. Only Controllers have both a Primary and Secondary which are both designed to (most of the time) benefit from Power Boost. All other Archetypes, including Masterminds, must deal with the fact that Power Boost will only greatly (varies by power set) enhance one power set.
Masterminds just don't come with a couple visible exceptions to that rule like Blasters with Radiation Blast, or Corruptors with Dark Blast. Something that I believe just has to be accepted.
Your other points about Frenzy and Invention sets I completely agree with however. I just have no idea how they would change invention sets that wouldn't horribly break something somewhere (though I hope they try
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Favorite Hero: Computer (Empathy/Energy Blast Defender)
Favorite Villain: Gimp Computer (Fire Control/Psionic Assault Dominator)
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I did not know that. Thanks for the info. Then it is pretty useless on an MM.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Power Boost does not boost resistance buffs or debuffs
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@Blood Beret(2)Twitter
I am a bad speeler, use poorer grammar, and am a frequent typoist.
MA ArcID: 1197
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. Winston Churchill
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I clearly read for self buffs. Still not seeing an issue with parity or MM's in general. So what if self buffs is not as great on MM's, unless you show there is an issue or probelm with the performance of MM's overall, and NOT with temp powers which are most certainly not required in this game, then the devs should use their time more wisely.|
Originally Posted by Master Zaprobo
As stated - with self-only buffs. Any other AT can use a self-only buff and it provides what the buff is designed for, as on the label. For a MM you're out of luck. Now I'm not saying this is a catastrophe - MM's have tricks and abilities all of their own, but this is an issue they have.
I'd like it if the devs can fix the issue, but otherwise I'm not going to lose sleep over it! |
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Just to add some addition thoughts.
My view of MM's is that they are already overpowered, god-like as it is. The other ATs are at a disadvantage to what they can do. Thus things like a self buff not being as effective on MM's compared to other ATs allows for those other ATs to come closer to MM's. I would see this as a way to balance MM's. Also, unless it can be shown that MM's get absolutely 0 benefit from self buffs (as pointed out in the OP), then maybe something should be addressed. I can't see that though.
Additionally, temps like Frenzy and IO set bonuses are not required for this game. Additionally, the PPP's are not required either. I took the shield for my MM's as a placeholder for IOs only. The other powers I don't want for my MM's.
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Originally Posted by Master Zaprobo
Correct. However, the effects for every power (primary AND secondary) get boosted for any other AT with access to this power (Blasters, Controllers, Defenders, Dominators, Corruptors) while Masterminds only get our Secondary powers boosted (as, let's face it our attack powers in the primary are balanced to be dire vs. the henchmen attack powers - and rightly so).
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Actually it is consistant. Controller and Domi pets don't get their secondary effects boosted by PB either (unless you cast PB first then summon the pet, it will be PBed for the first 15 seconds of its life).
My main gripe with MMs is that the APP/PPPs were badly done and ill fitting, they should have been focused on Controls and Shields rather than Blasts and Shields.
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Or they could leave the damage as it is, and just fix the endurace costs.|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
Likewise it no longer boosts Knockback.
Honestly if they were to buff a MM's personal attacks, it would only come with a subsequent nerf to pet damage output. MM's are already a very powerful AT. There's not going to be an improvement in personal damage without rebalancing elsewhere. Then you'd get complaints from a multitude of other MM players about how now, to meet their full potential they have to micromanage pets, Buff/debuff AND maintain their personal attacks all at the same time. |
Right now, MM personal damage scale is mediocre, and yet costs more than a Blasters attacks. There is no sound logic behind this.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Well there is, you just don't like it (ie "It's a counter-balance to the fact that the vast number of attacks 'you' make cost you no End at all).
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Or they could leave the damage as it is, and just fix the endurace costs.
Right now, MM personal damage scale is mediocre, and yet costs more than a Blasters attacks. There is no sound logic behind this. |
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Controls in MM APPs/PPPs:|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
My main gripe with MMs is that the APP/PPPs were badly done and ill fitting, they should have been focused on Controls and Shields rather than Blasts and Shields.
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Leviathan - 2 holds, 1 cone immob, 1 shield
Mace - 1 hold, 1 AoE immob, 1 AoE blast with KB, 1 shield, power boost
Mu - 1 hold, 1 AoE immob, 1 melee AoE stun with KB, 1 shield
Soul - 1 hold, 1 cone immob, 1 melee AoE stun toggle, 1 shield
Chill - 1 AoE sleep, 1 shield, hibernate, dull pain
Charge - 1 hold, 1 AoE hold (EMP), 1 melee AoE stun with KB, surge of power
Heat - 1 hold, bonfire, rise of the phoenix (stun)
Field - 3 attacks with KB, 1 shield, force of nature
from my understanding, they do focus on controls/shields more than blasts/shields. the APPs have a little more blast and not all of them have a toggle shield, but they either get a self rez or a god-mode power.
i took mu on my necro/poison MM, regularly use my AoE immob and ST hold to either pre-control a mob before my minions get there, or to supplement the lich's controls.
50: Ill/Kin(A+,R,J)-1047 badges RE/Dark(A) Fire/Elec Warshade BS/Regen Necro/Poison Ice/Fiery(A+) Son/Son Bane(A) FM/DA(A) DM/Nin Grav/Icy
lvling: Inv/EM DM/Sheild Arch/MM Bane NW Elec/Earth Grav/Elec Elec/FA Rad/Ice
Paragon Elite/Rogue Elite Joined Oct 2004
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I stand corrected. |
Originally Posted by Soul_Stormer
Controls in MM APPs/PPPs:
Leviathan - 2 holds, 1 cone immob, 1 shield Mace - 1 hold, 1 AoE immob, 1 AoE blast with KB, 1 shield, power boost Mu - 1 hold, 1 AoE immob, 1 melee AoE stun with KB, 1 shield Soul - 1 hold, 1 cone immob, 1 melee AoE stun toggle, 1 shield Chill - 1 AoE sleep, 1 shield, hibernate, dull pain Charge - 1 hold, 1 AoE hold (EMP), 1 melee AoE stun with KB, surge of power Heat - 1 hold, bonfire, rise of the phoenix (stun) Field - 3 attacks with KB, 1 shield, force of nature from my understanding, they do focus on controls/shields more than blasts/shields. the APPs have a little more blast and not all of them have a toggle shield, but they either get a self rez or a god-mode power. i took mu on my necro/poison MM, regularly use my AoE immob and ST hold to either pre-control a mob before my minions get there, or to supplement the lich's controls. |
Actually I knew about the APPs ones, when they were announced they were more what I expected, in the case of the PPPs I kinda ruled out the AOE immobs because while they can indeed be useful they're never really what I'd call proper aoe "controls", if you know what I mean. I was expecting things like Dark Pit, or AOE Holds to make an appearance.
It's been an issue for a good long while now, and while I'd hoped that the dev's might be able to do something about it in future, it is becoming more and more apparent that Masterminds are not "planned" for with new powers/buffs.
Some recent examples...
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Villain Alignment Power: Frenzy
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Alignment_Powers#Frenzy
This grants +30% Recharge for 20s and +60% Damage(All) for 20s (or something special for Brute/Stalkers/Dominators). This results in damage boosts to all attacks a character makes for twenty seconds. Unless you're a Mastermind - where most of your damage comes from the henchmen.
Mace Mastery: Power Boost
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Mace_Mastery#Mastermind
Despite being a power specifically added to boost Masterminds, it has zero effect on our primary source of attacks/effects - the henchmen.
Invention Set Bonuses
While every other type of AT will benefit heavily from +Dam and +Acc set bonuses, these have no appreciable impact on Masterminds. This leaves MM's behind the curve on damage boosts, even with IO slotting.
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Now, in these cases the powers/buffs are not totally useless since MM's have a small number of personal attacks which do benefit however I feel that some AT parity should be strived for.
As such, my suggestion is that some way is included for these (and future powers) to be more beneficial for Mastermind henchmen. Unsure what the feasibility is, but some ideas in my head is having Self-only Buffs mirror to the henchmen (would allow for a team-mate buff on the MM to affect pets - would probably then need to make the pets untargetable to stop abuse/stacking), or Self-only's are modified to have an additional effect for Masterminds (in some way).
Certainly not a priority issue, but one that (I feel) does need looking at.
So, any thoughts on this case from the community at large?