Why do I dislike Masterminds more and more?
By
Arbegla,
Posted on: 2010-12-19 13:12 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Well, one reason I mentioned Ninjas is while the Genins do a lot of damage, Jounin and Oni do more, particularly with you backing up the Oni with Smoke Flash. Lich is somewhat less of a damage dealer, it is more the Tier 1 and 2 in that case. |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Yes, I've tried ignoring summoning tier 1 pets but guess what? Tier 1 pets in Necro actually do decent damage especially they have two aoe (not that it's great but it's better than nothing). And Genins provide a lot of damage (probably the most for tier 1 pets but they also die the easiest).
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OTOH, Necro tends to be somewhat more survivable.
Thugs is really the set that is built for it, though, the Enforcers have the majority of the damage, the Punks aren't really that damaging without the Arsonist (who delights in getting his fool self killed) and the Bruiser is likely the most resiliant Tier 3 available. And you can send him into melee while the Enforcers can stand back out of the AoEs.
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You may be right, though demons have very high resistances all around, plus more RES from one of the pets, quite high damage to take things down, and lots of -recharge. Once the final pet is in the mix, he spams a ton of -recharge and holds. From my experience the demons are quite sturdy. But I don't have extensive experience with bots.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
I would say Thugs, then Robots, then Demons, actually. Thugs is definitely the top, and not only because they can slot RIP. Bots is clearly second, though, because even without RIP they can have a native 20+% defence, 25% if you include the pet-set aura - and unlike Thugs, they have two healers. Demons doesn't come close to that. Demons are still high-performing, but unlike Thugs and Robots, they don't have any inherent defence, and their resistance isn't large enough to compensate (they do have a single healer, which helps make up the difference, but not enough to put them in the top two.)
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I probably should have been a little more clear; I was pointing out two healers as opposed to none, not one.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
*Tilts head*
You're probably right. I guess I thought that pointing out that Robots has two healers was meant to contrast against another set having only one healer. |
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My 50 MMs are Thugs and Bots. My Demon MM is only level 26, having just gotten her Demon Prince. It's a pretty tough set, but the Demonlings die almost as much as the Thugs' Arsonist (who honestly would die a lot less if I could just put a damn leash on him).
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Originally Posted by Dispari
You may be right, though demons have very high resistances all around, plus more RES from one of the pets, quite high damage to take things down, and lots of -recharge. Once the final pet is in the mix, he spams a ton of -recharge and holds. From my experience the demons are quite sturdy. But I don't have extensive experience with bots.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Well, one reason I mentioned Ninjas is while the Genins do a lot of damage, Jounin and Oni do more, particularly with you backing up the Oni with Smoke Flash. Lich is somewhat less of a damage dealer, it is more the Tier 1 and 2 in that case.
OTOH, Necro tends to be somewhat more survivable. Thugs is really the set that is built for it, though, the Enforcers have the majority of the damage, the Punks aren't really that damaging without the Arsonist (who delights in getting his fool self killed) and the Bruiser is likely the most resiliant Tier 3 available. And you can send him into melee while the Enforcers can stand back out of the AoEs. |
I guess I need to accept the fact that Necro and Ninja tier 1 pets are basically bad cannon fodders and I should just ignore them and let them die because babysit them is not worth it in tough fights. It costs a lot of endurance, time and just frustrate the hell of me.
Are Necro and Ninja balanced without Tier 1 pets? I don't think zombies survive any better than genins because genins at least have 3 range attacks and sometimes one or two of them would stay at range; whereas zombies tend to go in after the first range puke.
Grave Knights and Jounins don't survive any better in extremely situation either. I know my GK die whenever the final boss uses that lightning aoe attack. The only way for me to deal some damage is for my pets to stand away from aoe radius.
Melee pets just can't handle tough situations. I can't imagine using them in Apex or Tin Mage when the mobs are +4 to me. The frustration will make me hate my MMs. I did take out my Merc/Storm last night for a bit. She is doing alright in regular mission but who doesn't? :P
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I completely agree with the op. In fact I'd go further and say that I don't like playing on large teams at all with my mm's.
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Oh I didn't read this part until now. I like this idea. Alpha Slot needs to improve pets more than improving the master. The level shift for tier 1 to become -1 level is very nice. |
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
Add the inherent to level shift MM pets as the MM crafts higher level incarnate gear as part of the normal routine. For example, the first MM level shift would be the -2 (tertiary) henchman being turned to -1 henchmen at the end game, the second level shift for the -1 (secondary) henchman to be even combat level to caster, the third level shift would be for the -2 (tertiary) henchman to be even combat level to the caster, and the fourth level shift would be for the big henchman to be +1 to the caster. That would mean that the eventual incarnate MM would have a single level 51 primary pet and the secondary and tertiary pets would be even level to the caster. Each stage could be added as the capping point to 1 of the 10 phases of incarnate progression (ie. the finish of Alpha would only net the MM the shift of the -2 pets to -1).
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I can totally imagine once everyone has full Alpha Slots, MMs will be the weakest because the pets don't scale well with set bonuses/alpha slots. Who cares how much your pets can do when they get one-shot so often.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Pets and the MM should all level shift at the same rate. If your MM is level shifted to 52, then your pets would hopefully level shift to 52-51-50 for tiers 3-2-1 respectively.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Oh I didn't read this part until now. I like this idea. Alpha Slot needs to improve pets more than improving the master. The level shift for tier 1 to become -1 level is very nice.
I can totally imagine once everyone has full Alpha Slots, MMs will be the weakest because the pets don't scale well with set bonuses/alpha slots. Who cares how much your pets can do when they get one-shot so often. |
This aspect should definitely be tested throughly once open Beta hits. But I see no reason for a piecemeal level shifting as that poster suggested. If the MM shifts up one level through an alpha slot, then all of his pets should shift up a level as well. (Note-- they will still be levels 48, 49, and 50 but treated as higher level foes with regard to the purple patch.)
I'm with the OP. I love the concept of MMs and they are definitely my favorite class to solo. However when you get to 50, they just don't scale up to what other level 50s are doing. Yeah, several of my MMs were able to solo the Scirocco arc, set to AVs but given how most teams I join are speed runs, or the lvl 54 mobs, I do feel I'm left playing the role of the petless MM, minus the attacks such an MM would take.
Non-speed tfs, no problems. Yes there's pet death but it's managable. I haven't brought a MM to a new incarnate tf, so I don't have first-hand experience on that. On paper though, I'm dreading it...
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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Did not know this information...if this is CB info shouldn't it be under NDA?
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
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Well, I would think the zombies are more survivable, since they have resistances, and after 32 they supposedly have a life drain power. Of course, if they are dying before they can get off the life drain, it can't really help. And genins have innate Defense. The question is, is the Defense stronger than the Resistance, which against the kind of damage zombies are designed to be strong against it really isn't. |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I don't think zombies survive any better than genins because genins at least have 3 range attacks and sometimes one or two of them would stay at range; whereas zombies tend to go in after the first range puke.
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Again, though, if you're trying to keep your Tier 1s out of melee because they are getting slaughtered, and they're the Tier 1s in a melee set, you're not getting anywhere. Bots and Thugs the Tier 1s are not melee. Necro and Ninjas they are. Maybe they throw a shuriken or two, but if you're holding your Genin out of melee range, you aren't making use of them except as cannon fodder anyway.
Maybe what Ninjas really needs is a Melee Defense that can stack on top of their general defense. That way they will actually have a chance to survive in melee, where they are supposed to be. But until the devs actually decide there is a problem and something is worth doing about it, I don't see anything changing. The problem is that MMs are extremely strong in their baseline, but they don't really get any stronger than that. If you make an MM able to handle Task Force enemies as easily as any other fully IOed AT, it will be too strong for the regular content and just steamroller over it.
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I am not in closed Beta. It's entirely speculation on my part over how a level shift SHOULD logically occur for MMs. It makes no sense for the MM to invest in incarnate slots, and potentially be level shifted 52+ at some point way in the future with all 10 incarnate slots, while having his pets run around at 50, 49, and 48. |
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
Did not know this information...if this is CB info shouldn't it be under NDA?
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What we know is that there is supposed to be a level shift attached to the alpha slot (see: GR website for a complete tree). We also know that there is an inspiration that applies a level shift-- this one will probably not apply to the pets (see: inspirations tab at BM/WW).
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I am hoping that you are right, but the same thing could have been said about IO set bonuses as well when being applied to MM pets.
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
It makes no sense for the MM to invest in incarnate slots, and potentially be level shifted 52+ at some point way in the future with all 10 incarnate slots, while having his pets run around at 50, 49, and 48.
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I've tried Poison. I even slogged through on a Thugs/Poison to level 26, and that's supposedly one of the best sets to pair with poison. I hated it. I guess I just don't have the right mindset/playstyle to be able to manage it, but even loading that character up felt like a chore. It's not even that the thugs died all the time. I'm not sure they did, other than the Arsonist, who practically summons in dead. I've got a Ninja/Trick Arrow mastermind that just mows through their own minions, to the point that a friend has nicknamed the character DNA for Disposable Ninja Army. But the Ninja is, to me, far more fun to play.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
The set nobody ever remembers is Poison. It's great enemy debuff and decent ally buff, which is a really good combination for Masterminds.
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Part of the problem was the absolute single-target nature of Poison. If I picked out the only Boss and got the first shot, great, I'd cripple them beyond hope. And then get one-shotted myself by the melee LT that was standing out of sight the moment I told the thugs to attack. There's also the fact that I wanted my character to be a specific origin and backstory, and running around spitting venom on people just didn't fit. I wanted a rogue chemist, and I ended up with Toad.
I only have lvl 30 MMs so but I wanted to post anyway. On my fire/kins I no longer take fire imps for the same reason as the OP is talking about. I play +4/8 w/o imps. When I had them they just died. Now I don't have to heal as much and the pets don't go aggro crazy. But like MM pets I think our pets should have the save survivability as we do. IMO
Check out this!!!! http://www.youtube.com/user/LastRoninCoH/featured
Honestly, if your pets cannot soft cap, then they die constantly. Resistance based pets like demons I'm pretty skeptical if they can really handle end game content with 54 level mobs. I think demons are cool and fun... but mostly popular because they are new. I bet they'd die in a flash on the new end game tf's.
That means the only viable long term mm's are bots or thugs paired with traps or ff.
Its pretty disappointing ;( Well, if you don't happen to be playing one of those anyway, lol.
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Don't forget that Tornado can slot RIP sets, so it's still possible for any MM to get all 4 auras, so long as they're /Storm.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I think the best performers are Thugs and Demons, then Robots. Someone will probably disagree and rank Robots at the top, but the reason I put them after Thugs and Demons is because they can slot RIP sets and get +20% RES and +10% DEF. Robots can only do half that, although they're pretty durable by themselves.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Demonlings die almost as much as the Thugs' Arsonist (who honestly would die a lot less if I could just put a damn leash on him).
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
I played Guild War's Beast Master and I love how my pet IS my weapon.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
I cannot imagine bringing any of my MMs to the two new SFs (Apex and Tin Mage). Those mobs are +4 level to me so any hit pretty much kill my minions and I hate losing any of my pets and resummoning them again and again. I already put 4 pet uniques. I took maneuver and I even try to get melee with my pets so I can aoe heal them as soon as it's up.
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Though I must say, the Alpha slot has helped me so much with my pets' lifespans. I'm currently using Nerve Radial Boost for +20% def slotting. Between defense powers (such as Maneuvers, Steamy Mist, Shadow Fall, Force Field Generator, Deflection Shield, Insulation Shield, Dispersion Bubble), the Pet and RIP set uniques, and the pets themselves (Enforcers and Protector Bots), and Nerve Radial Boost, henchmen can get pretty tough. After slotting NRB, my Thugs jumped up past the soft-cap to about 54% at rest. The AVs on the Tin/Apex TFs now have a 10.5% chance to hit my Bruiser, an 11.25% chance to hit my Enforcers, and a 13.5% chance to hit my Punks and Arsonist. The Minions on those TFs range from 9% chance to hit my T1 henchmen to a 7% chance for my T3.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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In fact, I quit GW when my MM (minionmaster) in GW became no fun to play. I came to CoV and rolled a necro/dark MM (mastermind!) with the same name. I miss the inhuman monster models, but the character is just more fun to play.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Sorry, the Mastermind AT is the Minion Master (Necromancer) build in GW, not the Beast Master (Ranger) build. If you want a Beast Master, play a Controller with a buffing secondary. (Unfortunately, unlike a GW Beast Master, you will get your pet at 32 instead of 2.)
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I'll admit, I can't play GW Minion Masters because I don't want to wait for corpses to show up. I just run Sabway heroes and let Olias be a MM.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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I quit about the time they put a cap on how many pets you could have and changed the heal powers.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
I'll admit, I can't play GW Minion Masters because I don't want to wait for corpses to show up. I just run Sabway heroes and let Olias be a MM.
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You used to be able to upkeep around 15-20 pets if you were good, but it took constant work and a steady supply of bodies. It was also only do-able thanks to the minion heal powers. One patch put a cap on pets at 10, and reduced the heal powers to about 1/4 effectiveness (literally speaking; one had its duration halved and recharge doubled). Suddenly I was working several times as hard to keep around half as many pets, and it had gone from fun to a chore.
As far as MMs in CoH go, to stay on topic... I feel that MMs start high but cap lower. They're fairly powerful early on, and at 50 compared to regular builds they're still pretty good. But once you factor in IOs they just become average, since IOs don't do as much for them. I haven't tried any of the new TFs with my MMs, and I'd hate to do the Battle Maiden fight, but for most content I seem to do fine just strolling along with my Necro. The pets die occasionally, but part of the fun of Necro is making ghosts out of your minions. Demons, Thugs, and Bots are even more durable than zombies, so they're even less of a hassle.
Mercs and Ninjas though I can't say many good things about.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I have been out of touch for some time: I just remember Statesman's whole risk/reward spiel. Were the +cons better for drops in the past?
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Originally Posted by ketch
The XP is there, but the drop rates don't change with +1, +2, or even +3 enemy level. The drop tables rely on the enemy rank, e.g. minion, lieutenant, or boss. For drops, you're better off setting your difficulty to -1/x8, bosses-yes, and then just mowing through weaker crowds.
Of course, that's no problem for most mm's. They can set it on cruise control and roll. |
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When I am on a big team, heck any team I always end up feeling guilty that I am blocking everyone from getting though doors and just plain being in the way with all my bots.... they dont even get into melle like some.
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Originally Posted by _Klaw_
I completely agree with the op. In fact I'd go further and say that I don't like playing on large teams at all with my mm's.
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+ Cons were only better for inf and XPs. Drops are based on rank (Minion, LT, Boss, EB, AV) no matter what level they are. I don't think there ever was a time where greater Con meant greater drops.
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Oh, incidentally: Poison sucks. Poison is a horrible set, and there's no excuse for its existence. None whatsoever. |
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
The set nobody ever remembers is Poison. It's great enemy debuff and decent ally buff, which is a really good combination for Masterminds.
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Look at Poison. Look closely at its powers. Poison is Radiation Emission changed to single target. It has slightly higher numbers in some places and a few unique effects to "compensate", but Masterminds would be much better off just having Radiation Emission to start with than being saddled with the poor cousin substitute that is Poison.
They also should have a proper heal radius on Twilight's Grasp, but i19 is really starting to show me that the Devs really don't care one whit about making Masterminds an actual viable AT for team or high-level play. They just don't care enough to bother.
Sets added to Masterminds after their initial launch have been added more-or-less intact straight as other ATs get them. There was a fear in their initial design that Masterminds would be too powerful, thus the reduced effects built in with the Poisons powerset and in Dark Miasma (Masterminds are also the only Dark Miasma set that don't get a permanent Fluffy.) I don't think these fears came to be justified, however, but we're still stuck with the gimped versions of powers we got out of the box, likely largely due to the short-sighted "Cottage Rule" that seems to be Bible around here.
I think the number of MM players who would really mind that their Poison powerset was changed to Radiation Emission would be countable on one hand.
The only pet that survives longer is Lich but that's because he stands far.
Maybe there is a huge discrepancy between Robot/Thug (and maybe Demons?) VS other Primaries. I just don't like Robots. I see them everywhere and it bores me. I feel the melee pets don't have enough survival to be at melee range. The Genins have no business kicking AVs if they can't survive one hit.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.