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I really think you shouldn't add words to anything I have said. I had not mentioned GWs heal or Statesmans KoB. I was unspecific as I like to be. The powers you mention are negatable without -range in taunt.|
Originally Posted by Ribic
Its extremely simple. It was never not simple. I was asking how, in certain situations, a particular effect YOU had brought to the conversation (-Range) had an affect. The answer isn't that -Range has any affect on GW's AoE heal, or LR's KO Blow. The answer is, in certain very specific cases that particular effect (in combination with others, say -fly for example) can be used to keep AV's at range while not allowing them to fire back. I've known that was the answer the entire time, I was trying to get you to admit that you were, at best, being disingenuous. Or at the very least that you were discussing something that required more than simply -range.
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I think you take my words and assume you have understood them right when you haven't. I believe this as you are being a disrespectful and scornful a fellow. Which is fine by me.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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So have many other people. I thought many people back in the day started to IO set with PvP in mind. Lets take a Stormie with their snowstorm. To my mind they are just as useful on a STF as they always were pre -range in taunt no matter what trick ya can pull with them. Tankers don't need any AT in the team and neither does any AT need a Tanker.
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Originally Posted by Ribic
I'm also the guy who has a secondary build for most of his tanks running SOs only, because sometimes this game is just too damn easy.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Originally Posted by Ribic
As for the AI glitch, yeah, I'm expecting a fix fairly soon, as I was able to tank him for well over 10 min on my Ice/Storm 'troller using snowstorm and fly. He never even took a shot at me after the initial volley.
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Going back to this comment Ribic. You fail to tank him. You fail to tank him when he decides that your threat level is lower than somebody elses. Which is easy. I can with any of my tankers steal aggro off of anybodies stormie.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Yes, I fail. my team succeeded even though our tanks could not handle the agro and would not listen to ideas regarding alternative methods, but I failed. OK. You win.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Going back to this comment Ribic. You fail to tank him. You fail to tank him when he decides that your threat level is lower than somebody elses. Which is easy. I can with any of my tankers steal aggro off of anybodies stormie.
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OK, you're absolutely right. How dare my limited intelligence even dream of attempting to decipher your cryptic comments...|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I really think you shouldn't add words to anything I have said. I had not mentioned GWs heal or Statesmans KoB. I was unspecific as I like to be. The powers you mention are negatable without -range in taunt.
I think you take my words and assume you have understood them right when you haven't. I believe this as you are being a disrespectful and scornful a fellow. Which is fine by me. |
Please. I brought those up as direct questions to you. You quoted a portion of my question, intentionally ignoring the crux of the questions "as you like to be". I continued reiterating my question and you continued to clumsily "dance" around the issue.
I have understood every single word you have typed. You just like to assume I don't. I have never come across someone whose typed words carried such an air of superiority.
I don't even care anymore. Having an intelligent conversation with you is obviously something of which you have dained me undeserving.
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You've been disdainful too early in your questioning, first you used caps reiterating a point you felt needed to be there that didn't when I was replying to Smersh and Smersh alone. My reply had nothing to do with what you or anyone else had previously said. For me the thread was not about you and what you said, plus it provided me with nothing new.|
Originally Posted by Ribic
OK, you're absolutely right. How dare my limited intelligence even dream of attempting to decipher your cryptic comments...
Please. I brought those up as direct questions to you. You quoted a portion of my question, intentionally ignoring the crux of the questions "as you like to be". I continued reiterating my question and you continued to clumsily "dance" around the issue. I have understood every single word you have typed. You just like to assume I don't. I have never come across someone whose typed words carried such an air of superiority. I don't even care anymore. Having an intelligent conversation with you is obviously something of which you have dained me undeserving. |
Now early on when people were getting Emps over a stormie it puzzled me, that tankers weren't making use of the -range of hurricane. Later it would of puzzled me that tankers weren't making use of snowstorms -fly as I have as a scrapper made use of air sup or peacebringers melee attacks human form. Initially though what was puzzling me is why the -range wasnt made use of.
Up to this point I have been innocently telling the truth as I just see it as being enough and you say I am being disengenuous. In the past before the -fly from snowstorm trick was a known option, -range from hurricane + snowstorms -fly was always an option.
I actually didn't elude anything really.
I was able to tank the STF without a single def or controller in the team long time ago. Years ago, when some people were telling me taunt was useless and dying on the STF, needing 7 defenders etc. If other peoples couldn't thats down to them and their time playing. Some people like the true warrior thing, some people will kite, I will use whatever just so happens to exist power wise in the pug. You haven't come to the tanker section and made storms any more desirable.
I have 4 stormies including Ice/Storm, their nice, they offer good effects, can be pleasant to tank for, a Storm def is as good as any. Always was for me since 2006.
Given a stormie I'd prefer the designed method, that could be required on Praetorians.
You have a superiority complex, take it elsewhere.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Ribic, I think what New Dawn is getting at is that the OP has a tank that can avoid physical attacks with hover which leaves the endurance draining ranged attack. The minus range in taunt can help beat this with the adjustment of some slots.
The point about minus range from a stormy was that storm could help keep the tank from being hit also, you did not just need a healer. At least that is the way I understood it.
It seemed your points were mostly why and how other AT's could tank LR... and that was with a ranged toggle. So I guess your suggestion for the OP is to go to the red side and pick up a ranged toggle from the Patron pool?
It's cool other AT's can tank via a terrible program error, but the point about the threat multiplier was it's good it worked but if LR runs through a aura that causes more threat, a cone or an aoe that causes more threat, or just an accidental auto or tab and target especially from a tank with high threat multiplier he will stop running up walls. Tanking with a tank is not the only option plenty of timed this tf has been beaten without a tank, but this being a tank question for a primary that has no endurance drain protection and has fly removing excess damage resistance slotting and adding them to an auto hit -range is a good idea that may help the OP.
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The point is: the -Range is not what makes hover tanking Recluse possible. You can do it without -Range just fine. |
Originally Posted by Dissolution
Ribic, I think what New Dawn is getting at is that the OP has a tank that can avoid physical attacks with hover which leaves the endurance draining ranged attack. The minus range in taunt can help beat this with the adjustment of some slots.
The point about minus range from a stormy was that storm could help keep the tank from being hit also, you did not just need a healer. At least that is the way I understood it. |
Smersh suggested they would eliminate the tactic by making Recluse immune to range debuffing.
Ribic stated it would make no difference because the -Range was not the key to the trick.
New Dawn then stated, "Remember when -range was added to taunt and it was on test? I was against the change in PvE then, gave the very obvious reason and mentioned so on the European forums...."
Ribic then reiterated that -Range was NOT the issue.
New Dawn continued to insist that "The issue is with AVs and their resistance to -range."
-Range can be useful, but you can hover tank Recluse without it. The issue is that Recluse is not smart enough to ignore an enemy he cannot attack. Rather than continually jump at a target he cannot reach, or stand still staring at a target he cannot attack, he should wise up and either punch the stormy right next to him or go kill some people attacking his precious web device. It is an AI issue, not a -range issue.
It is one thing when he is attacking someone who is threatening him and his device. It is a bit different when he is not attacking. At least to me.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Correct, but how does the OP do this? Without a ranged toggle at that position is LR going to remain attracted to a tank? Is the threat duration going last if LR takes a different route to the top (I have noticed "slips" making LR "recalculating route".
So is the trick even valid to the OP unless he switches sides gets a toggle and returns to blue?
It is understood you don't need -range but you do need to apply threat greater than that of the heroes around LR destroying his towers. So this trick can be manipulated with a constant threat by a tank with no toggle by the use of taunt and -range. You are correct it's not needed for any toon with a ranged toggle and maybe if everything times out correct just a ranged attack as LR gets pulled back... but just as -range is not needed neither is the other. New Dawns point of auto hit in taunt makes it more reliable than relying on a ranged attack for threat also.
Again you are right it is an AI issue. But the issue is for an Invul/ tank, without a ranged toggle, and taunt is much more reliable than attacks outside of autohit toggles.
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But the -range is not the important aspect, rather the threat generation is. Auto-hit is good. Threat generation is good. -Range is helpful, but not vital; at least I do not think it is; am I mistaken? If they make Recluse immune to -Range, will this tactic no longer work for a taunting tanker?
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Originally Posted by Dissolution
New Dawns point of auto hit in taunt makes it more reliable than relying on a ranged attack for threat also.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Strato, you are right if the duration of the taunt will hold the entire time it takes LR to climb back up to get taunted again.
This tactic works apparently with the ranged toggle because it remains on which keeps threat on. The blaster in the blaster forums... it worked because in part boost range allowed the blaster to continue to hit LR while at the top of his climb and on the ground after the rebound.
So... if the threat remains yes you are right. If it does not no it will not work without minus range because the only way to get LR to not attack will be to reduce his range at a lower altitude.
If I'm working the numbers correctly Taunt should last (unslotted) a smidgen less than 20 seconds on a +4 AV. Slotting for duration you should get that into the 30-40 second range so as fast as he runs around until the blue tower drops the AI exploit of using the TP tether should work.
I've never used this method myself, I've always faced him in melee with my tankers and come up with tactics to accomplish this and survive. Still, Taunt's duration should be sufficient particularly with some slotting; and the taunt IO sets are too good and too cheap to leave out of a build.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
I have used this tactic myself...
Hovering near one of the arches above the doors to the Arachnos Tower, but far enough for LR to TP-snap back after leaping up there, one can continuously taunt and LR will keep looping around and around while the towers are dropping from the other team members.
Perfect Zinger 6-slotted in Taunt is just fine (and that teeny, tiny chance for damage for SOME reason gives me joy every time I see the little orange numbers float upward on the screen), and you should have no problem.
It is a cheesy way to do it; not nearly as "tank-like" as planting yourself between the towers and grunting at LR all the while driving your fist into the palm of your other hand with an alarming monotony, but it works.
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The use of -range is to immunize the tanker from return fire. Without the -range, Recluse can use his ranged attack chain with impunity. A taunt moderately slotted for range, in combination with the -range, allows a hovering tanker to negate all of Recluse's attacks. If Recluse was made immune to -range, the tanker would still be able to hover and taunt, but would be subjected to return fire. (This relative impunity to Recluse's damage is likely not intended, and why I suspect the -range portion of taunt may be nerfed. It only applies to the hover-tanking tactic.)|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
But the -range is not the important aspect, rather the threat generation is. Auto-hit is good. Threat generation is good. -Range is helpful, but not vital; at least I do not think it is; am I mistaken? If they make Recluse immune to -Range, will this tactic no longer work for a taunting tanker?
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That particular tactic has nothing to do with exploiting Recluse's tether, it's all about avoiding damage.
Use of a toggle debuff is outside my experience and expertise - I can only speculate.
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
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Originally Posted by Smersh
The use of -range is to immunize the tanker from return fire. Without the -range, Recluse can use his ranged attack chain with impunity. A taunt moderately slotted for range, in combination with the -range, allows a hovering tanker to negate all of Recluse's attacks. If Recluse was made immune to -range, the tanker would still be able to hover and taunt, but would be subjected to return fire. (This relative impunity to Recluse's damage is likely not intended, and why I suspect the -range portion of taunt may be nerfed. It only applies to the hover-tanking tactic.)
That particular tactic has nothing to do with exploiting Recluse's tether, it's all about avoiding damage. Use of a toggle debuff is outside my experience and expertise - I can only speculate. |
First off I would like to thank Strato, that was exactly my point all along. Not that one method was invalid, but that the -range was completely unnecessary for this particular instance. If the tank is hovering in the right spot (between the two pilars, even with the height of those tall windows) the -range never comes into play as LR never gets a chance to fire. My point about the toggle debuff was not that acquiring one was what the op should/needed/would want to do, but that if any toon could hover tank it without the benefit of -range, then any tank could as well. Simply set taunt to auto and it will fire when he's close enough (every 5 seconds or so) then he gets tp'd back to the ground and climbs again. The -Range is irrelevant, period.
Can the -range be useful? Certainly. Does this method change if they make LR immune to it? Not in the slightest.
That's all I'm trying to say.
My initial thought was incomplete as I did not completely place the taunting tank and the duration at its correct place. It appears that -recharge is irrelevant because the duration will sustain at the rebound point.
Let's hope they (des) figure this out soon.
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OK then of said it, the questions you were asking me looked like questions without you needing to of been trying to say stuff that concerns other ATs. I'd of talked about other ATs in their respective sections, more than one AT in its archetype and powerset section. My reply to Smersh was not to you, the thread wasn't about you and your points. You asked me questions I gave fair answers and you proceeded to try and associate them with your points which actually make no difference to the fact that, LR can be neutralized differently. No one should be begging for a stormie to join a team when Tankers have it all in the box to not care what their teaming with.
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Originally Posted by Ribic
First off I would like to thank Strato, that was exactly my point all along. Not that one method was invalid, but that the -range was completely unnecessary for this particular instance. If the tank is hovering in the right spot (between the two pilars, even with the height of those tall windows) the -range never comes into play as LR never gets a chance to fire. My point about the toggle debuff was not that acquiring one was what the op should/needed/would want to do, but that if any toon could hover tank it without the benefit of -range, then any tank could as well. Simply set taunt to auto and it will fire when he's close enough (every 5 seconds or so) then he gets tp'd back to the ground and climbs again. The -Range is irrelevant, period.
Can the -range be useful? Certainly. Does this method change if they make LR immune to it? Not in the slightest. That's all I'm trying to say. |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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If Lord Recluse were immune to -range there is still more than another way to neutralize him. As what other ways were mentioned if you were to have 4 range slots and 2 taunt slots, you could do it from 114ft in the air. Lord Recluses max range is 110ft. Careful though the Banes he spawns have a -fly power of greater range the further away you are the less threat you deliver.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
But the -range is not the important aspect, rather the threat generation is. Auto-hit is good. Threat generation is good. -Range is helpful, but not vital; at least I do not think it is; am I mistaken? If they make Recluse immune to -Range, will this tactic no longer work for a taunting tanker?
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Where -range is helpful is in that the closer you are the more threat you have. So if the team were wailing on Lord Recluse it becomes harder for someone else threat level to be higher than yours and so you keep aggro. Stormies won't necessarily keep aggro whilst a team is wailing on Recluse.
For the sake of higher threat level the closer you are the better. Threat is modified by range.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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You know I have noticed this as well. He uses his end drain attack a lot now.
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Originally Posted by Brakner
I have done the STF with my Fire/Fire many many times and can tell you they stealth fixed/changed him recently. He never use to use his ranged attack ( the one that causes massive end drain ) in melee so often. He now uses it in his melee attack chain every time it is up which causes toggle loss then death.
I don't know if these are the same changes that they put in for i18 that makes MM pets rush into melee and use range attacks, but it does seem similar. p.s Its not you, its him, keep your build. I have seen a well built WP and Ice also get toasted by him recently so as Dechs says take cold shield, bubbles and purples till the blue tower is down. |
Note that I did not make any such claims about Ghost Widow. Though, of course, a Ghost Widow who is locked onto a tanker that cannot reach that tanker with her AoE heal is limited to her ranged attacks and won't fire off that AoE heal, that's more a function of immobilizes than -range.
You're taking another tactic that was used and holding it up. That's fine, it is another tactic that can be used in the game. It could just as easily be used by a tanker with Darkest Night. The existence of another tactic does not invalidate the tactic that was described. And the use of -range and fly seems, to my mind, less exploitative than using Recluse's teleport tether that keeps him in range of his towers.
As for using the teleport tether, yes I agree that hovertanking is less exploitative.
I wasn't saying you HAD to use a toggle debuff, I was saying using taunt was not a requirement for hover tanking him, there are other methods. It doesn't invalidate the use of taunt, it just proves that taunt = about a million other ways to skin the same cat. Not a single one being better or worse than another.
The hovertank method can be performed by ANY AT at ANY time, at that point it's not tanking, hell, if you're going to do that then why bring a tank? They'll just slow you down.
If you want to go that route, it's fine, I don't have to like it. I want a challenge (or at least the mathematical possibility of one) I'm also the guy who has a secondary build for most of his tanks running SOs only, because sometimes this game is just too damn easy.