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I recently tanked the ITF with a SS/Electric brute. I had one close call, but didn't faceplant. The character is soft-capped for S/L damage. The team had a good mix of defenders and controllers, so that might have made the difference. But I can run the wall in Cimerora solo with this brute, so I think you should eventually be able to make it with your Electric tank.
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Originally Posted by shaggy5
Is there something about an electric tank that just is inherently bad? I am lvl 38 and I have all of the Primaries and am fully slotted (but not with sets). I also have Tough and Weave, again both slotted (4 slots, but no sets).
I know when I am IO-ed out I will improve, but I have never had another tank perform so badly. I just did an ITF and I just couldn't stay alive. Thoughts? |
Thanks for the input and I hope so...I have 2 Fire tanks and haven't had this problem by 38!
Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
For what it's worth, I found My Elm/ElA Brute's survivability went up significantly when I learned to sap, to the point that I have gotten a few words of praise for my tanking abilities on that character. I use Power Sink early and often. Between that and Lighting Field, I can keep Minion, Lts and most Bosses' End low enough to reduce or even stop their attacks.
I'm not sure how much luck you'll have with sapping on the ITF. If you've got tough and you're well slotted, you aren't actually soft against S/L. Negative energy, on the other hand, will tear you a new one. The most common source of this on the ITF is, unfortunately, boss level foes. By the time you've sapped these guys, they'll have had a chance to seriously unload into you.
I have very mixed feelings about sapping on Ele. I'll agree that against certain foes, it's great... but in many of those cases, a bit of extra res, or some def would have done a better job. Something like Rogue vanguard? sure. Drain'em. The lower con mobs can be a serious threat for sustained output. Malta? not so much. Sure, as ele you ignore their drain, but if you don't do something about their stuns, and these can stack up FAST, you'll be dazed and confused long before they run dry.
Best advice before IOs and that alpha slot? stock up on a few lucks, and punch them before crystal bashing. You should have enough s/l protection to do ok against most of the traitors.
If you're really worried you could probably mail yourself a few more lucks.
edit: or just run with a buffer...
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
You can do the ITF at level 38, but do realize it is more endgame content than late 30s content: it gets easier to do for every AT as you level up and have more slots and powers to work with. Same thing with the Rikti Mothership Raid, really: there can be more issues with that if a lot of lowbies and not 50s are on that one. Some of that is because they're -5 and not -4, but slotting and powers do help a lot.
You're a resist tank, so if you only have CJ and Weave for defense at this point (or only Weave), they're not doing much for you with all the defense debuffs on the ITF. If you get your defense higher, you will notice a difference even on the ITF, though. IOs will help you out. I don't have an Elec Tank, but my Elec Brute has lower resists and tanks pretty well for teams: he picked up Tough and Weave, and about 30% S/L defense. Defense really is a nice layer to add on to Elec and Fire shields.
Also, team makeup does make a big difference on the ITF. It does help to have some good buffs or debuffs going to assist with all those debuffs and mobs about. I realize that most people want to solo those big spawns on their own, but do realize that is a tough thing to do for most people (not saying it can't be done, but I am saying it's not the only thing to shoot for). Heck, keep in mind your Electric tank is going to laugh his way through the Lady Grey TF with all that electric and psi damage.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I've tanked the ITF fine with my Elec/Fire tank. Even with my SS/Elec brute, and he's not even 50 yet. Did you use purple insps to get you to the softcap?
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
It's more than a little unfortunate that we can't roll ele/broadsword or ele/katana
It'd be a wonderful mix, I'd probably re-roll my ele/fire for parry.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
I had the unfortunate experience recently of tanking a 52 Rommie with my SR Scrapper because the Elec Tanker kept faceplanting. I don't think the ITF is too favourable for Elecs and is less forgiving when the team is sked way way up to 50 as they're missing a lot of slots. If I were you just post the build with basic IOs and we can see where it lacks the flexibility to best prepare for much you will have to face.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Kind of sounds like when I took my DM/SR scrapper on the ITF. I could not stay alive at all. It was like I was totally defenseless.
Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind
OMG!! Please add these costume designs now!
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Rereading his post, he's 38, he may well be using SOs, which might be part of the problem. With IOs (even the basic ones) a 50 can basically hardcap S/L res with an alpha slot, even with no bonuses.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I had the unfortunate experience recently of tanking a 52 Rommie with my SR Scrapper because the Elec Tanker kept faceplanting. I don't think the ITF is too favourable for Elecs and is less forgiving when the team is sked way way up to 50 as they're missing a lot of slots. If I were you just post the build with basic IOs and we can see where it lacks the flexibility to best prepare for much you will have to face.
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SOs aren't going to get him to that point, which is a big deal. Ele with hardcapped S/L is pretty damned good for large parts of the ITF, even with no def at all.
Negative energy is a significant, def encouraging obstacle of course.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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Even though my Fiery Aura Tank has lower resists to Negative than S/L, he ironically has had fewer issues with the negative energy of that second mission: that defense debuff really is the killer. Though upping those S/L resists via the Cardiac Boost should help. I haven't ITF'd with him enough to say anything conclusively, but he was taking considerably less damage the one time I was soloing on the wall (as I was waiting for an ITF attempt to start up).|
Originally Posted by Spiritchaser
Rereading his post, he's 38, he may well be using SOs, which might be part of the problem. With IOs (even the basic ones) a 50 can basically hardcap S/L res with an alpha slot, even with no bonuses.
SOs aren't going to get him to that point, which is a big deal. Ele with hardcapped S/L is pretty damned good for large parts of the ITF, even with no def at all. Negative energy is a significant, def encouraging obstacle of course. |
I mention Fiery Aura as I feel it is rather similar to Electric in performance (even though Electric has a lot more mobs it has easily capped resists to).
I would also agree (like I noted earlier), that his being level 38 is probably part of the issue, and that could have been compounded if some of his teammates were at the same level, and also only had SOs. You can play without IO sets, but they do make a big difference.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
You were. The Cimerorans have a significant defense debuff with their sword attacks. Assuming you have 45% defense, you start out with their odds to hit floored at 5%. As soon as you get hit once, their odds of hitting you get better. This leads to you getting hit more and having your defense further reduced before the earlier debuffs wear off. We call this a cascade failure, although I'm not sure the definition really fits.|
Originally Posted by UberRod
Kind of sounds like when I took my DM/SR scrapper on the ITF. I could not stay alive at all. It was like I was totally defenseless.
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Anyway, you'd be absolutely appalled if you were monitoring your defense numbers. When I did this on my invuln, in a 'mob scene' fight, they could get my base defense to -100% in 20-30 seconds.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Remember, Invuln only has 50% Defense Debuff Resistance. SR has 95%. So if an Invuln gets debuffed from 50% to -100%, a SR in the same situation drops from 50% to only 35% - a single small purple inspiration will put you back above the softcap. And the cascade will take a lot longer, because if that was, say, 15 debuffs at a base 20% (reduced to 10% for Invuln and 1% for SR), then even one debuff makes the Invuln, even with a 5% buffer, drop below the softcap, while the SR can take up to 5 debuffs before the enemy's chance to hit rises from the 5% floor.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
You were. The Cimerorans have a significant defense debuff with their sword attacks. Assuming you have 45% defense, you start out with their odds to hit floored at 5%. As soon as you get hit once, their odds of hitting you get better. This leads to you getting hit more and having your defense further reduced before the earlier debuffs wear off. We call this a cascade failure, although I'm not sure the definition really fits.
Anyway, you'd be absolutely appalled if you were monitoring your defense numbers. When I did this on my invuln, in a 'mob scene' fight, they could get my base defense to -100% in 20-30 seconds. |
Of course, the damage attached to those first five debuffs will put some serious hurt on a SR scrapper, but that's not cascade failure. Just normal failure.
FYI on the defense debuffs, they're not that long of duration, so if you start to see a lot stacking on you, don't be afraid to disengage and run back about 40 feet. You're not losing aggro, but you're losing a lot of those debuffs on you in the process. This trick is harder to do if you're lagging on that one valley map, but you should be able to hop over a mob to disengage like this quite easily.
The only times my Shield Tank dropped on the ITF was when I wasn't paying attention and I let the debuffs stack too much (and this was only when I was a little away from my team support as well).
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Quote:
This runs counter to my experience with my electric/fire|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Even though my Fiery Aura Tank has lower resists to Negative than S/L, he ironically has had fewer issues with the negative energy of that second mission: that defense debuff really is the killer. Though upping those S/L resists via the Cardiac Boost should help. I haven't ITF'd with him enough to say anything conclusively, but he was taking considerably less damage the one time I was soloing on the wall (as I was waiting for an ITF attempt to start up).
I mention Fiery Aura as I feel it is rather similar to Electric in performance (even though Electric has a lot more mobs it has easily capped resists to). I would also agree (like I noted earlier), that his being level 38 is probably part of the issue, and that could have been compounded if some of his teammates were at the same level, and also only had SOs. You can play without IO sets, but they do make a big difference. |
The def debuffs can put me to the floor, but 90% SL resists will still cut it against these guys.
The spawns of nictus in the second mission (and that one spawn at the end of the first) on the other hand can be quite a handfull, it's important to clear the debuffs I have and pound back a luck or two before I dive in to those. If I get flat footed, it's time for archmage.
I would conjecture that because of the performance of resistance (or def for that matter) near the cap, electric and fire could both be more resistant to SL than to neg, and by a crudely similar ammount, but that the electric would be taking so much less SL (potentially half or less depending on builds) that the fire would have SL and debuff issues, while the ele would have more problems with the negative energy
Just a guess though.
I do typically monitor my defence, but I usually give it up as a lost cause in a dogpile of swords.
What I must NOT do, is hit the nictus and the traitors at the same time if I can at all avoid it.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
Note that you don't have to build for resistance in order to handle the ITF. A simple orange insp will just about get you to the resistance hardcap.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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Or do everything you can to delay/weaken their attacks. Ice slows, KD patch and sleep AoE helps, AoE with KU/KB/KD or other control effects helps, planting some to-hit debuffs from dark abilities will also help to patch up some of the def losses.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
FYI on the defense debuffs, they're not that long of duration, so if you start to see a lot stacking on you, don't be afraid to disengage and run back about 40 feet.
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On that note, what's your secondary?
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Originally Posted by UberRod
Kind of sounds like when I took my DM/SR scrapper on the ITF. I could not stay alive at all. It was like I was totally defenseless.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
You were. The Cimerorans have a significant defense debuff with their sword attacks. Assuming you have 45% defense, you start out with their odds to hit floored at 5%. As soon as you get hit once, their odds of hitting you get better. This leads to you getting hit more and having your defense further reduced before the earlier debuffs wear off. We call this a cascade failure, although I'm not sure the definition really fits.
Anyway, you'd be absolutely appalled if you were monitoring your defense numbers. When I did this on my invuln, in a 'mob scene' fight, they could get my base defense to -100% in 20-30 seconds. |
Sounds more like the RNG just hated him that day. Sure, a softcapped SR will only be getting hit by 1 out of 20 attacks, but when you're fighting upwards of 40 enemies at once and have no resistance to speak of, those 2 attacks that will be landing are going to hurt.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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If you overslot Charged armor by even a single slot, it will get you there.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
Note that you don't have to build for resistance in order to handle the ITF. A simple orange insp will just about get you to the resistance hardcap.
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The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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If you were asking me (the OP), I am elec/DB
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Originally Posted by Signpost
On that note, what's your secondary? |
Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
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I'd doubt the difference between 3SOs or 3IOs is a huge factor.
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Originally Posted by Spiritchaser
Rereading his post, he's 38, he may well be using SOs, which might be part of the problem. With IOs (even the basic ones) a 50 can basically hardcap S/L res with an alpha slot, even with no bonuses.
SOs aren't going to get him to that point, which is a big deal. Ele with hardcapped S/L is pretty damned good for large parts of the ITF, even with no def at all. Negative energy is a significant, def encouraging obstacle of course. |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Right. A properly built SR will shrug off a heck of a lot of debuffing.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
SR scrappers hit 95% Defense Debuff Resistance without even really trying to. I doubt he was getting debuffed enough to drop his defenses significantly.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
FYI on the defense debuffs, they're not that long of duration
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My SR Scrapper has never had any difficulties with the Romans from their debuffing, even in huge crowds.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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That depends on the build.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I'd doubt the difference between 3SOs or 3IOs is a huge factor.
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For the basic case, with 3 res IOs in tough and charged armor, the difference is between
78% for SOs, which is 22% transmitted
79.2% for IOs which is 20.8% transmitted.
That's about the weakest case you could make for IOs, and you're already reducing incoming physical damage by 6%, I'd say this is non-tivial, but it might be ignored by many players.
If you overslot, and I personally believe that Ele should at least consider overslotting, given what you have to gain, then the difference is more dramatic
With four enhancements it becomes
79.5% with SOs or 20.5% transmitted
81.2% with IOs or 18.8% tranmitted
That's 8% less. That's going to catch at least some general attention.
81 vs 83.1 and 82.5 vs. 85 are next. I don't think too many players are going to 5 or 6 slot res SOs, but in my personal opinion they should at least think about what else they're losing to get those slots.
With 5 slots, IOs get you an 11% reduction in damage over SOs. With 6, it's a 14% reduction when you go from SOs up to max level IOs.
Just for context, a 6 slotted IO build takes a [edit] 32% reduction in physical damage over a 3 slotted SO build. The difference gets even more extreem with an alpha slot or IO bonuses and at this point the idea of overslotting has to be very compelling indeed... but that's not my point
My point was that a 6% or 8% reduction is actually a reasonably big deal... or at least that was my point before I made my mandatory statement about overslotting ele.
Had to work that in you know.
Edit: edited to remove the other half of one in math I should have checked
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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However, they repeatedly took me to -100% defense on a number of occasions, but never PAST that number. My impression is that was a limit and they had the capability to take me lower. That suggests they could have put a bit more hurt on the SR.
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Originally Posted by AnElfCalledMack
Remember, Invuln only has 50% Defense Debuff Resistance. SR has 95%. So if an Invuln gets debuffed from 50% to -100%, a SR in the same situation drops from 50% to only 35% - a single small purple inspiration will put you back above the softcap. And the cascade will take a lot longer, because if that was, say, 15 debuffs at a base 20% (reduced to 10% for Invuln and 1% for SR), then even one debuff makes the Invuln, even with a 5% buffer, drop below the softcap, while the SR can take up to 5 debuffs before the enemy's chance to hit rises from the 5% floor.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Is there something about an electric tank that just is inherently bad? I am lvl 38 and I have all of the Primaries and am fully slotted (but not with sets). I also have Tough and Weave, again both slotted (4 slots, but no sets).
I know when I am IO-ed out I will improve, but I have never had another tank perform so badly. I just did an ITF and I just couldn't stay alive.
Thoughts?
Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers