Population Numbers...
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Do you not realize we're talking about in a reality where this takes place in space and they have stuff that makes it so that a battleship and a destroyer can literally work on the same engines and achieve the same speeds. The only difference they have in terms of systems and such is the size/advanceness of a single part? |
Let's make it simple for you: a large spaceship is the same as 50 small spaceships. All else being equal -- using the exact same components, just more of them stuffed into one place instead of distributed among many places -- then what you have is a large spaceship which is more complex than all the smaller ships combined. Others have explained this to you again and again, but the reason is that doing things like ramping up from having 20 toilets to having 2,000 toilets means that you have to have fr more complex subsystems in order to deal with everything about those toilets. Even if it's the exact same wiring there is more wiring for the lights and fans, which means more complicated circuit breaker boxes, more complicated junction boxes, more powerful (and therefore more complicated) generator systems. Even if they are the exact same generators used in the smaller ships, you still need more things to control them. That increases complexity.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
I have no idea about your question Ironik, because I don't care about cares all that much so to me those numbers and names mean nothing as I don't know anything about them other than they are cars more or less.
So to you, if I change engines then the car is more complex and if I remove the radio it's less...ok. To me removing a windshield doesn't make the car less complex, but if to you it does, ok. |
I repeat again, how you you make a Bucket that is big enough to take care of business?? It's much more complex than a little bucket.
You have to define the terms of your problem first, then not change them.
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
I have no idea about your question Ironik, because I don't care about cares all that much so to me those numbers and names mean nothing as I don't know anything about them other than they are cars more or less.
So to you, if I change engines then the car is more complex and if I remove the radio it's less...ok. To me removing a windshield doesn't make the car less complex, but if to you it does, ok. |
And I didn't say remove the windshield on the Jeep, I said replace the windshield. A folding windshield has hinges and locks and pins. A regular windshield doesn't. Ergo, more complex. At this point I'd say you're trolling, because I find it impossible to believe that someone could be this ignorant about... well, everything... and still remember to breathe.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
Fine. Same engine. Stupid, but okay.
Let's make it simple for you: a large spaceship is the same as 50 small spaceships. All else being equal -- using the exact same components, just more of them stuffed into one place instead of distributed among many places -- then what you have is a large spaceship which is more complex than all the smaller ships combined. Others have explained this to you again and again, but the reason is that doing things like ramping up from having 20 toilets to having 2,000 toilets means that you have to have fr more complex subsystems in order to deal with everything about those toilets. Even if it's the exact same wiring there is more wiring for the lights and fans, which means more complicated circuit breaker boxes, more complicated junction boxes, more powerful (and therefore more complicated) generator systems. Even if they are the exact same generators used in the smaller ships, you still need more things to control them. That increases complexity. |
But in this instance that is not the case because the city components are separate as they would be so not part of the ship so the toilet example doesn't work... and there is not 100 engines for everyone, because there is no need in this situation. there is 1 engine for 1 engine.
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The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
But in this instance that is not the case because the city components are separate as they would be so not part of the ship so the toilet example doesn't work... and there is not 100 engines for everyone, because there is no need in this situation. there is 1 engine for 1 engine.
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And it's still moot, as I've explained earlier. They can't afford to build giant ships, and they wouldn't if they could because it'd increase the chances of one thing going wrong and wiping out a huge chunk of their population.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
Then why did you bring up cars? And are you incapable of looking this stuff up? Go look at a 1965 Mustang and compare its features to a 2010 Mustang. There's so much more stuff in a modern car that it's vastly more complex.
And I didn't say remove the windshield on the Jeep, I said replace the windshield. A folding windshield has hinges and locks and pins. A regular windshield doesn't. Ergo, more complex. At this point I'd say you're trolling, because I find it impossible to believe that someone could be this ignorant about... well, everything... and still remember to breathe. |
i said that in what you are saying that removing a windshield makes a car less complex.
I said nothing about your folding windshield. The folding windshield is a more complex windshield than a non-folding one, but as I said, to me that does not make a car more complex, and according to some arguments by other people, it shouldn't for them either.
on a sidenote, why would i look up irrelevant information? I will tell you one thing though, without looking any information up at all, galadiman and you are contradicting each other if you think one of those are more complex than the other...or your contradicting yourself if you agree with everything each other have said.
#1 You cannot have a "city ship" with each person dealing with their own water/sewage/electrical/etc. needs. Because internal pollution (and heat generation) and a huge host of other issues, have to be dealt with on a macro basis.
#2 You cannot glue 50,000 ships together and expect them to cooperate - reference "Politics".
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
#1 You cannot have a "city ship" with each person dealing with their own water/sewage/electrical/etc. needs. Because internal pollution (and heat generation) and a huge host of other issues, have to be dealt with on a macro basis.
#2 You cannot glue 50,000 ships together and expect them to cooperate - reference "Politics". |
There are already politics in place...
I said nothing about your folding windshield. The folding windshield is a more complex windshield than a non-folding one, but as I said, to me that does not make a car more complex, and according to some arguments by other people, it shouldn't for them either.
on a sidenote, why would i look up irrelevant information? I will tell you one thing though, without looking any information up at all, gladiman and you are contradicting each other if you think one of those are more complex than the other...or your contradicting yourself if you agree with everything each other have said. |
(edit: whereas bringing my iPod into a car would NOT make the car more complex.)
#2 Ironik and I are in agreement. We are not contradicting each other at all. Since you didn't get my argument, I'll be explicit: A folding windshield has more movng parts than a fixed one, and is therefore, more complex.
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
I don't understand how he thinks adding a more complex component doesn't mean that the whole is now more complex.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
Noone said anything like that...
There are already politics in place... |
You cannot glue 50,00 ships together and have them cooperate.
Because the captain of each ship wants to Do His Own Thing.
You would have to convince them all to cooperate.
Which is much more difficult than having One leader deciding and doing things.
Now before you use this as evidence that 50k ships is more complex than one...
The 50k ships each have their own master, but in a flotilla in which all the ships have the same goal, they're all just moving from A to B. They each take care of their own little bubble. Which is much easier than one person taking care of all their bubbles.
Here's a corollary that sums up the idea.
Did you ever go to the movies with one other person?
Did you ever go with 10 other people?
Were these 2 activities different in any way?
For example, in the larger group, was it harder to decide which movie to see?
Was it harder to decide who would sit where? Who would get the food? Who would get the tickets??
Is any of this getting through?
May I ask what you do in real life that none of this is making sense?
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
I guess I have to be totally explicit.
You cannot glue 50,00 ships together and have them cooperate. Because the captain of each ship wants to Do His Own Thing. You would have to convince them all to cooperate. Which is much more difficult than having One leader deciding and doing things. Now before you use this as evidence that 50k ships is more complex than one... The 50k ships each have their own master, but in a flotilla in which all the ships have the same goal, they're all just moving from A to B. They each take care of their own little bubble. Which is much easier than one person taking care of all their bubbles. Here's a corollary that sums up the idea. Did you ever go to the movies with one other person? Did you ever go with 10 other people? Were these 2 activities different in any way? For example, in the larger group, was it harder to decide which movie to see? Was it harder to decide who would sit where? Who would get the food? Who would get the tickets?? Is any of this getting through? May I ask what you do in real life that none of this is making sense? |
But again...they're not going to abandon those 50k ships for a few giant ships, as those ships house the entirety of their species.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
A windshield is an intrinsic part of the functioning of an automobile.
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I'm sorry, it is.
Can we perform an experiment... Can I bust the windshield of your car and see if the car still works? According to you, it shouldn't.
Right - and I suspect that he fact that each has his/her own ship likely makes them more pliable to follow the whole, because the rules on each ship are their own, so they own their own 'fiefdom'. Tehy can each moce at their own speed (within limits), But I suspect there would be hell to pay if they were forced to go into one single ship under one overarching command.
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
Wow... that is an incredibly stupid statement.
I'm sorry, it is. Can we perform an experiment... Can I bust the windshield of your car and see if the car still works? According to you, it shouldn't. |
How about your face?
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
Wow... that is an incredibly stupid statement.
I'm sorry, it is. Can we perform an experiment... Can I bust the windshield of your car and see if the car still works? According to you, it shouldn't. |
And rather than getting sidetracked by minutia like that, how about actually answering the direct questions posed to you?
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
Yup, seeing the pattern here.
Try to stay on topic, Durakken.
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
I've been being generous.
I've been using the word car, because you really don't want to argue something is an intrinsic part of the functioning of an automobile. And even that is being lenient as well because a modern car has tons more things in it's designs...
You are arguing that something is intrinsic to the functioning of something which makes it matter in the complexity of that something. If that is the case, anything that does not fit that definition does not make something any more or less complex...
This means a windshield, regardless of its' complexity, has nothing to do with a car's complexity.
Now we could sit here and argue for so much longer, but I'm going to call it quits, because it's apparent that you guys have no intention of reaching an actual consensus and have no clue what you yourselves think, because you seem to be coming up with unspoken implied stuff even when asked directly what you mean... For example, apparently safety is part of the functioning of an automobile in your mind...how you got to that conclusion is beyond me, but there is no reason to continue with that type of stuff going on.
@Quasadu
"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick
I've been being generous.
I've been using the word car, because you really don't want to argue something is an intrinsic part of the functioning of an automobile. And even that is being lenient as well because a modern car has tons more things in it's designs... You are arguing that something is intrinsic to the functioning of something which makes it matter in the complexity of that something. If that is the case, anything that does not fit that definition does not make something any more or less complex... This means a windshield, regardless of its' complexity, has nothing to do with a car's complexity. Now we could sit here and argue for so much longer, but I'm going to call it quits, because it's apparent that you guys have no intention of reaching an actual consensus and have no clue what you yourselves think, because you seem to be coming up with unspoken implied stuff even when asked directly what you mean... For example, apparently safety is part of the functioning of an automobile in your mind...how you got to that conclusion is beyond me, but there is no reason to continue with that type of stuff going on. |
Something has suddenly occurred to me...
Your arguments remind me of my cousin who has Down's Syndrome. He can function in regular life and can even use the computer to send email, but his understanding of the world is similar to Rain Man's: "How much is a candy bar?" "About a hundred dollars." "How much is a compact car?" "About a hundred dollars." I'm curious, Durakken, and I'm just going to ask this straight out, do you also have Down's Syndrome or a similar affliction? I'm not judging you if you do have DS, I'm just looking for an explanation as to why you post things like this.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
Do you not realize we're talking about in a reality where this takes place in space and they have stuff that makes it so that a battleship and a destroyer can literally work on the same engines and achieve the same speeds. The only difference they have in terms of systems and such is the size/advanceness of a single part?
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Goodbye, I guess.
@Lord_Nightblade in Champions/Star Trek Online
nightblade7295@gmail.com if you want to stay in touch
So the complexity of a device is in no way related to the complexity of its component parts. Got it. *takes notes*
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The opposite is actually true: you seem utterly incapable of understanding the simplest terms and explanations. You apparently think that objects are comprised of such things as "inside" and "outside" and little else. In that simplistic, childlike view of the universe, then yes, your assertion that "big" things are no more complex than "small" things is true. The fact that you used rope as an example of this underscores that you do, indeed, view the world as a bunch of Lego bricks and nothing more. So in your simplistic, toy box world, where cars have only insides and outsides and nothing else, then sure, everything is equal.
Something has suddenly occurred to me... Your arguments remind me of my cousin who has Down's Syndrome. He can function in regular life and can even use the computer to send email, but his understanding of the world is similar to Rain Man's: "How much is a candy bar?" "About a hundred dollars." "How much is a compact car?" "About a hundred dollars." I'm curious, Durakken, and I'm just going to ask this straight out, do you also have Down's Syndrome or a similar affliction? I'm not judging you if you do have DS, I'm just looking for an explanation as to why you post things like this. |
My arguments are all based around very specific details and understandings that some people seem to be ignoring that I pointed out long before them. Indicating that THEY have a problem with reading, and not that I have a problem with understanding. The entire last 2 pages have been me trying to figure out what you understand to be complex. The 2 statements made to this end are incredibly laughable. Arcanaville implied it was Volume and Galadiman said it was based on the number of intrinsic parts in a functioning system. Obviously, this ends the conversation with Aracanaville because the biggest thing to her is the most complex as it has the most volume. And Galadiman's statement is laughable because I view a modern car as incredibly complex, but I would say that a car, using galadiman's definition is pretty simple.
Understanding what you guys mean as complex is what I have been trying to figure out for the last few ages and this was my stated intention and yet you guys have not made even one step forward in figuring this out. Instead you are arguing that "this example is impossible" or "the process of making these materials that way is complex" and this indicates to me that you either lack the ability to understand/comprehend what is being said/asked or you are willfully not answering the simple question of what do you mean when you say complex...
This is important because if I mean something completely different with the word complex then unless we're lucky we're not going to agree no matter what. So by figuring out what you or I mean by complex we can figure out whether or not we are right about what we are saying, even if we disagree about what the words mean. You guys on the other hand seem to just want me to say your right rather than you actually BEING right and I simply refuse because I can't agree with you in any way when I don't have a clue as to what you mean and what you say is contradictory to other things you are saying.
Trust me, the Bucket is not moot.
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque