Just a point:
Sprint detoggles Granite and Rooted, it doesn't combat the -runspeed. Same with Ninja Run/Super Speed.
I knew Ninja Run and Super Speed killed Rooted/Granite. I thought Sprint was OK.
It's been a LONG time since I was willing to subject myself to Stone Armor.
@Roderick
I'd suggest playing the set you're making suggestions on before you go making suggestions for it.
I'm perfectly happy with the way Stone Armor is right now personally and I've not used teleport inside granite for nearly a week (Why do I feel like I'm at an AA meeting telling people I'm sober?).
I've deleted a level 50 Stone/Stone brute. In fact, it was my first villain, second character, and second character to 50.
I used all my vetspecs, all three trial respecs, and every freespec for a year and a half, trying to make a build that compensated for the movement restrictions. I am NOT making suggestions for a powerset I've never played.
@Roderick
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Playing something a long time ago and playing it now after big changes makes big differences. Specially when things you're making suggestions for make no sense like using sprint in granite (This sends me a big red flag because anybody who has used granite for more than a week should know exactly how and how they can't begin to try to get around the handicaps). I'm not saying you're completely ignorant of the set, but you should play it again and get re familiarized with it so you can make more concise suggestions on how to change it.|
Originally Posted by Roderick
I've deleted a level 50 Stone/Stone brute. In fact, it was my first villain, second character, and second character to 50.
I used all my vetspecs, all three trial respecs, and every freespec for a year and a half, trying to make a build that compensated for the movement restrictions. I am NOT making suggestions for a powerset I've never played. |
Just my 2 cents, but I'm still going to disagree with removing the movement penalties no matter hw you try to justify it (most likely) so I'm just saying this for the sake of helping you convince other people :P
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Fixed that for ya.|
Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
Playing something a long time ago and playing it now after big changes makes big differences if the set has actually changed in any meaningful way, which it hasn't.
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Seriously, there are some people who will love the 'Granite Set' come rain or fire. That's fine and dandy, and I understand that. However, the changes suggested penalise no one, and make the set much more open to players for whome the current arbitrary restrictions (and, face it, they are) are simply too much to allow for enjoyment of the set.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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One suggestion or rather question I have is; Why is Brimstone Armour a resistance in a primarily Defence set? It makes no sense...
Other points, looking at Mids;
-Does Granite actually do -Damage anymore? Or is Mids just showing incorrect numbers temporarily? (Looks like it doesnt decrease damage below 100%, but negates Assault)
-Granite does -65% Recharge? I mean...really? Sure, thematically it sorta makes sense, but hows about, outside of set bonuses, having next to no attack chain. And not mentioning enemies that do -recharge? The game is meant to be balanced around SOs, not being IO slotted to the gills with + Recharge. I realise its meant to be a Godmode power, but why not, I dunno, a very very high end cost? Meh.
-Mud Pots costs how much to run? For the primary taunt aura, and one that does 1) Pathetic damage 2) Unreliable Immob 3)Ok, some slow, thats pretty lame, in my opinion.
If the only answer I get back is 'You should play the set to 50 first!' then how about the counterfoil; If a set is too frustrating for people to get higher than, say, teens/20s, maybe the set should be looked at a bit?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Yes, you are correct. It penalizes no one and makes an already strong set better. I don't agree with that.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Fixed that for ya.
Seriously, there are some people who will love the 'Granite Set' come rain or fire. That's fine and dandy, and I understand that. However, the changes suggested penalise no one, and make the set much more open to players for whome the current arbitrary restrictions (and, face it, they are) are simply too much to allow for enjoyment of the set. |
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No I completely agree with you that mud pots sucks. I've never liked it and it's a terrible aggro power in my play experience. I don't have end problems though.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
-Mud Pots costs how much to run? For the primary taunt aura, and one that does 1) Pathetic damage 2) Unreliable Immob 3)Ok, some slow, thats pretty lame, in my opinion.
If the only answer I get back is 'You should play the set to 50 first!' then how about the counterfoil; If a set is too frustrating for people to get higher than, say, teens/20s, maybe the set should be looked at a bit? |
And I see more and more stone armor characters these days, so I don't accept your counterfoil (In face I've seen at least 6 different stoners in the past week which surprised me because it's more than I've ever seen in the past)
Just ran a Stone Tanker through Mids.
I can see why people still run them. If you can last until level 34 on a Tanker, you basically become a walking monolith of Unkillableness. Maybe not utterly, sure. But damn close.
An IO'd Stone Tanker is just...it...ouch. Ye Gods. If you can slog through Hero Merits to get a ton of LotGs, you can just about negate the -Recharge, making Hasten have a point again.
I'd say, if anything, Stone was- No, Correction; Granite is too powerful. You 3 Res/3 Def that thing outta the box, and it doesnt matter about the penalities, your a tank.
Granite for a Brute, now, I have no idea about. But even so...the set seems very much a 'Dead or Invincible' candidate right now.
Brimstone Armour still cofuses me.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Nnn....no, it takes a set and removes a pointless, 'Difficulty through frustation' point. Making Teleport the only really viable for Stone without toggling and unttogling a lot isnt hard, a buff or a nerf. Its just irritating. Why should there be a risk of getting mezzed jsut to get over a six inch curb? That makes less than no sense at all. It's a blatant Jackanism.
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Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
Yes, you are correct. It penalizes no one and makes an already strong set better. I don't agree with that.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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It is what it is, and to remove it something else would have to be compromised. I'm not willing to make that sacrifice |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Nnn....no, it takes a set and removes a pointless, 'Difficulty through frustation' point. Making Teleport the only really viable for Stone without toggling and unttogling a lot isnt hard, a buff or a nerf. Its just irritating. Why should there be a risk of getting mezzed jsut to get over a six inch curb? That makes less than no sense at all. It's a blatant Jackanism.
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I didn't realise small QoL buffs instantly meant a nerf |
Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
It is what it is, and to remove it something else would have to be compromised. I'm not willing to make that sacrifice
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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ive never really had any issues with stone armor, while the movements and such are a little annoying, they really are not that big of a deal
the only things i could think of that would make the set better is removing the -rech penalty and changing rooted like roderick suggested (changing to have a grounded effect)
other than that the stone armor set isnt that bad
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It does when the set is "balance by annoyance" As people seem to enjoy phrasing here.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I didn't realise small QoL buffs instantly meant a nerf
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I always thought the -RCH, -DMG, ect ect...was because Granite was the one tier 9 power that could be used non-stop and without an END crash.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
One suggestion or rather question I have is; Why is Brimstone Armour a resistance in a primarily Defence set? It makes no sense...
Other points, looking at Mids; -Does Granite actually do -Damage anymore? Or is Mids just showing incorrect numbers temporarily? (Looks like it doesnt decrease damage below 100%, but negates Assault) -Granite does -65% Recharge? I mean...really? Sure, thematically it sorta makes sense, but hows about, outside of set bonuses, having next to no attack chain. And not mentioning enemies that do -recharge? The game is meant to be balanced around SOs, not being IO slotted to the gills with + Recharge. I realise its meant to be a Godmode power, but why not, I dunno, a very very high end cost? Meh. -Mud Pots costs how much to run? For the primary taunt aura, and one that does 1) Pathetic damage 2) Unreliable Immob 3)Ok, some slow, thats pretty lame, in my opinion. If the only answer I get back is 'You should play the set to 50 first!' then how about the counterfoil; If a set is too frustrating for people to get higher than, say, teens/20s, maybe the set should be looked at a bit? |
That said, I've made Stone Armor Tanks and Brutes on and off, and it's Rooted's penalties, that really bother me.
Rooted being a toggle that works like Grounded, would work well imo. You jump/fly you lose the benefits.
Get rid of the -SPD in Rooted, it just makes the set really unfun.
Now, I have played high level Stone Armors, Granite's -SPD didn't bother me, the -RCH didnt bother me (though a reduction in the penalty would be nice), but it's negative effects combined with Rooted annoyed me! *sigh*
Personally I never truely saw Stone Armor as a primary defense set, so Brimstone Armor being a Resist Power, instead of a Defense Power, never bothered me.
I actually like the way, the set it setup, it could just use some tweaks imo.
Rooted = Electric Armor's Grounded effect, lose the -SPD
Rock Armor = Add some S/L Resist (It would help the set for being outside of Granite more often).
Granite = Well personally, I'd prefere if they lost the minus jump (or if they could reduce it enough so I could hop when needed to), with a reduction in the other penalties.
I'm guessing the -DMG is part of the penalties for being able to be in an almost indestructible state 24/7, and while I find the power description logic of it ridiculous, I can at least see the game mechanic reasons for it.
The -RCH penalty doesn't have to be as much though, and still be noticable.
The -SPD not really a worry imo, if Rooted lost it's -SPD.
But in the end, losing the -jump in Granite, would be my prefered choice, but can they just give it a big enough -JUMP, to account for inherent Hurdle, but allow just a few +Jump set bonuses to make a difference? [I base this on the thought that Granite doesn't allow CJ, Sprint, ect ect to be toggled on while in use]
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Except that Granite and Rooted already have enough gameplay based, meaningful counters to their bonuses. The lack of jump for both of them and the crippling reduction in run speed is a letover fossil from the days when it was considered valid strategy to balance things by making them 'un fun'. Even if you took away the -jump on Rooted and Granite, even if it was just enough to jump half of a normal jump, and halve the run penalty divided evenly between Granite and Rooted...that would be enough. And, y'know what? It'd still be balanced*, it would simply be a QoL improvement.|
Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
It does when the set is "balance by annoyance" As people seem to enjoy phrasing here.
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*In comparison to what the set is already. Wether it is balanced overall and in comparison to other sets is a whole other thread.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Removing -fly might be abusable. You'd lose mez protection if a [not nice person] had Group Fly toggled.
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You know, I'm just gonna stop posting in these stone armor threads. They always go around in circles because there's always people who are fine with stone armor and there's always people who gripe about the speed and jump penalties. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Except that Granite and Rooted already have enough gameplay based, meaningful counters to their bonuses. The lack of jump for both of them and the crippling reduction in run speed is a letover fossil from the days when it was considered valid strategy to balance things by making them 'un fun'. Even if you took away the -jump on Rooted and Granite, even if it was just enough to jump half of a normal jump, and halve the run penalty divided evenly between Granite and Rooted...that would be enough. And, y'know what? It'd still be balanced*, it would simply be a QoL improvement.
*In comparison to what the set is already. Wether it is balanced overall and in comparison to other sets is a whole other thread. |
If they want to remove the penalties, fine. I do not agree with that because it would essentially put granite closer to the point of being just as effective at managing aggro, dealing damage, and chasing people down in PVP than they are currently. Adding the ability to jump, whether you see it or not, is a HUGE buff in many areas, as would be reducing the run speed debuff. I don't believe that could feasibly come without a nerf to rooted or granite in some other area, and losing the buff while in the air is really less than a slap on the wrist.
A lot of things would have to change for stone to change (without more drawbacks being added), and as I said before I would probably not be happy to make the sacrifice :P
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Why would you balance a PVE change over PVP issues? If that's such a big deal, then make the changes to the PVE version of the power, and leave the PVP version unchanged from its current version.|
Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
If they want to remove the penalties, fine. I do not agree with that because it would essentially put granite closer to the point of being just as effective at managing aggro, dealing damage, and chasing people down in PVP than they are currently.
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If you had stated from the beginning that your issues were PVP-based (which I had no way to know that they were), the discussion would likely have gone much differently.
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| Adding the ability to jump, whether you see it or not, is a HUGE buff in many areas |
@Roderick
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Only the last one was meant towards PVP but it also applies to PVE, having to chase down running mobs.|
Originally Posted by Roderick
Why would you balance a PVE change over PVP issues? If that's such a big deal, then make the changes to the PVE version of the power, and leave the PVP version unchanged from its current version.
If you had stated from the beginning that your issues were PVP-based (which I had no way to know that they were), the discussion would likely have gone much differently. |
And my issues were not PVP-based but they're also good points as well.
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This is what I'm getting at. I just think that the inability to jump over a 1" teeny tiny bump in geometry is a rediculous concept that belongs back in the Jackanist era of Cryptic running the show. Inability to jump at all isn't balancing anything; it's just a huge inconvenience.
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Originally Posted by Roderick
I do see it. That's why I suggested taking away all buffs from rooted while you're off the ground, and only allowing the granite-form to take tiny jumps; basically enough to get up a flight of stairs that's too steep to walk without jumping, or maybe to get through one of those Arachnos bases with the weird pit in the hallway that you HAVE to jump out of. I never asked for the ability to Super Jump around in granite form - I just want to be able to get to the other side of that fence without having to fall significantly behind the team, or take teleport. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Quote:
This.|
Originally Posted by Roderick
Why would you balance a PVE change over PVP issues? If that's such a big deal, then make the changes to the PVE version of the power, and leave the PVP version unchanged from its current version.
If you had stated from the beginning that your issues were PVP-based (which I had no way to know that they were), the discussion would likely have gone much differently. I do see it. That's why I suggested taking away all buffs from rooted while you're off the ground, and only allowing the granite-form to take tiny jumps; basically enough to get up a flight of stairs that's too steep to walk without jumping, or maybe to get through one of those Arachnos bases with the weird pit in the hallway that you HAVE to jump out of. I never asked for the ability to Super Jump around in granite form - I just want to be able to get to the other side of that fence without having to fall significantly behind the team, or take teleport. |
Taking the -SPD/-JUMP away from rooted, isn't an extreme buff, if when everytime you jump, you lose your mez protection
In fact, on some terrain, it might just be hazardous
And well worth it imo!
Giving Granite just enough jump height to make it over a bump, would still mean granite + rooted, loses the rooted effect, every time the granite using tanker jumped.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Most on the people I know who don't like playing Stone Armor (including myself) dislike it for the restrictive movement penalties in Rooted and Granite. They make sense, but they make it very difficult to maneuver a Stone tank or brute without Teleport, and, as the recent Fitness change shows, the devs don't like shoehorning people into "Mandatory" pool selections.
First off, the -runspeed in both is fine. We have ways to offset this: Sprint, Swift, set bonuses, teaming with a kin or rad.
Rooted: Remove the fly and jump penalties. Change the power so that, like Grounded in Electric Armor, the bonuses from the power only apply while on or near the ground. Remove the exclusivity with Fly and Jump powers.
Granite: Leave the -fly as it is, but change the jump to a reduced jump cap so that you can still jump, just not very high. Keep granite exclusive with Fly and Jump powers - if you want FAST movement, you still need to drop granite.
With these changes, a Stone Armor character can still get around the battlefield without feeling like they're being forced to be a porter, but still keeps the movement restrictions that the set is balanced around.
@Roderick