Energy Aura fix for powerset proliferation
By
Chad Gulzow-Man,
Posted on: 2010-12-13 14:19 in Suggestions and Ideas
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they should make it worth taking for the ATs that already get it before they worry about porting it for tanks.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
Thoughts?
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=P
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I consider it a pretty good powerset already. Decent defense, 50% heal (and full recovery) every 30 seconds (not hard to get a group around you), some DDR and good endurance management. I can make that work. Throw in IOs, and you can do a lot with it. |
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
they should make it worth taking for the ATs that already get it before they worry about porting it for tanks.
=P |
Put tanker numbers behind it, and it's a very solid set.
Obviously, YMMV.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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Originally Posted by Rylas
I consider it a pretty good powerset already. Decent defense, 50% heal (and full recovery) every 30 seconds (not hard to get a group around you), some DDR and good endurance management. I can make that work. Throw in IOs, and you can do a lot with it.
Put tanker numbers behind it, and it's a very solid set. Obviously, YMMV. |
A 50% heal? Only if you have enough enemies in range. And my experience with Energy Aura is that it needs less than 30 seconds to go from full health to dead.
And frankly? The last thing it needs is MORE Endurance Management tools.
Energy Aura is my perfect example of a kludge (a clumsy and inefficient - but successful - solution to a problem.) That problem being that Ice Armor wouldn't work with the Fury mechanic at CoV's launch, so the needed an alternative ASAP. It started off as a kludge, and it is STILL a kludge. But it IS working, (however poorly) so they don't have to fix it.
Energy Aura's issues can be summed up as this:
1) It provides only a single form of damage mitigation, and it doesn't even excel at it.
2) It provides limited utility, and managed to be redundant at that.
3) It provides absolutely no form of offensive boost.
Energy Aura is a barely working set. It, quite frankly, can not stand on its own merits. Heavy investment in IOs can bring it up to some decent levels of performance, but that's not what the game is supposed to be balanced around, is it? With only SOs, it is a mighty squishy set, and one that can not stand without significant aid from its primary, and pools.
So, yeah. I've got to agree with Nethergoat - Fix Energy Aura for Brutes, before considering taking it to Scrappers and Tankers...
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
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My DM/EA has a different experience. Granted, having a particular primaries can change a lot of the performance, but that's true about any set. Any primary with a KD power will already be of great use to /EA. Also, knowing how to play the set to it's strengths help. |
Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
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A 50% heal? Only if you have enough enemies in range. And my experience with Energy Aura is that it needs less than 30 seconds to go from full health to dead. |
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And frankly? The last thing it needs is MORE Endurance Management tools. Energy Aura's issues can be summed up as this: 1) It provides only a single form of damage mitigation, and it doesn't even excel at it. 2) It provides limited utility, and managed to be redundant at that. 3) It provides absolutely no form of offensive boost. |
1. It does have more than just defense. It provides a heal, and has -end. Utilize them, they really do help. Also, EA can excel at defense. Three slot for defense on your toggles and CJ + Weave. This puts S/L at 34%, F/C at 36%, Eng at 39% and Neg at 30%. Hardly bad numbers for a brute. You may not want to take pool powers, but that's your choice. With inherent fitness, there's even less reason not to take those powers.
2 and 3. Utilities aren't very abundant in many sets. I wasn't aware it was the requirement for armor sets to supply them. It has more than some sets though, so I guess that should be enough. Also, while redundant, these utilities do offer a boost to sustained offensive output. You may consider the only worthy boost to be damage or recharge, but being able to continue fighting non-stop seems like a pretty good boost to me. I use it quite well to keep fury from dropping.
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| Energy Aura is a barely working set. It, quite frankly, can not stand on its own merits. Heavy investment in IOs can bring it up to some decent levels of performance, but that's not what the game is supposed to be balanced around, is it? With only SOs, it is a mighty squishy set, and one that can not stand without significant aid from its primary, and pools. |
Now, instead of just digging your heals into the ground and whining about the set, how about breaking out some numbers, making some constructive criticism and putting out some useful suggestions that the devs will be willing to take under consideration. If the set is as unplayable as you say, and you really want to see it "fixed," then that's what you need to do.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Good luck convincing some it's not "unplayable" - EM/EA was my first brute to 50, not long after COV came out. I enjoyed it, survived reasonably well, but try telling that to people here. (I still survive pretty well. *shrug* Don't run +4/x8, but I don't run that on anything.)
I tried pointing that out some time ago. You'd think I'd just suggested lumping the brute forum's mothers and sisters together in an adult movie or something.
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I took a stone/EA brute to the 40s during the early days of CoV and enjoyed the ride (of course, stone had some really nice synergy going for it).|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Good luck convincing some it's not "unplayable" - EM/EA was my first brute to 50, not long after COV came out. I enjoyed it, survived reasonably well, but try telling that to people here. (I still survive pretty well. *shrug* Don't run +4/x8, but I don't run that on anything.)
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I'm not saying it's unplayable, I'm saying it's weak and needs an update.
When there is no compelling reason to take a set and many reasons to choose something else, that set could use some work.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
I always thought EA was an interesting set. It's one of the only sets I have multiples of.
One other point regarding using its utilities to its advantage that was glossed over was the stealth. With the new Fury, on a Brute you don't really need to be attacked that much to top off your fury. Since enemies can't see me unless they're of a certain distance, you can indiscriminately and constantly attack anything. It makes for great offensive playstyle.
As for changes, I'd keep the fact that it's a Stalker set too in mind. Any issues the set has carries over to every AT and should reflect in what is decided. I can only assume changes to the set are needed if its performance is below standards and its utilities are outweighed by other sets. Some suggestions I made in before:
-If we need to improve the set's survivability:
--Could change Conserve Power into an Energize type power but instead of regen/heal, add +res with a longish (longer than Energize) duration. This'll make the set into a true hybrid defense/resist set with a bit of healing.-If we're balancing its utilities:
--Change Conserve Power into a toggle that has some Endurance Discount but flip-flop the values of Energy Drain. While CP is inactive, ED will have a minor heal and +25% End per target. While CP is active, ED will have a moderate heal and -5 END on self per target (for a maximum of minus 50 END). This makes the set into a true hybrid defense/healing set with a bit of resist.
--Add some debuffs to damage or recharge in ED. This makes the set into a hybrid defense/debuff set with some resists and healing
--Improve its draining capabilities in some way. Add -recovery or an END penalty on the foe.
--Turn Conserve Power into an energy version of Fiery Embrace (with some END discount).
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This.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Good luck convincing some it's not "unplayable" - EM/EA was my first brute to 50, not long after COV came out. I enjoyed it, survived reasonably well, but try telling that to people here. (I still survive pretty well. *shrug* Don't run +4/x8, but I don't run that on anything.)
I tried pointing that out some time ago. You'd think I'd just suggested lumping the brute forum's mothers and sisters together in an adult movie or something. |
I have a 50 /EA brute for every primary except Kinetic Melee. Wait, not true... my Claws/EA is only 43. I was compiling a large, end-all-be-all guide to Energy Aura; and then I realized nobody would read it, nobody would care, nobody would be helped.
The boards have effectively killed Energy Aura, merely by hearsay. Before IO's came out, my EM/EA could solo most AV/Heroes, as could my DM/EA. That's right, once I lrnd2play, my SO-only EA could do that. I still whine about it from time to time on my coalition channel when someone starts EA bashing, but... what can I do?
By the way, just to ruffle some feathers: I'd take EA over SR any day.
Back to the point:
A taunt aura would be nice. Replacing CP on brutes then porting it to scrappers and tankers sounds awesome. Or, dropping that idea, give Entropy Shield psionic defense; a constantly attacking tank should almost always be holding aggro; my DA/Stone tank has no taunt and the only aura she has is Op Gloom. I can still hold aggro with ease.
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END draining itself gets gutted so many times in this game. Elec. blasters secondary effect? END drain/END return. But you don't see much of either. (The only time I've seen it do much of anything is with a group of Elec. blasters some friends and I run on occasion.) |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
--Improve its draining capabilities in some way. Add -recovery or an END penalty on the foe.[/INDENT]
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Could have been useful in PVP - but it was neutered there as well, early on. Though /EA did have some nice built in TP Foe protection (for a while.) And I found it amusing to have my EM/EA brute cussed out as a "damn Stalker" more than once.
And of course mobs don't seem to care all that much about having their END drained, if you can't sustain it at 0. *shrug*
END drain in general needs looking at. But it *does* help my EA keep going.
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Gamers as a population don't need "the forums" to tell them what's strong and what's weak. An ATs forum reputation springs directly from performance, not vice versa. To generalize wildly, doms used to suck and nobody played them. They got flack on the forums because they had some very real problems. Changes were made, and now they're a reasonably popular AT. I had an ice/cold dom back in the old days that I liked fine- that didn't make the AT or the set 'good' in any objective way, I just wasn't especially bothered by its obvious shortcomings. I liked my EA brute the same way. I had fun with it while realizing it was not a strong performer.|
Originally Posted by RadDidIt
The boards have effectively killed Energy Aura, merely by hearsay.
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EA's got a couple of structural problems created by the evolution of the game since it was released.
One, stealth. So what, a few million inf or a few evenings running tip missions and any other brute gets the same utility. I don't have an EA brute any more, but all of my brutes have Stealth IOs of some flavor for judicious stealthing.
Two, the value of end management is depreciated by the IO system and to a lesser extent Inherent Stamina. Having a couple of 'big' powers dedicated to endurance is of much less use in a game where EVERYONE gets to 'skip' stamina and take other stuff.
The playerbase's lack of excitement for EA is totally understandable. If they want defense they go SR. The things that once differentiated EA aren't as valuable as they used to be.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I took a stone/EA brute to the 40s during the early days of CoV and enjoyed the ride (of course, stone had some really nice synergy going for it).
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
EA's got a couple of structural problems created by the evolution of the game since it was released.
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One, stealth. So what, a few million inf or a few evenings running tip missions and any other brute gets the same utility. I don't have an EA brute any more, but all of my brutes have Stealth IOs of some flavor for judicious stealthing. Two, the value of end management is depreciated by the IO system and to a lesser extent Inherent Stamina. Having a couple of 'big' powers dedicated to endurance is of much less use in a game where EVERYONE gets to 'skip' stamina and take other stuff. |
Lets not forget the fact that the defense from this stealth doesn't get a mention. Or that you don't have to waste inf on IOs or do tips to get this feature. New players/casual players get it out of the box, and that's a real feature for them. Also, it frees your slots from taking an IO you don't have to get.
Inherent Stamina isn't an end all to end management powers either. I seriously doubt that WP and Regen users have dropped QR from their characters. Stamina also doesn't drain end from foes. Stamina alone isn't always enough to keep going and going.
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| The playerbase's lack of excitement for EA is totally understandable. If they want defense they go SR. The things that once differentiated EA aren't as valuable as they used to be. |
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
On another thread in the Brute forum, someone mentioned making the heal more effective. One thing I haven't taken into consideration is the fact that one-on-one fights can be taxing if they take too long and your health runs low. So, I'm making an addendum to my suggestion:
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Conservation Aura: Like Conductive Aura, only instead of +regen/+recov for the user, it's an endurance discount per foe in range. You get a 5% discount for up to 10 foes in range (keep the -end on foe). The power gives the exact same effect as before, but now adds a benefit that makes it viable for tankers. This also means you don't need to make changes to Energy Cloak since you have a taunt to help keep aggro. Energy Drain: Front load the healing aspect of the power to be 25% for the first foe in range, and 3.5% for each of the other 9 foes (after 3 slotting heal)? This gives 56% total and allows for situations like boss fights and AV fights to be more manageable. |
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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They don't have to be bad, they just have to make it not as good as other stuff. |
Originally Posted by Rylas
So, from all you've said, it's enjoyable despite it's appearance of having flaws. Well, those flaws can't be so bad.
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It's great y'all think it's a bitchin' set that everybody should love, but they don't, and there's a reason they don't. I mean, beyond people saying mean things about it on the forums.....which has about as much impact on in-game performance as you saying nice things about it.
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| Wait, wait, wait. You want to use IOs as a reason of saying a set is broken? |
I'm saying it underperforms and needs an update to be competitive with other sets.
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| Therefore, Lightning Reflexes in ELA is now a non-feature. The regen from Stone's Rooted is meaningless. The Quick Recovery powers are laughable. Basically, every sets been negated by IOs if we follow this rational. It's an extremely flawed argument, and doesn't hold up. |
Regen is stackable to great effect.
Quick Recovery powers are indeed depreciated in the 'modern' game, as I mentioned in a thread about the sorry state of Regen a few days back.
With stealth, you're basically *buying the power* with a single IO. I have the same issue with /dev's Cloaking Device. It's "power" in the modern game is saving you a few million inf or a few tip missions- very underwhelming.
When you can buy a power replacement in IO form, then IMHO that power needs to be made more useful.
The addition of IOs significantly changed the game. Some sets need to be reconsidered in that light and EA is one of them.
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| Lets not forget the fact that the defense from this stealth doesn't get a mention. Or that you don't have to waste inf on IOs or do tips to get this feature. New players/casual players get it out of the box, and that's a real feature for them. Also, it frees your slots from taking an IO you don't have to get. |
I happily 'sacrifice' one slot and a few million inf for stealth on nearly all of my characters. It's incredibly handy, and used to be a good power choice for the sets that offered it.
Now anyone can do it. I'd like the sets affected by it to be compensated, because the value (perceived and otherwise) of those stealth powers has been depreciated.
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| Inherent Stamina isn't an end all to end management powers either. I seriously doubt that WP and Regen users have dropped QR from their characters. |
Formerly one benefit of ATs with stamina tools was that you could skip stamina, which freed up power choices. That was a not inconsiderable benefit, which is now available to *everyone in the game*.
It is no longer a selling point for EA (or other sets with similar utility), because anyone can do it.
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| Stamina also doesn't drain end from foes. Stamina alone isn't always enough to keep going and going. |
Huh.
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| Playerbase. Such a funny thing. People use it as an argument all the time, like they've data mined the playerbase and know what everyone thinks. |
What's yours, that people saying mean things on the forums scares away legions of players who WOULD love EA if only someone would let them try it?
Please.
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| A vocal, uninformed minority complaining about a powerset others can make work completely fine, is not the playerbase. If someone can make it work on SOs, then anyone can make it work with IOs (since you rely on IOs for you arguments). I'd rather go EA than SR, anytime. |
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Except you *don't* replace that power in IO form. Yes, the stealth IO is nice. However, it provides zero defense, you can't slot an IO with other IOs, and IIRC the values it gives aren't as good. |
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
With stealth, you're basically *buying the power* with a single IO. I have the same issue with /dev's Cloaking Device. It's "power" in the modern game is saving you a few million inf or a few tip missions- very underwhelming.
When you can buy a power replacement in IO form, then IMHO that power needs to be made more useful. |
It has its own advantages and disadvantages (primarily being able to stack with other stealth powers,) but while it's an *option* to use for stealth, it's certainly not a *replacement* for the actual stealth powers.
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The slotting is a genuine benefit- I ended up keeping Cloaking Device on my ar/dev because six-slotted Red Fortune had a part to play in getting me to the ranged defense cap.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Except you *don't* replace that power in IO form. Yes, the stealth IO is nice. However, it provides zero defense, you can't slot an IO with other IOs, and IIRC the values it gives aren't as good.
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Of course, 'set mule' isn't a fantastic selling point for a power either. =P
Looks like defense is 3.8 to all, which is nice assuming it doesn't suppress like CD. I realize that dribs and drabs like that can be important if you're working towards a defense cap, but it stills seems like weak tea when the primary function of the power is available for a few million inf or an evening's worth of missions.
And again, I'm not on any kind of EA pogrom here.
But the set underperforms and if it got some attention from the devs many more people would play it.
Fiery Aura is a good example of what a couple of relatively minor tweaks can do to seriously upgrade a lackluster set. I labored my way up to the mid-30s pre-buff- it was a concept character I really liked, although he wasn't 'good' by any objective measure. After the buff, I played him like crazy and he was 50 in no time, and he's still one of my most played characters....he's not all that much more powerful, but he's ten times as fun as he used to be.
I'd like to see something similar happen to EA.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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That's why I suggested an Endurance Penalty (a reverse Endurance Discount) applied to the enemy. Actually, I remember hearing Arcana mock up the idea but deemed it too powerful.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
END draining itself gets gutted so many times in this game. Elec. blasters secondary effect? END drain/END return. But you don't see much of either. (The only time I've seen it do much of anything is with a group of Elec. blasters some friends and I run on occasion.)
Could have been useful in PVP - but it was neutered there as well, early on. Though /EA did have some nice built in TP Foe protection (for a while.) And I found it amusing to have my EM/EA brute cussed out as a "damn Stalker" more than once. And of course mobs don't seem to care all that much about having their END drained, if you can't sustain it at 0. *shrug* END drain in general needs looking at. But it *does* help my EA keep going. |
It's even more potent than -recovery because the enemy AI wouldn't save their endurance for stronger attacks and instead use their weaker cheaper attacks which would cost more and burn through their blue. And with enough stacks, you could even make the cheapest of the enemies attacks to be too expensive even if they have a portion of their bar left. That combined with draining would be completely crippling.
...Yeah, I doubt improving the set's draining would fly...perhaps making ED radiate an ally +recovery around yourself, similar to SD's Grant Cover...I dunno, some added utility or team-friendliness wouldn't hurt and I don't think the set is in dire need of buffing...
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All true points. Save that - in my opinion - EA has no real strengths to play to.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
My DM/EA has a different experience. Granted, having a particular primaries can change a lot of the performance, but that's true about any set. Any primary with a KD power will already be of great use to /EA. Also, knowing how to play the set to it's strengths help.
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Still, Dark Melee works great with any defense based primary, and EA is no exception to that. Yes, sets like Super Strength and Stone Melee can give EA some more breathing room. But where other armor sets* eventually develop into into a set capable of standing on its own, without relying on additional mitigation from the melee set. Energy Aura never achieved that for me.
(* - Okay, I'll admit, EA's not alone in this distinction. Fiery Aura is in the same boat. But nobody take FA for its defense value... they take it to kill things faster.)
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Originally Posted by Rylas
Lets keep in mind that there is the "cottage rule" to follow. So you're not going to be able to change powers in the set completely. My suggestion keeps this in mind while providing additional mitigation in -end. You're welcome to make your own suggestions. I'll certainly hear them out more than you're willing to. As for the issues you've listed:
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Originally Posted by Rylas
1. It does have more than just defense. It provides a heal, and has -end. Utilize them, they really do help. Also, EA can excel at defense. Three slot for defense on your toggles and CJ + Weave. This puts S/L at 34%, F/C at 36%, Eng at 39% and Neg at 30%. Hardly bad numbers for a brute. You may not want to take pool powers, but that's your choice. With inherent fitness, there's even less reason not to take those powers.
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End draining the enemies does bupkis unless you can get them to zero. In its current form, EA can not do that. Thus, it is not an additional form of mitigation.
And yes, the raw defense numbers given are decent. That is undeniable. But when there is NOTHING backing that defense up, 'decent' doesn't cut it.
If it 'excelled' at the defense it provided, it would - at the very least - have more Defense Debuff Resistance. Instead, it has the same kind of DDR as Ice Armor or Invulnerability get, without the additional tools those sets have to handle a cascade failure.
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Originally Posted by Rylas
2 and 3. Utilities aren't very abundant in many sets. I wasn't aware it was the requirement for armor sets to supply them. It has more than some sets though, so I guess that should be enough. Also, while redundant, these utilities do offer a boost to sustained offensive output. You may consider the only worthy boost to be damage or recharge, but being able to continue fighting non-stop seems like a pretty good boost to me. I use it quite well to keep fury from dropping.
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The Endurance management, in its current state, is provided in redundant amounts. And it IS very sweet to just keep going and going... like a wreaking ball version of the Energizer Bunny. But that alone doesn't help too much. If you can't keep your Green Bar filled, than an unlimited Blue Bar is meaningless.
The stealth... I have many complaints about the stealth, but will freely admit that most of them are simply me. (Pss... Devs... if I wanted to ply my character's silhouette, I would have rolled a Stalker in the first place. You gave Dark Armor the ability to lessen the visible effects of their stealth, can't Energy Cloak get the same?) The only mechanical complaint I have is that... well, the Stealth isn't OPTIONAL. The defense numbers for the main toggles were all adjusted to compensate for the defense provided in the stealth... which means you need to run the stealth to get the kind of numbers that you are expecting.
And an offense boost can come in more forms than direct damage or recharge buffs. Invulnerability, for example, gets +To Hit through Invincibility. The only other set I know that does not provide SOME form of offense boost... is Regeneration.
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Originally Posted by Rylas
Yes, SOs are the balance. But it should be noted that to soft-cap /EA to the 6 damage types requires minimal slot investment, which actually gives it quite an advantage. Heavy investment is not required. Even so, it does stand on its own merits if you choose to play up its strengths and use the forms of mitigation it offers. Choosing a more "synergetic" primary will only boost that performance (which is true for all armor sets).
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Originally Posted by Rylas
Now, instead of just digging your heals into the ground and whining about the set, how about breaking out some numbers, making some constructive criticism and putting out some useful suggestions that the devs will be willing to take under consideration. If the set is as unplayable as you say, and you really want to see it "fixed," then that's what you need to do.
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My personal suggestions are to add +HP to Dampening Field, Slow and Endurance Drain resistance to Energy Protection, turn Conserve Power into an +Damage, +Recharge, Endurance Discount self buff click (basically a variation of Accelerate Metabolism, using an Endurance Discount instead of an Endurance Recovery boost.) Finally, I'd make Entropy Shield also be a Taunt aura, and have it inflict anyone within 8 feet with a To Hit debuff. To complete everything, have the taunt and to-hit debuff suppress while steathed, just like several Auras do for Stalkers.
There you go. Added Hit Points (which helps both the small heal, and natural regeneration) some additional debuff resistance, a source of additional offensive power - to aid in the 'kill it first' form of mitigation - and a taunt aura in a rather wasted space that provides a nice, complimentary debuff that would really improve the sets performance. All in a nice package that does not require people who like the set as is to change their play styles.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
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I remember that some time ago, there was a person in the brute forum who said that he/she was working on a comprehensive guide of EA discussing every primary power set. I guess it's probably you. I'm interested in it. So, at least one person in this world will read it. |
Originally Posted by RadDidIt
I have a 50 /EA brute for every primary except Kinetic Melee. Wait, not true... my Claws/EA is only 43. I was compiling a large, end-all-be-all guide to Energy Aura; and then I realized nobody would read it, nobody would care, nobody would be helped.
The boards have effectively killed Energy Aura, merely by hearsay. Before IO's came out, my EM/EA could solo most AV/Heroes, as could my DM/EA. That's right, once I lrnd2play, my SO-only EA could do that. I still whine about it from time to time on my coalition channel when someone starts EA bashing, but... what can I do? |
I wrote a guide on EA. There are a couple views everyday, which means it is probably not a popular guide. I won't blame the forum for badmouthing EA. Afterall, a defensive and stealthy power set does not click with the concept of brute for many players to start with. If you want to write a high impact guide that attract readers, the guide needs to be about a topic of broad interest. Obviously, EA won't quality for that. On the other hand, there are always some people who are interested in playing EA. Those people might not even post in the forum, but quietly browse the guides for information. If you don't mind writing a guide targeting a relatively small audience, a comprehensive guide on EA is definitely a great addition for the guide section in the brute forum.
Nice post OneWhoBinds- it echoes my experiences with EA exactly.
And you're spot on with the comparison to FA- the recent tweaks made it MUCH better at the 'killing things faster' part. If EA had a 'hook' like that they could buff it'd be more popular.
As a kind of weak hybrid of Electric and SR, it's just not that appealing.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Nethergoat, I get what you're trying to say. You feel compared to other sets, EA under-performs. I can see, at first glance, how that assumption can be made. The problem is, it can perform perfectly fine out of the box with SOs, it just requires different play. Sure, people flock to Shields and SR for most defense builds, because those powersets are more easy-mode. You're always going to have a more popular flavor of the month, it doesn't equate to a set being broken because it's not that FotM.
So for the sake of getting the set some proper attention, let's address the hard facts of it. Playerbase numbers aren't going to be it. After all, before they gave Invulnerable any of its latest buffs, the devs said that the set was the most played in melee ATs. Being the most played didn't mean it was beyond needing tweaks. So we can't argue the opposite.
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I'm glad you like stealth IOs. There's nothing wrong with them. They are not, however, a replacement for Energy Cloak or Cloak of Darkness. Powers that offer defense that stays on wether stealth is broken or not. Also, you keep your stealth up to a certain distance if memory serves me correct. Someone point me in the right direction if I'm wrong.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
With stealth, you're basically *buying the power* with a single IO. I have the same issue with /dev's Cloaking Device. It's "power" in the modern game is saving you a few million inf or a few tip missions- very underwhelming.
When you can buy a power replacement in IO form, then IMHO that power needs to be made more useful. The addition of IOs significantly changed the game. Some sets need to be reconsidered in that light and EA is one of them. A bit of defense for a defense set isn't much to sing about, neither is saving a very minor investment of inf or an evening of running tips. |
And that "bit" of defense is more than a bit. Considering people will spend large sums of inf to get an IO that offers less defense, Energy Cloak is offering a nice amount. For the set, EC is a must have for reaching great defense levels.
And it's not that I can't argue against the rest of your post, but OWB made better arguments (that I think you're trying to say as well) so I'm going to address those.
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Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
The heal is pathetic. In my experience, the heal manages to just cover the amount of damage you take while Energy Drain activates. You'd need to be near, if not at or past, the soft cap to actually get health back from that 'heal.'
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| End draining the enemies does bupkis unless you can get them to zero. In its current form, EA can not do that. Thus, it is not an additional form of mitigation. |
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And yes, the raw defense numbers given are decent. That is undeniable. But when there is NOTHING backing that defense up, 'decent' doesn't cut it. If it 'excelled' at the defense it provided, it would - at the very least - have more Defense Debuff Resistance. Instead, it has the same kind of DDR as Ice Armor or Invulnerability get, without the additional tools those sets have to handle a cascade failure. |
Like you said, with no blue bar to worry about, you become a wreaking ball. This is another form of mitigation in itself. The devs are all about give and take. If we start adding in debuff resistance of every kind and ask for +DMG and +Rech then we not only start stepping on the toes of other sets, but we'll have to take something away. Sustained endurance equates to sustained fury, which is sustained DPS. We just need to add a little more to make the fluctuation of the green bar more manageable.
EA as it stands is a hybrid of many armors. It has DA's stealth, ELA's end management, Ice's Def and DDR, and FA's heal (just modified). Tweaking the end management to include a -recovery and making tweaks to the heal so that it works fast and stronger should already do a lot towards survival. I think if you ask for more beyond that, you're just asking for too much. Granted, if the devs want to give it, I won't say no to it. But those other things aren't necessary.
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| Added Hit Points (which helps both the small heal, and natural regeneration) |
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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Again, I'm not saying it's "broken".|
Originally Posted by Rylas
Nethergoat, I get what you're trying to say. You feel compared to other sets, EA under-performs. I can see, at first glance, how that assumption can be made. The problem is, it can perform perfectly fine out of the box with SOs, it just requires different play. Sure, people flock to Shields and SR for most defense builds, because those powersets are more easy-mode. You're always going to have a more popular flavor of the month, it doesn't equate to a set being broken because it's not that FotM.
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It is demonstrably less poweful/useful/whatever than other available sets.
CAN it work? Sure! The game simply isn't that hard. I levelled my Regen scrapper up to Instant Healing in the old days when Regen gave you practically NOTHING before the glory that was toggled IH. So, sure, EA can 'work'. I got my guy to 40 mainly because Stone was a great set, not because EA did anything but let me steath newspapers.
It's 'selling points' are either redundant or depreciated in the modern era.
End drain? ELA does is way better, and is a resist based set on top of it.
Defense? SR does it better.
End recovery? Not the big deal it used to be.
EA isn't broken, it doesn't "suck" or whatever.
It *is* derivative, outdated and less appealing than pretty much all the other Brute sets. I'd like them to address that before any proliferation takes place.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I generally agree with the goat, but I can't see how any defense set compares less favorably to */Fire or */Electric. Perhaps with SOs, but with reasonable IO investment, */EA is more sturdy than either of these two. The ability to cheaply soft-cap SM, LE, EN reduces a significant amount of damage. The tiny heal on Energy Drain then becomes much more potent in context.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
EA isn't broken, it doesn't "suck" or whatever.
It *is* derivative, outdated and less appealing than pretty much all the other Brute sets. I'd like them to address that before any proliferation takes place. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I'd say replacing Conserve Power with something else entirely would be the best bet. What about a PBAoE that works like Siphon Speed+Siphon Power, but with the boosts only affecting the caster?
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
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<--- plays shield simply because shield charge amuses me. |
Originally Posted by Rylas
Sure, people flock to Shields and SR for most defense builds, because those powersets are more easy-mode.
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I've noticed a few threads over the past couple of weeks mentioning a desire for EA to be brought over for tanks. Thing is, a simple copy and paste port wouldn't work, since you have two problematic powers (Energy Cloak and Conserve Power) and the lack of a taunt aura.
EC is a stealth, which is not necessarily a bad thing, I suppose. After all, DA has it's cloak on tanks as well. But without a taunt aura, this could be a problem.
CP is a repeat power from an Epic pool. So it would have to be replaced.
My solution: Change Conserve Power into something akin to the Elec Control power Conductive Aura. Only instead of +regen/+recov for the user, it's an endurance discount per foe in range. You get a 5% discount for up to 10 foes in range (keep the -end on foe). The power gives the exact same effect as before, but now adds a benefit that makes it viable for tankers. You could just call it Conservation Aura. This also means you don't need to make changes to Energy Cloak since you have a taunt to help keep aggro.
It's arguable that having an endurance discount that could be running more often would be considered increasing the power's balance. Personally, on a set that's thematically driven to be about power conservation I see no issue with that. But, if it proves game breaking, one could just give a minor endurance cost increase to the toggles, or just reduce the -end cost per foe in range to something more like 3%.
Thoughts?
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.