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Originally Posted by Vexington
Listen, the entire thing is this; you not liking Caves isn't a good enough reason not to play it. I don't like Atlas. Can we blacklist that, too?
Caves is a large map, large enough for 8v8s. It's awkward and can be hectic, but it works that way for both teams. There's no bug-reason, size-reason, or any reason I've heard to ban it. The only thing that exists is a precedent from the last FPvPL where it wasn't playable, like Office and Cage, and some people who ***** about it because they're not used to playing it. It just doesn't meet conditions requiring a ban. Also; we're the Cave Masters, without gimmicks, so you best respect, hoe. If we're removing Caves, I want Atlas and Steel to go. Steel because it's over-used and Atlas because it's a stupid map and I don't like it. That's reason enough, right? Byyyyyyyyyyyye! |
To be fair Caves has almost never been used in any of the ladders either.
Wasn't used on Test as far as I remember (was a reset, along with office and monkey cage).
It has several problems:
i)The passages mean that joining up with your team generally takes coordination in excess of the regular maps. This isn't actually a negative, to be fair.
ii)Unlike lab, where you can at least circle around some hallways and hop upstairs and so on, caves really doesn't have any "hiding spots". What happens is that either teams congregate in one of the larger rooms and just spam damage or a teammate gets separated from the team, dies, then tries to rejoin the team and likely dies again, setting up potentially lopsided scores.
iii)Makes some ATs (Bubblers come to mind) much better than they would be normally.
Ultimately it's up to the captains but it's not really a case of "I like this map/I don't like this map". The maps generally played have two factors in their favour:
i)Vertical space (limited in Tech Lab and Cargo to be sure)
ii)Evasion niches (duck around buildings, trees, over trees, pools, etc)
We're aware people can choose Caves as a map, if it happens it happens.
It doesn't really add much to the matches that Tech Lab doesn't already give, except longer "tagging up" and so on.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
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Originally Posted by SmokeSignal
I thought it was fun. Just sayin.
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I thought the chaos was fun, it's mostly about sticking together and knowing where your target caller is. The map takes getting used to, but I think once you know it better, evasion becomes simple because it's so easy to break LOS.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
I like running caves just about as much as I like running Cargo, Tech, or even Graveyard with an 8 v 8 jump. Yes I really hate graveyard.
The maps are large enough to facilitate that many people, but just barely.
Last night when we drew caves, no one was really thrilled about it on our side either, but it was a playable map. And because it was the third random round, I don't think we could have reset for just that reason (I might have been wrong?)
To me Caves + Bubbler is to Graveyard + TA or Tech + Mastermind team or Cargo + Whatever works in Cargo. The maps let certain powersets really leverage the terrain, but if you get stuck with a random map draw, you just have to tough it out.
caves were always excluded because the spawn points were the two largest rooms and it pretty much ends up one spawn point or the other..problem was once you get to targets it was too easy to accidently spawn camp. Even in cargo map there is not a real point where the entire other side is standing where you spawn.
Caves is a map I missed playing. It's chaotic, which is kind of the idea. The only drawback to Caves I can really see is that it's exploitable in a way, since FFs can be so overpowered, whether they're in a tunnel or not. Still, both teams have access to this "advantage" and like Lib said, other maps offer the same sort of obvious advantage if you bring a certain role or line-up.
It wasn't really a popularity contest that Caves won, it was just the fact that fundamentally, there's no reason not to play it. It would be banned soley on the premise of... We don't like it, which doesn't make sense.
Industrial is another map that winning requires teams staying together. It's a different set of obstacles and an enormous map, but the same idea.
I'd suggest practicing the map, because as it's already happened, it's going to at least come up with random draws if not by a team trying to exploit it.
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Originally Posted by B_Witched
caves were always excluded because the spawn points were the two largest rooms and it pretty much ends up one spawn point or the other..problem was once you get to targets it was too easy to accidently spawn camp. Even in cargo map there is not a real point where the entire other side is standing where you spawn.
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This is a concern but spawn camping could be a problem in lots of maps if the "flow of battle" leads to one spawn vs the other.
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How's it a concern? There's a 10-second buff period upon respawning. If you're camped, you're just an idiot.
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Originally Posted by RoboBug
This is a concern but spawn camping could be a problem in lots of maps if the "flow of battle" leads to one spawn vs the other.
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More importantly, the Hot Heals' birthday thread!!!
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6685529/3-hot-and-vex-3
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The only time I've successfully been spawn camped, is if another player is keeping you perma TK target. It can still sort of be avoided, but as I'd re-spawn. I'd toggle up with a few seconds to move around, as I'd go to leave the room I'd make it about half way before phase would drop and I'd fall right into TK.|
Originally Posted by Vexington
How's it a concern? There's a 10-second buff period upon respawning. If you're camped, you're just an idiot.
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But yeah, you can sorta be camped in the sense as soon as you spawn you can be TK'ed.
I do realize you could just turn on SS and try to run out, but if the TK'er has half a brain they can follow you pretty easy. The way I'd compare it (which still might make it seem silly) is if you were on skyway, and a team was standing around the others spawn point, just alternating TK's on a target as soon as they respawn. It *seems* like camping, but that issue is more with TK than anything else.
I'm didn't mean spawn camping in the sense of the follow bug - I meant as caves traditionally play out you end up at either end just because of the size of the rooms - what ever team can establish a lead and get to the other teams room has the advantage. Yah you can sc in any map but in that caves situation is weighted.
If it's your spawn point you, go down, you respawn in the middle of the other team. I don't mean they camp you directly - they are just sitting atop your spawn point - for them any one who goes down is respawned in an agro free zone and can run right back to aid. You can say "well just run to their spawn point" but once a lead is established there is no reason for the other team to leave. So the only choice is to continue the fight where you spawn.
I'm not against caves at all btw it was fun..just saying the argument against it traditionally has been it lead to camping.
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Originally Posted by MrLiberty
It *seems* like camping, but that issue is more with TK than anything else.
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That's the point, because while TK can be toggled on you, it doesn't reduce the phase duration. TK sucks, but you don't have to have just respawned for it be an issue.
Its frustrating at times and ill take a vote on it but i think with practice it could be fun.
Pretty sure this is like any other league or ladder, if both Captains agree to a change / reset there is no rule against it. I would say make sure you screenshot the broadcast of the other captain agreeing to the reset in case some one tries to play the deuchebag card after the fact.
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Originally Posted by MrLiberty
Last night when we drew caves, no one was really thrilled about it on our side either, but it was a playable map. And because it was the third random round, I don't think we could have reset for just that reason (I might have been wrong?)
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I don't remember what me or Reaver voted. Put it up for a revote if you feel strongly about it. There are what 5 teams and 2 of the teams are using it strategically. Pretty sure though our vote would probably be to ban them. Actually though we have done decently on the few cave matches we did during practice because PF is full of win and figured out pretty much how to make them not as fail as they could be.
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Originally Posted by Artic_Chill_44
First off lol, second how did caves get voted in? I know i wasnt able to show up for that meeting and dat the person i sent in my place voted for it, but then how come when we zoned into the caves map at the beginning of that 5th match i asked is it a reset and dumb said no, and a few of their players gave suggestions saying it should be, and then later on after the matches, dex seemed to have second thoughts on caves as well. So what im asking is how/who all voted for it to be playable? And jus like Dex said earlier we should have a re-vote on it and c if we want to restrict it. I mean yea maybe some teams will try and setup a team jus for caves but then again couldnt that same lineup work for lab and cargo if not better?
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I think it would be totally crazy for caves to be banned, there is no good reason for it. It`s just people not wanting to getting wrecked in there!
Shenanigans
LotD - JaL - POWT/SMD - SoCo - AJs
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HAI MAGE!!!!!!!!! Yea it would be really cool if they released a "Map Pack" for this game. I mean this game has had the same pvp maps for the past 5 years or so. Time for some new maps.
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Originally Posted by Mirage_Mage
I think it would be totally crazy for caves to be banned, there is no good reason for it. It`s just people not wanting to getting wrecked in there!
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Yeah. The only map added since the arena was introduced is the buggy and unplayable Monkey Cage. Wow, what an addition. We're so excited.|
Originally Posted by __Divine__
HAI MAGE!!!!!!!!! Yea it would be really cool if they released a "Map Pack" for this game. I mean this game has had the same pvp maps for the past 5 years or so. Time for some new maps.
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You could cut a chunk of geometry out of almost any zone and just lazily paste it in. The current maps, I don't have a problem with, save Cage, but it's gotten stale over years and years of the same ****.
I take it PVP is still getting zero support from the devs. Also what happen to Mod 8 and Castle?
Hi there! Yeah we def need new maps. Yup right on point two also.I think mod 8 got a better job elsewere and im not sure what happened with castle tbh whether he got sacked or resigned, heard he hadnt a job lined up which would make me think he didnt resign but idk.
Shenanigans
LotD - JaL - POWT/SMD - SoCo - AJs
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So the only guy that actually worked with the pvp community left (Mod 8). Yea.... Also don't see why they they don't make new maps, it's not like it's hard tbh. But i kinda see where they are coming from...the pvp community is so small...it would almost be a waste of resources making new maps and what not. But it still should be done...
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Originally Posted by Mirage_Mage
Hi there! Yeah we def need new maps. Yup right on point two also.I think mod 8 got a better job elsewere and im not sure what happened with castle tbh whether he got sacked or resigned, heard he hadnt a job lined up which would make me think he didnt resigned but idk.
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Ocho is Community Manager for Sony now. Castle I haven't heard about why he left just that he did. But Matador Cinco is cool as **** so we just gotta get him up to where Ocho was at so we can get some changes or something.
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Originally Posted by Mirage_Mage
Hi there! Yeah we def need new maps. Yup right on point two also.I think mod 8 got a better job elsewere and im not sure what happened with castle tbh whether he got sacked or resigned, heard he hadnt a job lined up which would make me think he didnt resigned but idk.
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with one practice we are tied for second~!! whoohooooooo
At least Vex makes the effort to say something new and creative.
MMMMMM vs AJ
Match 1 (Caves) AJ wins 17-5
Match 2 (Striga) AJ wins 10-2
Match 3 (Perez) AJ wins 11-1
GGs
@Ra Ra
dUmb vs L&T
rd dumb wins by forfeit
rd 2 dumb wins 11-0
rd 3 dumb wins 11-1
I thought it was fun. Just sayin.
"His Imperial Majesty's Minister of Restraints and Leather" -LHF
Two naughty acronym teams / Ascension / Convenient / Artic and the Chillz / Fap / Other teams I can't remember (sorry.. mind is goin')