Question about SS's Rage from a new player


Auroxis

 

Posted

I'm pretty new to the game, but have found my greatest fun so far with Brutes, Doms, Controllers and Scrappers. I thought I had read somewhere that if you could get your recharge to where Rage recharged in less than sixty seconds that you didn't suffer any down time at all from it?

I managed to do that with this spec while I tried to mostly remain true to all the powers as far as giving them what they needed. Did I gimp him too much by trying for too much recharge?

And he is only fractionally below sixty seconds, maybe a keybind could make that work or maybe not, are their ways to get more recharge that I missed while still staying true to the powers?

Could he farm with footstomp? Could he solo AVs? His Defense is low but I thought WP was mostly about the regen anyway?

I know these IOs cost rediculous amounts of money but I'm told the tip missions and allignment merits are a good answer to getting LotG IOs, etc.

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.90
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Prince Thorson Rage: Level 50 Natural Brute
Primary Power Set: Super Strength
Secondary Power Set: Willpower
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Punch -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(A), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(36), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(36), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg:50(37), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx:50(37), Mako-Dam%:50(37)
Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- Heal-I:50(A), Heal-I:50(5), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(5)
Level 2: Haymaker -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Mako-Dam%:50(3), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(29), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(31), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg:50(31), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx:50(34)
Level 4: Fast Healing -- Panac-Heal:50(A), Panac-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg:40(7), Panac-Heal/Rchg:50(23), Panac-Heal/EndRedux:50(43), Panac-EndRdx/Rchg:50(43)
Level 6: Air Superiority -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(A), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(25), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(25), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg:50(27), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx:50(27), Mako-Dam%:50(29)
Level 8: Knockout Blow -- Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(9), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg:50(11), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx:50(11), Hectmb-Dam%:50(15), Mako-Dam%:40(15)
Level 10: Indomitable Will -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(13), RechRdx-I:50(13)
Level 14: Fly -- Flight-I:50(A)
Level 16: Rise to the Challenge -- Heal-I:50(A), Heal-I:50(17), Heal-I:50(17)
Level 18: Rage -- RechRdx-I:50(A), AdjTgt-Rchg:50(19), RechRdx-I:50(19), AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg:50(21), RechRdx-I:50(39), RechRdx-I:50(39)
Level 20: Quick Recovery -- Efficacy-EndMod:50(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:50(21), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(23), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg:50(36), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc:50(46), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx:50(50)
Level 22: Stealth -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 24: Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 26: Hurl -- KinCrsh-Dmg/KB:50(A), KinCrsh-Rechg/EndRdx:50(40), KinCrsh-Dmg/EndRdx/KB:50(40), KinCrsh-Rchg/KB:50(40), KinCrsh-Acc/KB:50(42), KinCrsh-Acc/Dmg/KB:50(43)
Level 28: Heightened Senses -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 30: Mind Over Body -- ResDam-I:50(A), ResDam-I:50(31)
Level 32: Foot Stomp -- Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx:50(33), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg:50(33), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg:50(33), Armgdn-Dam%:50(34), Erad-%Dam:30(34)
Level 35: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 38: Strength of Will -- ResDam-I:50(A), ResDam-I:50(39)
Level 41: Superior Conditioning -- EndMod-I:50(A)
Level 44: Laser Beam Eyes -- Apoc-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(45), Apoc-Acc/Rchg:50(45), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx:50(45), Apoc-Dam%:50(46), DefDeb-I:50(46)
Level 47: Energy Torrent -- Ragnrk-Dmg:50(A), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg:50(48), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(48), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg:50(48), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx:50(50), JavVoll-Dam%:50(50)
Level 49: Physical Perfection -- EndMod-I:50(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- ULeap-Stlth:50(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Flight-I:50(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 2: Health -- Panac-Heal/+End:50(A), Panac-Heal:50(7), Panac-Heal/EndRedux:50(9), Panac-Heal/Rchg:50(42), Panac-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg:50(42)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I:50(A), EndMod-I:50(3)


 

Posted

I rather dislike that build. Just going to come out and say it.

Also, double stacking rage will nullify the -Defense portion of the crash, but the -end and the -dam are still applied to the rage crash.



Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.

 

Posted

You've hit the recharge cap on Rage(+300%), so no point in fitting any more recharge in there. I would try to fit in some defense, as all types of mitigation multiply each other(resistance,defense,regen).

Remember than in I19 you get to have the Spiritual Alpha, giving you a boost to your recharge and regen. Once you pick that up you should have room in your build to save money by removing purples or getting some defense.


Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster

 

Posted

To the build itself. Remember, spending lots of influence to get the '733t l00tz' is not always the answer. Will Power does not benefit from +recharge. It might be nice to have foot stomp up as much as possible, but in terms of reality, you either need a crap ton of +recharge to make it noticeably faster. Pick up [Mind Over Body] earlier, its helpful. Enhancement Diversification makes the extra recharge in Rage useless. Air Sup is a pretty decent power, and if you like/want it, its your prerogative. I would personally grab either Combat Jumping or Hasten.

IOs for a WP should place +Defense in priority. First you want Smashing/Lethal Defense, then shoot for the other two, then +HP when you can't slot for defense.

Like this...

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.90
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Natural Brute
Primary Power Set: Super Strength
Secondary Power Set: Willpower
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Punch -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(45), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(46), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(3), Numna-Heal/Rchg(3), Aegis-Psi/Status(5), Aegis-ResDam(5), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(7)
Level 2: Haymaker -- KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(40), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(43), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(43), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 4: Fast Healing -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(15), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(15), Heal-I(23)
Level 6: Mind Over Body -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(7), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(9), RctvArm-ResDam(9)
Level 8: Knockout Blow -- KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(A), KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(36), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(37), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 10: Indomitable Will -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(11), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(11)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(13), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 14: Super Speed -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Rise to the Challenge -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(17), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(17)
Level 18: Rage -- Rec'dRet-ToHit(A), RechRdx-I(19), Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(19)
Level 20: Quick Recovery -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(21), P'Shift-EndMod(21)
Level 22: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(25), RctvArm-ResDam(25), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(27)
Level 26: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(27), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(29)
Level 28: Heightened Senses -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(29), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(31)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(31), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(31)
Level 32: Foot Stomp -- Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Erad-Acc/Rchg(33), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(33), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(50)
Level 35: Combat Jumping -- Ksmt-ToHit+(A)
Level 38: Taunt -- Mocking-Rchg(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(39), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(39), Mocking-Acc/Rchg(39), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(40)
Level 41: Char -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(42), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(42), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(42)
Level 44: Fire Blast -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Thundr-Acc/Dmg(45), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(45)
Level 47: Fire Ball -- AirB'st-Acc/Dmg(A), AirB'st-Dmg/EndRdx(48), AirB'st-Dmg/Rchg(48), AirB'st-Dmg/Rng(48), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(50)
Level 49: Strength of Will -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Heal(34), Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx(36), RgnTis-Regen+(36), Heal-I(50)
Level 2: Stamina -- Empty(A), Empty(23), Empty(34)



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It's not the best build out there, but is something you can check out to see what you can fiddle with.



Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.

 

Posted

Since you seem willing to invest the time/inf, I think you would be much better served if you pursue smashing/lethal/melee set bonuses rather than recharge. 4 kinetic combats in your melee attacks would be a good place to start.

I would also recommend dropping the flight and concealment pools and picking up Boxing, Tough, Weave and Maneuvers instead.

And to answer your main question--that's wayyy too much recharge in Rage. With three slotted hasten and a few LotGs you shouldn't need more than 50-60% recharge for it to be perma.


Open the pod bay doors, Hal.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jericho View Post
I thought I had read somewhere that if you could get your recharge to where Rage recharged in less than sixty seconds that you didn't suffer any down time at all from it?
Rage lasts 120 seconds.

Then you crash for 10s, suffer -20% to all DEF, -25% End, and -10K to your damage bonus.

If you activate Rage before the 120s is up, you can negate the -DEF portion, and only the -DEF portion.

So if you can re-activate Rage in 119s, you will avoid the -DEF.

In which case, you don't need all of that recharge.

Now if you want to double stack Rage for the +DAM, then that's a different story.

Although I personally avoid it.


My recommendation would be to rebuild for a minimum of 30% DEF to SM/L/Energy/Neg. If you can get SM/L to 35-45%, even better, 45% will require sacrifices.


 

Posted

ok, thank you for the info, i guess what I didn't ask correctly was: I'd heard you could avoid the def crash by DOUBLE stacking rage, but had read somewhere that if you TRIPLE stacked it (cast it every 59 seconds) you avoided the other crashes. Even if that's not true, does anyone triple stack rage?

Very new to the game so all help is appreciated


 

Posted

Thats not true, and its really not worth it to triple stack rage. Not only is trying to get that much +rech a waste but it just means you get rage crashes A LOT. So the more often you use rage the less the +DMG helps (im not very good at explaining it), you still end up doing more dmg technically i believe but it's just a ***** to get the crash so often


"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal

@Caucasiafro

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus View Post
Now if you want to double stack Rage for the +DAM, then that's a different story.

Although I personally avoid it.
This.

I have a SS/SR brute with almost enough recharge to double-stack Rage all the time. The recharge is there to get Foot Stomp back as quick as possible, not to stack Rage.

Generally, I hit Rage when the previous application starts blinking on my power bar, to avoid the -def. I only double stack when I'm fighting tough targets like AVs. And when I'm doing that, I often see my endurance start to drop at an alarming rate once the crashes catch up.

Also, if you single stack Rage, you have 110s of good damage followed by 10s of no damage. (No damage 8.3% of the time)
Double stacked, you get 50s of huge damage followed by 10s of no damage. (No damage 16.7% of the time)
Triple stacked, you get 30s of quite a lot of damage, followed by 10s of no damage. (No damage 25% of the time!)
All these times assume that the power fires at the exact moment a previous application ends, as a crash starts. While triple stacking does a really large amount of damage, you spend so much time in Rage crashes that your DPS over time goes WAY down, and you may not be able to sustain any decent attack chain with that much of an end drain, even on a WP brute. Plus, using KO Blow and seeing 4 damage is really annoying.


@Roderick

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jericho View Post
ok, thank you for the info, i guess what I didn't ask correctly was: I'd heard you could avoid the def crash by DOUBLE stacking rage, but had read somewhere that if you TRIPLE stacked it (cast it every 59 seconds) you avoided the other crashes. Even if that's not true, does anyone triple stack rage?

Very new to the game so all help is appreciated
No, not true. The only part of the crash that can be avoided by stacking is the -def.

As for stacking in game, I pretty much never double stack it unless I need extra +tohit for something. The extra damage isn't noticeable with good Fury going and I'd rather crash less often.


Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roderick View Post
Also, if you single stack Rage, you have 110s of good damage followed by 10s of no damage. (No damage 8.3% of the time)
Double stacked, you get 50s of huge damage followed by 10s of no damage. (No damage 16.7% of the time)
Triple stacked, you get 30s of quite a lot of damage, followed by 10s of no damage. (No damage 25% of the time!)
All these times assume that the power fires at the exact moment a previous application ends, as a crash starts. While triple stacking does a really large amount of damage, you spend so much time in Rage crashes that your DPS over time goes WAY down, and you may not be able to sustain any decent attack chain with that much of an end drain, even on a WP brute. Plus, using KO Blow and seeing 4 damage is really annoying.
Assuming a worst case scenario of an SS/SD brute with max Fury, ~101% damage slotting in all attacks, Musculature Core Paragon Alpha and saturated AAO; Base damage with no Rage applications is 100+200+101.47+(0.15x15)+30+65=498.72%

Single stack average DPS% is 110x(498.72+80)/120 = 530.49%.
Double stacking Rage is 50x(498.72+160)/60 = 548.93%.
Triple stacking is 30x(498.72+240)/40 = 554.04%.
Quadruple stacking is 20x(498.72+320)/30 = 545.81%.
Except that the brute damage cap is now 775% so the quad stack is capped.
20x(775%)/30 = 516.67%.

So even at the point where rage is contributing the least fraction of native damage boost possible triple stacking rage is still slightly better average DPS than double stacking. If you could quadruple stack you would see a drop in DPS but you hit the recharge cap before that happens.

Not being able to do anything significant for a quarter of the time has a far greater effect psychologically than it actually has to damage output. It isn't fun, but it is technically better DPS.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edana View Post
Not being able to do anything significant for a quarter of the time has a far greater effect psychologically than it actually has to damage output. It isn't fun, but it is technically better DPS.
In actual play, this isn't really accurate.

DPS is a great measure for opponents like AVs and Pylons, and I suppose some EBs. Nothing else actually lives long enough for sustained DPS to actually play a role against any specific target.

The build you mentioned above, SS/SD with saturated AAO, 1x Rage and high Fury will be one or two shotting anything that isn't a boss or higher.

On the other hand, having frequent rage crashes as you clear through pile after pile of enemies, will have a severe negative impact as you will find yourself ineffective at inopportune moments a lot more often.

It's more than just psychological, unless all you ever do is attack pylons alone.



Even against a pylon, I'm not so sure the calculations are as simple as you put above.

I'm not doubting that your calculations are accurate.

But the more rage crashes you have, the more periods of uninterrupted regeneration you grant to an AV or Pylon.

Here's the calculation from the Scrapper Pylon thread:

( 38343.75 / time ) + 127.8125 = DPS

Every time you grant 10s of uninterrupted regeneration to the pylon, it gets 1278.125 HPs back.



So wouldn't you need to calculate if the added DPS was enough to combat the negative effect of your opponents ability to regen freely during the crashes?


 

Posted

SS/SD even immediately after using rage and frenzy doesn't one shot anything above a monkey with an AoE and frenzy is the only way to hit the level of fury included in the build I was using.

Quote:
Every time you grant 10s of uninterrupted regeneration to the pylon, it gets 1278.125 HPs back.

So wouldn't you need to calculate if the added DPS was enough to combat the negative effect of your opponents ability to regen freely during the crashes?
No, since the calculation is an average over time including the crash. The AV/pylon regen isn't interruptable so it gains exactly the same amount in those 10 seconds regardless of whether you hit it or not.

The calculation is a simplification but if anything it underestimates the damage increase because it averages out the damage including the rage crash, ignoring powers with longer recharge times. For triple stacking it essentially assumes that every 4th shield charge does no damage where in reality if SC recharges during the crash you wait until afterward to use it.

You do find yourself ineffective more often but the increase in effectiveness between those times more than makes up for that loss. However it is important to note the actual increase. Even in a spherical frictionless vacuum.

No Rage : 100%
Single Rage : 180 x 110/120 = 165%, 65% increase over none; 100% recharge.
Double Rage : 260 x 50/60 = 217%, 52% increase over single; 300% recharge.
Triple Rage : 340 x 30/40 = 255%, 38% increase over double; 500% recharge.

The crash increasingly eats into the damage bonus, but you hit hardcaps on damage and recharge prior to reaching the balance point when the crash loss equals the gain over the rest of the cycle.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus View Post
But the more rage crashes you have, the more periods of uninterrupted regeneration you grant to an AV or Pylon.
True. If you are fighting against multiple spawns with occasional pauses in attacks, then the chance of the crash happening during one of those lulls increases. OTOH, they can still happen while you are fighting, while the Rage bonus is useless if you are not fighting. The more often the crashes, the more often they will come while you are actually fighting.

The fact that you are crashing more often in an increasingly smaller period of time is a big factor too, as Edana pointed out.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edana View Post
SS/SD even immediately after using rage and frenzy doesn't one shot anything above a monkey with an AoE and frenzy is the only way to hit the level of fury included in the build I was using.
Sorry when I said one or two-shot, I meant using either ST attacks, or a combo of ST + AoE attacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edana View Post
The calculation is a simplification but if anything it underestimates the damage increase because it averages out the damage including the rage crash, ignoring powers with longer recharge times. For triple stacking it essentially assumes that every 4th shield charge does no damage where in reality if SC recharges during the crash you wait until afterward to use it.
Triple stacking for SC is pointless.

With a double stack of rage, 75% fury and AAO saturated, you're at the near limit of bonus that SC can utilize.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Edana View Post
No Rage : 100%
Single Rage : 180 x 110/120 = 165%, 65% increase over none; 100% recharge.
Double Rage : 260 x 50/60 = 217%, 52% increase over single; 300% recharge.
Triple Rage : 340 x 30/40 = 255%, 38% increase over double; 500% recharge.
You're counting rages by itself, I think the overall increase is lessened when you take both fury & AAO into account.

Anecdotally, I can say that with a single stack of Rage, 75-80% fury and saturated AAO I get something like 299 per footstomp and with double stacked rage its around 330 ish.

If we were talking about a non SD Brute, or even more so a non SD Tanker, I think the stacking becomes more valuable.