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Originally Posted by dave_p
Toe-to-toe, Elec should be very good too, though my own Elec/Elec is still in his 30s, but I've seen good success by other Elec tanks. Capped en resists, easy enough to cap S/L as well (IOs, oranges, Alpha slotting), can IO your way to a high def, and excellent end drain resists. Sub-par heal, but better than nothing.
Fully IO'ed up, I would think the best tanks in order would be Stone, Invul, then Elec. Granite is by far still the best for getting in his face--I used just a handful of insps, mostly as a precaution (1 purp, 1 orange while the red tower is up), on my last dance w/LR, and I actually only *needed* a couple of medium blues, cuz his end drain was still getting past Rooted for a decent dent. Anyone can hover tank him w/relative ease. I suspect they're going to fix that soon though. |
Having tanked him this week with my Elec/Elec tank (softcapped to S/L), and numerous time with my invuln (SC to all but psi) I can say Elec can outperform invuln in this case. With the blue tower up I need an extra purple for the energy ranged attack he uses in melee, but when damage gets through it hurts MUCH less, and I only need small oranges (for the last 10% S/L). The heal isn't great, but I've found it to be more useful than dull pain in this instance. The only bad thing about his ranged energy attack...? the KB, as it knocks me back through Grounded + a KB IO (I hate getting KB'd while using T-Strike, so I put an IO in Grounded for when I'm off the ground in the animation), which is kind of embarrassing.
As for the AI glitch, yeah, I'm expecting a fix fairly soon, as I was able to tank him for well over 10 min on my Ice/Storm 'troller using snowstorm and fly. He never even took a shot at me after the initial volley.
Yes... I sadly think that the idiot jump will no longer be an option soon. Probably by making him immune to range debuffs.
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
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That wouldn't fix the issue though. There are no range debuffs in Snowstorm. There's actually a fantastic post on the subject in the blaster forums, where Hyperstrike gives pics of him tanking LR with his blaster. Just get to the peak of those over sized windows and LR will jump up there, get TP'd back, and repeat. A blaster with good to-hit can do it, but so can any toon with a toggle debuff. pop a bunch of purps, hit him with the toggle and fly up even with the top either window, than go afk and have a snack. When you come back he'll still be jumping around like an idiot.|
Originally Posted by Smersh
Yes... I sadly think that the idiot jump will no longer be an option soon. Probably by making him immune to range debuffs.
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There is no way the devs let the (intended) most difficult encounter in the game be trivialized in this way.
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Wait, Thunderstrike's animation takes you out of Grounded? Seriously? That's incredibly lame! I keep a -KB in my Elec anyway for when jumping and stuff, but didn't think an attack animation would make you vulnerable.|
Originally Posted by Ribic
(I hate getting KB'd while using T-Strike, so I put an IO in Grounded for when I'm off the ground in the animation)
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I figured Elec & Invul were pretty close as runner ups, but wasn't sure which would take fewer insps (my personal gauge for who's the most effective tank against LR).
I remember there was a spot you could drag LR to w/any aura toon (did it often w/my Fire/Rad) and he'd just be stuck. They eventually fixed that, and they'll somehow get around this hover tanking business (give LR fly w/his amped up speed? Give him Web Grenades? TP foe?) soon enough, but I'm well & sick of the STF after this past week anyway.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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Ah. I've done something similar using Taunt, which was where I was coming from. I didn't use the windows - I had him trying to leap from banner stands trying to hit me with melee attacks, missing his jump towards me and trying again. Every five minutes or so he'd try to hit me with a channelgun attack.|
Originally Posted by Ribic
That wouldn't fix the issue though. There are no range debuffs in Snowstorm. There's actually a fantastic post on the subject in the blaster forums, where Hyperstrike gives pics of him tanking LR with his blaster. Just get to the peak of those over sized windows and LR will jump up there, get TP'd back, and repeat. A blaster with good to-hit can do it, but so can any toon with a toggle debuff. pop a bunch of purps, hit him with the toggle and fly up even with the top either window, than go afk and have a snack. When you come back he'll still be jumping around like an idiot.
There is no way the devs let the (intended) most difficult encounter in the game be trivialized in this way. |
It's pretty clearly borked.
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
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Didn't say they were week attacks. Can't get a fare assessment on it do to my horror able tank build. But it was fun to watch him run around in circles. And I did survive a little longer. Just be carfull he climes the poles.
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Originally Posted by Spiritchaser
If he doesn't have any -fly in his attacks that'd make him a bit of a pushover...
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That's actually the point. If you fly to the previously mentioned point, he jumps up the poles, the jumps to the top of the window just in front of you but before he can attack he is TP'd back to the ground. Then he jumps back up only to be TP'd back to the ground, etc, etc.
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Originally Posted by Hydrofoil_Zero
Didn't say they were week attacks. Can't get a fare assessment on it do to my horror able tank build. But it was fun to watch him run around in circles. And I did survive a little longer. Just be carfull he climes the poles.
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An easy way to tank Recluse is to take advantage of him being tethered to whichever tower is taking damage. Taunt him and run down into the trench on the same side as the tower being attacked. If you go back far enough, he'll keep chasing you until he reaches a certain distance and then will teleport back to the center of the platform.
Assuming your taunt effect is still active, he'll charge back down into the trench after you. If your taunt is slotted up with taunt duration and you have decent recharge, the taunt will stick on him long enough to run him all the way back toward you. You just need to keep taunting him and he'll keep running down and then teleporting back.
You do have to move a bit once each tower goes down (if you do the standard red->blue->yellow->green rotation, you'll move back a bit once the red goes down, then switch to the other trench when the blue dies, then move about 20 yards forward once the yellow drops). But aside from that, he'll rarely attack you, and if he does and he hits you, you'll have plenty of time to pop a green or hit your heal.
It also wins on pure humor value. I imagine Recluse is thinking "Grr, that guy said my helmet looks dumb! I'm gonna get him! Oh crap, they're destroying the tower that's making me a god! Gotta go back and get them. But, grrr, that insult was really uncalled for!" over and over.
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Remember when -range was added to taunt and it was on test? I was against the change in PvE then, gave the very obvious reason and mentioned so on the European forums....|
Originally Posted by Smersh
Yes... I sadly think that the idiot jump will no longer be an option soon. Probably by making him immune to range debuffs.
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I have to cast doubt on any Dev but War Witch or Statesman paying attention to them forums.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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To reiterate: the -range in taunt is NOT the issue. If it was this wouldn't be doable by blaster, troller, defender, corrs, etc
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Remember when -range was added to taunt and it was on test? I was against the change in PvE then, gave the very obvious reason and mentioned so on the European forums....
I have to cast doubt on any Dev but War Witch or Statesman paying attention to them forums. |
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There are ways to limit her. Just as it is with us, every power we take adds flexibility, you just remove a flexibility. -Fly works a treat.
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Originally Posted by Scientist
Just as a note, here, I don't think its possible any more to lock GW down with Immobs.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Tankers have a high threat level. Ensuring aggro is kept. The issue is with AVs and their resistance to -range. Now I need to be clearer. When I mentioned it on the european forums it was about the AVs and their resistance to it. I did include that. The whole time people were getting emps even when they had a stormie with their hurricane puzzled me.|
Originally Posted by Ribic
To reiterate: the -range in taunt is NOT the issue. If it was this wouldn't be doable by blaster, troller, defender, corrs, etc
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The whole time people have struggled to solve anything on this game has puzzled me too.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Maybe I misunderstood your original statement about the -range in Taunt. What would you use the stormie's hurricane to overcome? Certainly not a towerbuufer LR's to-hit, as it has a 25% boost from the blue tower and all but ignores tohit debuffs. Even GW should be resisting the tohit by about 90% if I understand AVs and the purple patch correctly. So that hurricane is only going to get you abour 5% tohit debuff, certainly nowhere near enough to trivialize the encounter. 8 stormies with hurricane, ok 40% is a lof of tohit, but my dark def (admittedly slotted heavily for debuff can stack well over 100% to hit debuff on a single target, and GW is still a threat even with that.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Tankers have a high threat level. Ensuring aggro is kept. The issue is with AVs and their resistance to -range. Now I need to be clearer. When I mentioned it on the european forums it was about the AVs and their resistance to it. I did include that. The whole time people were getting emps even when they had a stormie with their hurricane puzzled me.
The whole time people have struggled to solve anything on this game has puzzled me too. |
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Hurricane has -range.
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Originally Posted by Ribic
What would you use the stormie's hurricane to overcome?
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I think I'll just concede that I don't "get it". -Range does exactly nothing to PBAoEs and Melee attacks, which are the real issue with GW and LR (the only difficult portions of the STF). So either I'm missing the point or we are discussing COMPLETELY different things.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Hurricane has -range.
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There doesn't have to be pbaoes or melee attacks unless you are a target with the highest threat in the vicinity of them. So if they are a problem don't allow them to be an option.|
Originally Posted by Ribic
I think I'll just concede that I don't "get it". -Range does exactly nothing to PBAoEs and Melee attacks, which are the real issue with GW and LR (the only difficult portions of the STF). So either I'm missing the point or we are discussing COMPLETELY different things.
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Edit: I would consider Aeon or Scirroco the bigger pains in the butt overall because of how easily everything else can be outsmarted. That not saying alot about them though. Not much to say.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Lord Recluse does not fly, and doesn't have any way to keep you from flying. If your taunt is slotted for range, you can debuff his range so that he cannot hit you, even with his ranged attacks.
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Originally Posted by Ribic
I think I'll just concede that I don't "get it". -Range does exactly nothing to PBAoEs and Melee attacks, which are the real issue with GW and LR (the only difficult portions of the STF). So either I'm missing the point or we are discussing COMPLETELY different things.
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Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
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Prior to -range in taunt, hurricane could be used for -range, back then people were asking for emps when stormies and other defenders, also had useful tools, that could with a tankers optional flexibilities, work as well, already in team.
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Originally Posted by Smersh
Lord Recluse does not fly, and doesn't have any way to keep you from flying. If your taunt is slotted for range, you can debuff his range so that he cannot hit you, even with his ranged attacks.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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My point was that debuffing his range is completely unnecessary. It's neat that you may be able to accomplish this, but why would I worry about debuffing his range when it has been proven (by myself an others) that the exact same effect can be accomplished by a blaster, or ANY AT with a toggle debuff.|
Originally Posted by Smersh
Lord Recluse does not fly, and doesn't have any way to keep you from flying. If your taunt is slotted for range, you can debuff his range so that he cannot hit you, even with his ranged attacks.
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That is where I'm missing the point. Why does -Range even enter into the equation?
As for New dawns statments on "taking their options away" I still fail to see how -Range in any way affects GWs PBAoE heal and LR's Knockout Blow, since, ya know, it doesn't. As for there being other ways around them, yes, I believe we've established that, even to the point that using taunt or confront to accomplish this is thinking to narrowly. I've used snowstorm multiple times to accomplish the same goal (again, it has no range debuff in it).
Well so far only tank I have taken on Statesman is my SD/Fire tank so I do this really fun and easy easy(would go toe-to-toe but I don't like chancing him getting lose when I am only tank).
I hover right between those 2 spires and he just runs up and down while I taunt.
1st time I did it I moved to much and kept messing myself up trying to type instructions at same time. Didn't help I had the channelgun -recovery almost the whole time kept hitting me ever time I got back up(still finished that one)
2nd time I got the perfect spot-----Never lost him once and he only hit me once while team was fighting towers. That is right ONCE-UNO-ONE-Singular Hit, he managed to queue his ranged hit as he fell off once but it was after 2 towers had been dropped so it didn't hurt to bad and still had the bored emp hovering over me. The emp might have been a bit peeved I didn't help him with Healing badges but it made for a ZERO death Recluse fight.
3rd time with a therm I fought him on the ground and manged to stay alive whole time, was a real close call when I got toggle dropped and had to hop for my life(YAY inherent hurdle) luckily someone managed to give me a blue and LR only wanted to Melee me so kept from getting hit.
When my inv/dark gets set up I am not going to kite him again but I don't feel at all bad doing it and it is a riot watching him.
Edit: I edited like 3 times sorry.
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On the first ever successful all scrapper stf there was no more than 5 defeats.|
Originally Posted by Ribic
As for New dawns statments on "taking their options away" I still fail to see how -Range in any way affects GWs PBAoE heal and LR's Knockout Blow, since, ya know, it doesn't. As for there being other ways around them, yes, I believe we've established that, even to the point that using taunt or confront to accomplish this is thinking to narrowly. I've used snowstorm multiple times to accomplish the same goal (again, it has no range debuff in it).
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Tactics were used that remain semi secret today
I have been dictating to AVs what powers they can and can't use since 2005 oh wait, when I started. The powers you mentioned don't have to get used at all because the main noticeable target isn't there for them. How simple is that?
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Its extremely simple. It was never not simple. I was asking how, in certain situations, a particular effect YOU had brought to the conversation (-Range) had an affect. The answer isn't that -Range has any affect on GW's AoE heal, or LR's KO Blow. The answer is, in certain very specific cases that particular effect (in combination with others, say -fly for example) can be used to keep AV's at range while not allowing them to fire back. I've known that was the answer the entire time, I was trying to get you to admit that you were, at best, being disingenuous. Or at the very least that you were discussing something that required more than simply -range.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
On the first ever successful all scrapper stf there was no more than 5 defeats.
Tactics were used that remain semi secret today I have been dictating to AVs what powers they can and can't use since 2005 oh wait, when I started. The powers you mentioned don't have to get used at all because the main noticeable target isn't there for them. How simple is that? |
I get that you don't want to tell people how to play the game, hell I appreciate that you don't tell people how to manipulate faulty AI to trivialize content that many of us find fun because when played properly it can be challenging.
Using tactics like that just makes me feel as though I've wasted my time. You're not the only person who can look at a set of rules and find loopholes. There are a TON of us who can and actively choose not to. Oddly enough some people want to feel they've accomplished something on a TF.
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There's no need for anyone else's powers, or a tanker to use any power aside from taunt and hover/fly, to keep Recluse at range and shut down his options. No toggle debuffs or -fly need apply. It is as simple as -range and the ability to keep at range. Recluse cannot use his KO Blow if he cannot come close enough to do so.|
Originally Posted by Ribic
Its extremely simple. It was never not simple. I was asking how, in certain situations, a particular effect YOU had brought to the conversation (-Range) had an affect. The answer isn't that -Range has any affect on GW's AoE heal, or LR's KO Blow. The answer is, in certain very specific cases that particular effect (in combination with others, say -fly for example) can be used to keep AV's at range while not allowing them to fire back. I've known that was the answer the entire time, I was trying to get you to admit that you were, at best, being disingenuous. Or at the very least that you were discussing something that required more than simply -range.
I get that you don't want to tell people how to play the game, hell I appreciate that you don't tell people how to manipulate faulty AI to trivialize content that many of us find fun because when played properly it can be challenging. Using tactics like that just makes me feel as though I've wasted my time. You're not the only person who can look at a set of rules and find loopholes. There are a TON of us who can and actively choose not to. Oddly enough some people want to feel they've accomplished something on a TF. |
Note that I did not make any such claims about Ghost Widow. Though, of course, a Ghost Widow who is locked onto a tanker that cannot reach that tanker with her AoE heal is limited to her ranged attacks and won't fire off that AoE heal, that's more a function of immobilizes than -range.
You're taking another tactic that was used and holding it up. That's fine, it is another tactic that can be used in the game. It could just as easily be used by a tanker with Darkest Night. The existence of another tactic does not invalidate the tactic that was described. And the use of -range and fly seems, to my mind, less exploitative than using Recluse's teleport tether that keeps him in range of his towers.
You are, of course, welcome to feel that it is a less 'pure' form of tanking Recluse. The obvious counter-argument is that using -range and keeping Recluse at range is using only the tanker's own powers, and uses inspirations only as a reactive measure, as opposed to leaning on powers not inherent to the tanker in the form of team buffs and stacking multiple purple inspirations.
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
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Indeed. But as far as I know, you can keep him from attacking even without -range. The -range is not the important part of the equation. It may make it easier, but the real trick is just the AI manipulation. He gets locked onto a target and even if he cannot attack it, stays locked on.
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Originally Posted by Smersh
There's no need for anyone else's powers, or a tanker to use any power aside from taunt and hover/fly, to keep Recluse at range and shut down his options. No toggle debuffs or -fly need apply. It is as simple as -range and the ability to keep at range. Recluse cannot use his KO Blow if he cannot come close enough to do so.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Toe-to-toe, Elec should be very good too, though my own Elec/Elec is still in his 30s, but I've seen good success by other Elec tanks. Capped en resists, easy enough to cap S/L as well (IOs, oranges, Alpha slotting), can IO your way to a high def, and excellent end drain resists. Sub-par heal, but better than nothing.
Fully IO'ed up, I would think the best tanks in order would be Stone, Invul, then Elec. Granite is by far still the best for getting in his face--I used just a handful of insps, mostly as a precaution (1 purp, 1 orange while the red tower is up), on my last dance w/LR, and I actually only *needed* a couple of medium blues, cuz his end drain was still getting past Rooted for a decent dent.
Anyone can hover tank him w/relative ease. I suspect they're going to fix that soon though.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee