My controller feels useless...why?

I have a MIND/FF/primal troller who just feels useless, even with his Acc/def alpha slot unlocked. he doesnt have any pets and only 3 damaging attack powers.

a lot of the powers in his secondary other than the 3 bubbles seem weak and situational or useless. every other version of confuse that anyone else has feels like it is better than mine. maybe I am crazy...as i have seen one guy on here with a mind/ff/earth do some crazy things on you tube. if you have a mind troller, how do you slot his powers right? how do you use him? what IO sets help out the most? can someone give good mind/ or /ff troller advice?

Are you level 50? Would you mind posting a mock up of your build?

You should have 4 damage powers from your primary plus damage from your APP powers. Mesmerize, Levitate and Dominate are all single target damage/control powers, and Terrorize is a AoE damage/control power. Then your APP set should have one (or two for Earth) single target damage power and one (or two for Ice) AoE damage power. With the FF secondary, it should be easy to fit in all of the Mind Primary.

Additionally, you are a Controller with, depending on your view, the second best or best AoE control set in the game. You have four solid AoE control powers and should be controlling groups to keep your team from taking much damage before you worry about doing damage.

(and by the way, I have a Mind/FF in the mid 40's. Never felt useless.)

Yeah the two sets are so heavy in mitigation it seems odd that you feel useless.

Depends on what you think "useful" should entail. Nah, you shouldn't really be seeing alot of orange numbers floating overhead. And your impact isn't really going to be obvious unless you know what you're looking for. Try this. Find a mediocre team. Mash those number keys like this :
http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...+computer&aq=0
Make a note of how survivable your team is. Especially take a look at the blasters and see how often they're getting tagged. Now hit autofollow on the tank and stop hitting any more buttons. See how your team does without your help. My guess is the scrappers and tanks should be all right, and the really solid players who have end game builds should be feeling about the same. But there should be one or two guys playing fenders and blasters who will be wondering "Man, when is the mind troller gonna get back from the bathroom?"
Mind control/mind domination doesn't get a lot of thank-you's from the team, and you won't likely make or break the team when fighting the main mobs. But it's got it's place. If it's not a place you like, I suggest one of two things. One: don't reroll into a mind dominator, because it's even worse, because you don't even get thank you's for your secondary now. Two: Go run a Dr. Kahn, STF, LRSF, etc. etc. etc. Any task force with 2 AV's at once. Run it with a mediocre team that you're not sure can win. During one of the AV fights, such as the patron fight, or the heroes at the end of LRSF, let the team wipe out trying to steam roll it a couple times, then quietly raise your hand and say "I have an idea." Use your specialty to control the fight (there are several tricks mind control can use, find em for yourself), and watch the team accomplish something no other AT would have let them do. Now, after you've seen what mind control's niche is, you might want to delete your mind troller and reroll a mind dom to get more of that. Lol.
If you don't want a toon that isn't the most obvious heavy hitter of the team, I suggest you don't ever roll a dark/thermal corruptor. But if you want to help your toon find it's niche, here's a few ways I use my mind dom:
1: Alpha. Mass hypnosis and mass confusion are great at the beginning of a mob to keep the alpha from overwhelming your melee toons. With these two powers used properly, you can make a dark scrapper feel like a willpower tank.
2: "Tricks." Using sleep in multiple-AV fights. Confusing tough enemies. Single handedly holding down the door at the end of LRSF to keep the mobs off your team. Etc, etc. Mind control utilizes an attack type most AT's don't have, and as far as I know, nothing has much of a resistance to, sleep. Sleep is underestimated, and if used right, can make an impossible fight into a laughably easy one. Except.... here's a thought. You aren't fighting robots/nemesis are you? If you have a thing for smashing up automatons, you'll quickly learn to hate your mind control toon. Nemesis laugh in the face of mind control. Laugh as they blast you into hamburger.
3: Avoiding the "I give up point". Team simply can't DPS/tank the patrons and can't seem to pull em? This looks like a job for... Brain Dump!!!!
*Crickets*
What, you never heard of the the Amazing Brain Dump?

#3 comes into play alot during Triumph PUGs at 4:00 A.M. Got a team that's been recruiting for a half hour and needs one more? This is probably where you want to bring your mind control toon, since the team's probably grabbing what it can get, and has a high risk for suck factor. Mind control makes the potential for failing at the very end less likely. On the other hand, the idiot factor on many of these teams means they might not be capable of cooperating with you to do what you need to do to pull off one of mind control's "tricks." I've run into this before. Unnamed Idiot: "Sleep Rommie you idiot!! You suck, you don't know how to use your mind dom, purples and permadom and you can attack through sleep!!!" Elimist: "Sigh, I told you to wait until I convinced ROmmie to kill his healer, you noob." /quit

Another note: Mind control, in my opinion, is somewhat wasted on the controller AT. As a dominator, I think it works much better. With a dominator, mind control's (in my opinion) best selling point is wasted. That selling point is the ability to make multiple AV/EB fights a snap. And the thing that makes that possible is domination/long control duration/extreme recharge.

These are my opinions, and I'm sure they're debatable, and will be debated. I've seen mind controllers/mind dom's do very well against mobs. In the end, I think that's the player, more than the AT. No offense meant by that. I do better with mind control in the niche I mentioned, than I do against the mobs.

I've never played a mind/forcefield, but I have played both sets quite a bit. With my fire/ff and plant/ff, I slotted for softcapped lethal/smashing and ranged/AoE respectively. With mind, I would shot for a moderate amount of ranged and AoE defense with a healthy dose of recharge.

When playing mind I find it better to play aggressively, often moving ahead of the tank. Taking advantage of the aggro free controls in Mass Hypnosis and Mass Confusion will let you mez most enemies before they can fire a shot at anyone. The defense and mez protection from FF should protect you from the few ranged shots that get through. When you stand off against mobs that are resistant to mezzes, fall back and pick of trouble mobs i.e. Surgeons during the ITF.

Also, don't discount your contribution because you don't make big orange numbers. Watch your teammates health bars and how often they dip. With two layers of mitigation, I doubt they're moving much at all.

Was it Whisper Witch's/Magiccj's stuff? Yeah He/She did some awesome things with the build. Those shield scrappers can make all controllers feel marginalized if your on a fast moving team. Couple that with you being a mostly single target damage specialist.

Not to say it's not great but whats missing is something to set up a reliable AOE containment power that doesn't break so you can solo quickly with something like say fireball. TK can work but you'll need a wall. Also since there is no immobilize you can't get anything with purple triangles into containment without high levels of recharge and you will need temp pets/powers.

That reason alone has me putting off mind until controllers get traps as a secondary.

Also no '-to hit' in the fear is meh

On that note you can do some pretty interesting tricks with Mind/FF and keeping a team safe is easy. Just soloing AV's or defeating missions with difficulty setting at 0x8 solo, quickly, and with out temps/inspirations, is not one of them.

I will try the stuff in magic's youtube video's and guides. I may have to look at slotting or possibly droping a few powers and picking up a few. I have never tried repulsion field or telekinesis and most people i play with HATE force bubble with a passion, even the squishies. I also have all the leadership powers hoping that a walking buffer with strong bubbles would be a great addition to a team. My thing was I did an ITF the other night on virtue and tried every tactic i could think of and most people just got peeved at me.

I would even sleep or confuse whole groups before they got to them...nadda.
Tried a STF later and even though we won, I got the same type of feeling. I even had the damn flyer almost perma caged...thats a bad idea?

you have to admit..i can count 2 weak attack powers in FF and 4 very situational powers between the 2 sets. what should I use to fill in the slots or how should i use the field, bubble, cage, and tele-k powers?

You're right. There are more than a few situational powers that you won't need alot.

Repulsion bubble- Use it on ambushes that rush an AV fight. ITF is a good example. I can't see much other use for it other than a panic button.

Mass hypnosis, sleep- The problem with this isn't with the powers themselves, or with the powers being useless. It comes from John Wayne types who refuse to lay off the AoEs and make use of sleep. I'm one of these types alot of the time, so I'm not saying anything bad about it. The worst problem with these though, is the fact that you can't get people to cooperate with you to make em work.

Telekinesis- solo power I think. I don't have it in my build. And with everyone running around all willy-nilly and knocking stuff around and taking out your targets, it's hard to line em up and pin them into a corner with this one. I imagine this one is good when you are on a small team, and you pin em to the corner while another guy pounds on em. TK is also a PVP thing, which i don't know much about.

The ITF is a rough spot for control. The Cimeroreans PBAoE mez protection shuts down a lot of what you can do unless you're very proactive. If you confuse them before they can shout it will go a long way. Of course, you need to get to them before anyone else tosses out a mez, which generally means moving ahed of the tank. Your sleep will do little against them other than impede the aggro grabber from gathering them and triggering the shout that will protect them from other mezzes. Even when Mass Confusion is down confusing lieutentants and bosses will help.

On the FF side of things, some of your tools don't mesh well with the open maps you'll find in the ITF. Force Bubble, Repulsion Field, and Telekinesis all work better on indoor maps where you can use walls and corners to limit the distance of the powers. You can use those powers to route ambushes at the computer or when fighting Romulus, but that may not be the best option if you have a kin or other powerset that will take advantage of the large mobs. Detention Field may seem useful for surgeons, but a simple confuse will keep them spot healing while leaving them open to be taken down.

As for the STF, I've never seen a team cage the Flyer. If you take it down at the right time, you'll generally have 20 minutes or so to work without interference. Detention Field, however, can be very useful if you cage the right tower at the right time. It can also be useful in the event of engaging too many of the big 4, but know which one your teammates need indisposed.

I made a brief video of my Mind/Cold troller soloing. Unfortunately I don't know where to get a free program that can record more than about 30 seconds of play. The video shows how I use Power Boost to get around Containment limitations imposed by Mind/Cold (the damage in the rain power cancels the sleep in Mass Hypnosis). The powers, in order, are Power Boost >> Mass Confusion >> Total Domination >> Heat Loss >> Sleet >> Terrify >> Energy Torrent, with a Mass Hyp thrown at the enemies outside the rain to keep them planted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ3s_wQz26Q

Note that I messed up, and should have cast Energy Torrent first followed by Terrify rather than the reverse. This is because of how the animations work and because enemies ET knocks down can't shoot back when I Terrify them. Not a big deal here since everything was held and confused, but more important once those wear off and I'm relying mostly on Mass Hyp and previous Terrify-s.

Your solo chain would obviously be different. Depending on your recharge, I'd suggest alternating between Mass Confusion and Total Dom for each spawn. Then do Mass Hyp. Next cast Energy Torrent >> Terrify. Importantly, make sure to activate Terrify immediately while Energy Torrent is still animating. If you do it right you should get containment bonus damage from both attacks.

On teams, Power Boost >> Total Dom or Power Boost >> Mass Confus will take care of most enemies. I would definitely not use Force Bubble to gather aggro on teams as that will almost surely backfire.

You may notice the special bar I have in the lower mid section of the screen. That's my "aggroless bar." When I'm stealthing I use that bar to make sure I never accidentally click anything that could cause aggro, and can jump into intangibility/self heal via temp powers if I get in over my head unexpectedly.

If you didn't pick the Primal APP... let us know which APP you picked. Other than maybe the villain PPPs (for the pet which you can shield) I have a hard time thinking of a competitive epic set for Mind/FF.

Great video tex! gave me giggles! Hey, do you think a very similar thing could be done with a mind/rad/primal? or does the reason your toon rock the house come from /cold? Im a nutbar about /rad so I was hoping to do something like what you just did there with a mind/rad i've been planning (mainly cuz getting a high recharge build on a mind/rad is pretty easy.)

Don't give up on the toon, just make up your mind that this toon will be something you play when you're really in the mood to play a support role.

I can't help but think of my Mind/Storm. Poor ol' Rerun. I never play her. She's just perma-lodged at like 35. More buttons than a stealth bomber, very compicated to play. All you really have is *strategy*. She's got no damage. Some of her most important powers cause (an INEXPLICABLE) XP loss, unlike MM's. (Yes, that means confusion, and the damage caused by your confused mobs taking away from the XP. Totally wrong IMO.) She causes nothing but total chaos, s#!t flying around everywhere, and even when I was all practiced up playing her, and could TK/'cane mobs into a corner where they were totally helpless, a lot of folks didn't like what I was doing.

Even just hanging back with all the squishies/ranged folks in the 'cane, someone would eventually grumble about it.

The way I would play a Mind/FF is, just keep the buff icons showing, and keep everyone bubbled. Stay in the back, and protect the other squishies. Your powers as a Mind troller are SO chaotic and crazy, that they should be reserved for bad situations. If the tank loses agg control, and the squishies are getting rushed, let loose. Basically, you are the team's "OS button". And if they can't appreciate your shields making them MUCH more survivable, and the safety factor of you protecting the healer(s), then they are dumb. Think about it: if the healer never dies, the team can't lose. (assuming the healer is that good). If someone kicks you, on a Controller, from any team, at any time, because you don't "bring enuff dmg", they are officially dain bramaged even worse than me, and therefore should have their keyboard surgically removed... for all time. Trollers aren't really for damage.

It's not flashy, you're not jumping around with flying swords, or twirling guns, but when all hell breaks loose, you can stop it dead. Kinda boring, sure, but anyone who *knows* this game will appreciate what you're bringing. Heck, I've been on some teams lately where they don't want the 'trollers locking anything down. At all. Probly because we're seeing a lot more brutes blue side now, and they NEED to be surrounded at all times. Teaming a troller with a brute is very difficult to do right. Just keep the brute buffed and try not to die lol.

DISCLAIMER:
But all this is just my theories, humbly submitted for you to consider. I tend to be pretty opinionated and blunt, being part Irish, so someone might try to pick apart my post here and flame me, even though it's just some opinions from another player, trying to be helpful. *sigh*. None of this is meant in a "mean" way. It's about 35% sillyness.

There is nothing on paper saying you can't do amazing things with mind/ff. Along with the point that you can hold the crap out of stuff, once you get ranged d maxed, it'll be easy street if you keep some greens around or a friend that can heal. I've got a small build I would use if I was to make another troller, But I'm fairly certain I'm a dom man now. Can't shake the double mag and duration feeling I get when playing. Besides, when you have an up every group power like seeds of confusion, you can get all the buffs you want from the baddies... XD

But if you want some pointers, I'll post my build and you can use what you want.

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One way you can farm solo, is use the provoke to pull the baddies around corners til they hit your force bubble, they keep bouncing back till all of them are bunched, then release the wave. This not your steamroller, and there are far more and better toons for that, but this will get you some laughs and I feel maybe even allow you to feel actually super.

A few more things that you need to remember is everything you do in life is 90% mental. I believe that people think of all ATs the same, and that is if you don't see the numbers, you aren't doing anything. So when it comes to trollers many feel there are under preforming. What they are failing to see is not the numbers, but in fact they are failing to see what the baddies are not doing.... Attacking you, and that trumps all forms of things we as players can do with our toons. Power to the Holds!

I went back and watched the videos posted prior to mine about herding with Mind Control. What I'm seeing in the videos is something I would personally not try. However that's probably because we didn't use to have the ability to set the number of enemies we want to fight, so if you wanted to fight a lot of them you had to go aggro lots of small groups and draw them all back.

Here is a much superior way I'd do it now: set the mission to +0x4-8 (whatever you can handle). Turn on stealth. If a group looks like it's too much trouble to deal with, run past it. If it's the final group you have to kill to complete the mission and still too dangerous for you, confuse them one by and let them mostly kill each other. Alternatively, sleep the group, confuse the few who are the most trouble, then use Levitate to pull one enemy. You'll end up breaking enemies apart into three waves: the first guy you pulled, the sleepers, and finally the confused guys (who will probably hurt or kill each other badly).

Mind Control is a trickster. There is little to be gained from charging into every fight. You don't have a pet to alert enemies to your presence; you are self reliant and can strike whichever group happens to give you the biggest advantages; take advantage of that. Try to avoid dragging enemies all over and hit them where they stand. If it's just 1 or 2 enemies separated from the rest, confuse them, and then strike when they run to attack their allies.

Mind/FF is easy to softcap and it's worth it to do so. S/L is the easy route to softcap but I would recommend working in ranged as well. Slot mesmerize and levitate for damage, some even do so for dominate. Currently I have a full set of devastation in all 3 on my mind/ff.

On teams buff every 4 minutes and then go into aggressive mode. Mesmerize is the best mez in the game and it does damage to boot. One shot sleeping an AV is invaluable for some end game encounters. The fact that all mind attacks have psi component means you should target the minos/cyclops when they hit their god mode during ITF. I don't bother with the gimmicks in FF, on a well run team they don't provide any significant benefit but I do concede that detention field and force bolt has limited uses.

Play all your toons aggressively, then you'll never feel useless.

Ok so I was working on my Mind/Rad build in mids. And while i can get perma hasten and AM pretty easy and cheap, I saw the recharge times on the mass confusion, total dom, and mass hypnosis were still a little long for my liking. (down to like 60 seconds-ish) That seems a long time for your controls recharge wise, or is it just me? I've been playing my ill/rad for a long time and it never seems like im waiting on anything so having to wait 60 seconds on a recharge seems a little high. what's everyone elses opinion?

I have decided to stick with the ACC slot for my alpha in this guy (caffiene nicotine).
As for slotting, I did have 3 sets of thunderstrikes in my single target powers, but I may change that. I have every power but tele on the mind side and they are all 6 slotted. I have the malaise set on the two confuses and the purple proc on the mass confuse.

On the bubble side, i have the 3 bubble shields, all 5 slotted with your standard cheap DEF IO set. (they all give some recharge) I try to supplement by using manuvers, hasten, and as many IO sets as i can for bonuses. This guy isnt my main and actually is a non combatant, and yes I DO usually head off ahead of the tank on most teams which pisses people off, but i do not prefer to stand back and be a bubble bot. I am aware of the ITF and the effects of the scream power buff. Thats why i have stealth and such. I also have the Primal APP for PBU...the best single power for My type in the game. I will often PBU and then bubble all melee types. Usually my teams are WELL over the softcap on all types.

My main problem is that every set has flashy AoE controlls except mind. if you do not pay attention, you may think a mind troller isnt doing **** except giving people the occasional massive headache. never mind the fact that Plant's Confuse is almost straight up better then mine...and mine is its cornerstone tier 9!!! the only difference is that mine doesnt cause aggro if it misses. Compound that with because of domination, dominators do mind better than controllers do. The long recharges and lack of being able to up the MAG of our attacks hurt us. I am thinking that the only power secondary that makes mind worthwhile is /KIN or /RAD.

all in all, i will probably shelf this guy and work on my plant/kin, fire/rad, or very slow going ice/storm...tons of alt's and tons of possibilities for me and all of us.

Dev's, if you read this, please think about how this set is constantly having its main powers infringed on. maybe some sort of small buff to cone size on some powers, or making them more visable, or lessening recharge...anything.

IMHO, mind is well behind the other control types in overall performance. I knew this getting into this controller, and i hope some day in the future some sort of buff comes my way to make him more playable in the future.

In response to Nemu who spoke of trickster style:

I love doing this, but on teams it pisses people off. I love teaming and hate soloing, so I may have to look at a more team oriented guy like a earth, plant or fire type. Every so oft, i sneak off, randomly confuse people and wipe out whole would be spawns..including the area up top on the ITF or downstairs on mission one of the STF. If you have the right build, right use of your utility powers, and superb slotting for max recharge, you can do a ton. Thing is, most other sets like illusion and plant can so the same and more.

I just wish some of the sets had a more unique feel than being vannila copies of other power sets with obligitory AoE's, hold's, critters and such.

I guess I am just upset because if you give everyone sleeps and confuses, then Mind just isn't as special as it used to be. I do not get a pet...gimme something unique!