Loot Distribution, more equity possible?

Hi:

I am sure with the advent of shards, all of us are becoming increasingly more observant on how drops are being handed out. With the so called, random number generator at times we are very lucky and other times luck seems to have missed our address all together.

Last night I did a Tin-Mage TF, all I got was 1 shard drop for the entire thing, plus the end of mission rewards. That was a dismal drop rate for such a mission!

As I did in other TFs such as LGTF, ITF, etc. The group's players announced when they got a shard. Quickly it became obvious the RNG was wack, for certain players continued getting the drops at a rate that made the rest of us sick. I recall in one ITF a player walked away with 14 shards, very lucky indeed, but in the very same group a player received none, while most others only got one or two as well for the entire TF.

It seems to me, random is nice, but to an extent it is not quite fair either; especially when a player gets 14 drops and another who worked just as hard got nothing.

So perhaps this thread can be used to explore other ways the game could appoint drops or loot to players in a more equitable manner.

To start things off, I am going to describe a way Dark Age of Camelot does it:

DAOC has two set ways the Group Leader can actually set it up, and the other players see the setting the GL took.

1st setting: GL gets all loot/drops. This takes a lot of trust in GL, but if you are in an SG and its an SG event, then it should be the very best way to go. Essentially the GL gets all the loot and after the mission or at break points, the GL distributes the loot. In the case of shards, at the end of the mission if the total drop was 16 shards and you had 8 players, then the GL could distribute 2 shards to each player. Equitable, but highly dependent on GL honesty. One thing DAOC does that CoH does not do, is the game does tell other players what other players received; if this was to be implemented, it may be a very good thing to know what the GL is picking up as the team goes.

2nd setting: Random. This random is not totally random in the full sense of the word. The way it works the game randomly selects who gets the drop from say the 8 players, once that player has been awarded a prize, that player can not receive a second one until the other 7 has received a prize as well. Once all 8 have received their price, it is random once more who gets the next prize across all 8. This method, does not require trust in GL and does evenly distribute drops across players.

If you all have any ideas on how CoX can be more even handed in distributing drops, please post them here.

Thank you

Stormy

Completely random is also completely fair in the long run. Sure, you might run into patches of bad luck, but you'll also run into patches of equally good luck.

I'm starting to believe the RNG is also not completly random. I needed 8 shards last night to get my Uncommon slot.
I did the entirety of Black Scorpions second arc with a friend. I got the last shard on the very last mission.
What did he get? Shards galore, a LotG +Recharge and two, count them TWO Purples. TWO! I've had three in my entire time in game!

I'd swear something is outta whack here...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I think some of you are missing the point, I am trying to make...

I don't believe luck should play such a large roll in personal rewards for conducting an operation, its like you are saying, work this week, then you got unlucky; so you are "not" getting a paycheck this week, you see its random, but eventually you are going to get a double check, and it will work out in the long run, but go on working today and tomorrow, really, its gonna work out...

When folks do TFs nowdays is for Shards, I seriously doubt the concept that maybe several weeks from now, they are going to finally get all of them to be acceptable.

And even though that allegedly all have the same chance to get an award, thus its fair an equal; is not really quite right. How many times in paper we go "it should work" and in reality we get a catastrophe?

If the so call random number generator is working so good, how come it has such a bias? I don't believe it "eventually" working out, if ever, in a few weeks is proof the randomness is working right. The proof-of-the-pudding if its truly random, a fair distribution should be the norm not the exception over a relatively nominal amount of time. While not possible in one draw to establish a track, it better have a reasonable distribution within say ten minutes? If one can not have an even distribution reached randomly in a reasonable amount of time, then truthfully the random generator is broken.

Frankly, there should be no cases, where a player, in an hours time, gains 14 drops and another in the same team gets none, no matter how you color it, that is simply "wrong"; and needs fixing. I frankly challenge the randomness in such a process, while such an event could statistically happen, it should be incredibly rare, which many of us can agree this is happening more often than not. The norm should be all get the same number of rewards, with a few deviations with some getting a bit more, but really 5 or 6 to none?

With regards to the enventually you get lucky, that is simple hog-wash, it does not happen either. Just like a poster above, I seldom if ever get purple drops, in my entire time playing CoX, and I play daily for at least 4 hours each day, I have only gotten 7 Purples total, and I mean total! I have friends who gets that as matter of course in a week! And don't play any longer than I do, and the real kicker is he has done it with me in his team in 3 two hour sessions! Just to prove to me he can! How is that for pleasant equity?

All I am asking is for a leveling of the so called luck, frankly it is not needed to have some players hoarding the loot because they are "lucky" while others experience famine because they are "unlucky", if we are a team, should we not be getting drops as a team?

Hugs

Stormy

Please prove that there is bias in the current system. Until you do that, I see no reason to change it.

Stormy

Don't know how to say but you have no clue what you are talking about. You say on one hand that there should be no cases, yet then that it is statistically possible. That is called a normal distribution curve. Try googling bell shaped curve and learn about the extremes.

Seriously, go back to that player and get him to the number of 14 shards nights he has. If it is constant, proof of a problem. Otherwise he got a lucky night.

And to echo Aett, bring in real numbers and data, like running a dozen ITFs and showing the drop rates and min/max numbers. Then there can a discussions of trends and such. An N of 1 shows nothing.

Like death, a truly random number generator is completely fair, especially over the long run. That you feel otherwise suggests to me that you are suffering from perceptual bias, a run of bad luck, or perhaps just simple greed.

If Paragon's RNG is not truly random, that's a matter for their programmers to resolve. But I suspect that it is, at least to a reasonable approximation, and you're just unhappy because you aren't able to tilt those odds in your favor.

My Lady Loot is a fickle and mercurial mistress. She spread her favors in ways only she understands. We must trust in her judgment. I too, one of her priests had doubts.

My BS/Regen seemed to be forsaken by my lady. My first ITF post-19 I received one shard for the whole TF. My spiritual common was not an easy task. In addition, rolling two Hero merits netted me little of interest. Despondent, I recalled some of the sage advice given above. That sometimes my lady scorns you, but trust in her and she'll do you right.

This weekend another ITF netted me ten shards and my last two Hero merit rolls earned me THREE specific recipes (Obliterations) that I sought PLUS a LoTG and a Numina +Regen/+Recovery. I was all set to simply purchase one of the Obliterations, but I kept my faith and was rewarded. So can it be with you.

The thing is, the devs have already done what the OP wants them to do by setting up TFs with specific component rewards. Those TFs are the primary, sure-fire way to get components.

To avoid forcing players to play certain content, however, the devs also provided a mechanism for crafting those components from random drops obtainable anywhere. In my experience the TFs are much faster for getting what you want than depending on random drops -- with the right team you can get everything you need in three or four hours, not counting shard drops.

TF/SF rewards are intended to be the meat and potatoes source of components. Random drops are just frosting on the cake, an alternate method for players who aren't able to participate in TFs/SFs (and ship raids).

I'm someone who doesn't really like the whole TF/SF vibe (because of the setup time and the farms that most TFs have devolved into), but I acknowledge that the devs have designed it this way and it's working the way they intended. It's therefore not a bug that random drops are random and unreliable, it's really a statement about where the devs believe you should be devoting your time. They apparently think you should be running TFs and raids to get your components in a timely fashion.

Sods law.
Sods law is to blame for pretty much anything RNG related in this game.
What did I want last night? Incarnate Shards. Did I get them? Not on your bleeding nelly. I only just managed to scrape the 8 I needed by the end of the entire of Scorpions second arc, completing the Destiny arc. The guy on my team got a Purple and a LotG + Recharge, plus shards.
Tonight? Cold Demons. Hordelings, to be exact, on Caps north coast. Do they spawn often? Pffft, get away. Archers, Spectral followers and ghost knights up the wazzoo! You don't want Hordelings mate, naaah, course ya don't!

And to top it off? Deathsurge spawns, at long last.
And is unfindable. PRobably glitched into a building or a hole in the map. The last. Damn. Badge. I needed for Headline Stealer.

I'm going to make him pay for this. With freaking LASERS!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Mmm...

Darkgob, please read my entire post, you focused and fired away on a portion of the post. I simply reported on what DAOC does. If you read a few lines below, which you failed (in purpose?) to post, I clearly state the first ability is not a good way to go.

Other posters question bias on the loot ditribution...

Well why not do a TF and see how the loot was distributed, an entire Tf is pretty lengthy, takes a couple of hours if you do a kill all. Now since there was lots of loot, and shard drops, one would expect the loot distribution to be somewhat even among all the players or at least within a one standard deviation. With that in mind, why not ask other players ow many shards they each received? Did the numbers were faily close, or did you notice some extremes?

Now one could argue, that it was really random and the generator is not getting stuck or whatever, and thus the odd distribution is fine, after all it was a single set of two hours of draws we conducted. So do a second TF preferably the same one and kill them all! Did we at last get a near uniform distribution of goodies? or at least within one standard deviation?

One could argue, well its just sample #2, and thus if the distribution is odd, its ok, it was random after all, right?

In the past few weeks, I done dozens of TFs a week, and I am still waiting for my streak of good luck to happen. So after about 96 hours of TF playing, I have not experienced a "lucky" streak, heck I have not experienced a not unlucky streak either, nor I have seen any uniformity of drops, there is always the player who got zip, or one, while another got in excess of 8 for the TF. You all may argue that is fair, since all have the same chance in paper for the drop, my argument if we all have the same chance, how come over 2 hours hours we do not all have roughly the same amount of drops?

Stormy