My level 29 Warshade looks something like this, and is amazing even without the IOs I have planned for her. Although, a huge part of that is the use of this guide: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=231629 from Dechs Kaison
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.81
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Warshade32: Level 48 Science Warshade
Primary Power Set: Umbral Blast
Secondary Power Set: Umbral Aura
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Concealment
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Shadow Bolt -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Absorption -- ResDam(A)
Level 2: Ebon Eye -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Gravimetric Snare -- Empty(A)
Level 6: Dark Nova -- EndMod(A)
Level 8: Hasten -- RechRdx(A)
Level 10: Combat Jumping -- Empty(A)
Level 12: Sunless Mire -- EndRdx(A)
Level 14: Shadow Cloak -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Super Speed -- Run(A)
Level 18: Gravity Well -- Acc(A)
Level 20: Black Dwarf -- ResDam(A), ResDam(27), ResDam(27), EndRdx(29)
Level 22: Stygian Circle -- EndMod-I(A)
Level 24: Stealth -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 26: Grant Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 28: Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 30: [Empty]
Level 32: [Empty] -- Empty(A)
Level 35: [Empty]
Level 38: [Empty]
Level 41: [Empty]
Level 44: [Empty]
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: [Empty]
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx(A)
Level 1: Dark Sustenance
Level 1: Shadow Step -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 10: Shadow Recall -- EndRdx-I(A)
------------
Level 6: Dark Nova Bolt -- Acc(A), Dmg(15), Dmg(15), Dmg(17)
Level 6: Dark Nova Blast -- Acc(A), Dmg(17), Dmg(19), Dmg(19)
Level 6: Dark Nova Emanation -- Acc(A), EndRdx(21), Dmg(21), Dmg(23)
Level 6: Dark Nova Detonation -- Acc(A), EndRdx(23), Dmg(25), Dmg(25), Dmg(29)
Level 20: Black Dwarf Strike -- Acc(A), EndRdx(11), Dmg(13), Dmg(13)
Level 20: Black Dwarf Smite -- Acc(A), EndRdx(9), Dmg(9), Dmg(11)
Level 20: Black Dwarf Mire -- Acc(A), EndRdx(5), EndRdx(7), RechRdx(7)
Level 20: Black Dwarf Drain -- Acc(A), EndRdx(3), EndRdx(3), Heal(5)
Level 20: Black Dwarf Step -- EndRdx(A)
Level 20: Black Dwarf Antagonize -- RechRdx(A)
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1228;519;1038;HEX;| |78DA7D93CF6ED34010C6D7EC264EECD84EEA26FD17D1D29E7AC9012E400F085A211| |51511D102172072D26D63C9B8559C5654F4400B0784FA0A3C08E2E1CCCCEE38B543| |C42AF93EFB37DFAC3763E5E5E79D1A635F9F30C3DD8E8224E9BD0B46C9303894E6F| |E2094F1405A197870DF648CAD66B7BD574747324EC273D979F3A93F0AA2DE33E81F| |DF9DD477E454FDE9D92868ECC6433992F1B8935D58DD9393A8B37F2AE5614D5DEEC| |9E0348C8F1BEA66373E0F93B01F46E1F8C256E479141E0FC76C11CEB209DF2B38BD| |5E297C60B1B33C9903139C5D033388192AF50D0827C215F90EA444A454D67DEBF09| |34D626643B316802AB1AAEAFC019DB6DA3F65B6A95317C01C4A392AB501158F88E7| |EBD44F4835882907F60598AF0E9B729FCEBF3CE56D7ACA25649BF4E4E61AD83A73A| |0B4405B2E340D442EA025424B1A79805608AD6894668BAD2A4DFFBBDA627AEE7BFF| |90AEC84D9DA6B7A652EAC4E98B7CC73D75FA03911BAE46AE98BC175EA219B9BCE87| |572674636ABCD4D797D46769EE63A4F9916B9779B1559B645D9455EF43679057A7C| |DADFA71E8B7A6ABCE8E519D90A652B94B1C84B2A6B14B282B2E5CC69DA62C6BE77C| |CA20B4BBB799B653ED5789ED19EBF27FFAFEA6B6C3D40E9A2BC45798FF201E5234A| |80D24719A0A47F26DDDE437CFD8F501EA36CA134EB203798346D101BA586E2A0B82| |81E4A1DC5475946F98592FE05C8FDC326| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Make a man a fire and keep him warm for the day, SET a man on fire and keep him warm for the rest of his life.
Incarnates: K'lir(Fire/Dark Corr):Hot-House Flower(Plant/Fire Dom):Kinrad X(Kin/Rad Def):Itsy-Bitsy Spider(Crab):Two Ton Tony(Mace/WP Broot):Teeny Weeny Widow(Fortunata/Widow) : Zeroth Law (Ice/Fire Tank)
Both Kheldian ATs perform quite well on SOs alone. You won't be able to do some of the heinously awesome things you read about here on the forums but you'll be able to do as advertised, fill a multitude of roles adequately via your forms and diverse suite of powers.
That being said, why are you going SOs only? I've found that a lot of players don't bother with IOs because they're put off by the seemingly astronomical prices on the market. If that's the case you can rest assured that, in most cases, you don't need to pay anywhere near what's listed as long as you're patient and learn the system. There are plenty of great guides in the market forums if you're interested in making money without all the time (And frustration) that farming or "just playing the game" requires.
Wanna play a Peacebringer? Don't believe the hype. Check out my guide and get the real truth:
PEACEBRINGERS SUCK!!! (Now fully up to date for i21+
) Thanks for the responses. I usually go with So's so I can solo easier without spending too much. I recently just IO'd my first character but I had to save up nearly a billion to do it. So I was just thinking about starting a PB or WS and wasnt sure which to pick. So I tried both and I like both of them. I think I'll play the PB first to 50 and then the WS.
Quote:
I highly recommend you do exactly this. But don't make any decisions on whom to IO until you've gotten the Warshade to 50.
|
Originally Posted by Gandil
I think I'll play the PB first to 50 and then the WS.
|
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Quote:
Agreed. Frankly, you can probably IO them both if you want. I've got a PB and Warshade at 50 and their builds didn't cost me more than 200 million after factoring in Architect tickets and Reward Merits. Alignment Merits didn't exist when I was IOing them out but now that they're in the game it'd probably be even cheaper.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
I highly recommend you do exactly this. But don't make any decisions on whom to IO until you've gotten the Warshade to 50.
|
One other piece of advice, I don't recommend building for Recharge with a Peacebinger. I did it with mine and was fairly unsatisfied with the performance I got. I'm not a fan of +Recharge builds in general because they're widely utilized which makes getting the IOs you need more expensive.
Wanna play a Peacebringer? Don't believe the hype. Check out my guide and get the real truth:
PEACEBRINGERS SUCK!!! (Now fully up to date for i21+
)
If you're asking about fun: you have to try them. I can't tell you what you think is fun. Peacebringers have very nice visual effects and can stay in human form more without suffering much for it. Warshades use mob draining and generally should be in squid or lobster form as much as possible to leverage their self-buffs. Both ATs are 'viable' by which I mean they'll contribute to an average team of average players and can solo on +0 x1 difficulty (or slightly higher) without using IOs from level 1 to level 50. From this perspective, which you prefer is going to come down to how it feels to you.
If you're asking about relative numerical and high-end IO performance: Forget peacebringers. I'd just play the warshade, and IO them. In any game with a diversity in classes/ATs, some AT is going to be the worst one. In City of Heroes, that worst AT is peacebringers. The short reason why is because warshades are better at leveraging the forms because of mire and eclipse, and taking the forms away makes the PB a gimped - yes, if you're a melee who's got no mez protection, the basic damage of a tanker, the basic defenses of a scrapper, and the hitpoints of a defender, you're gimped by COH standards - melee. Your cosmic link buff can make up for some of that, but not all of it and never more than two at the same time.
On the subject of IOs - it's actually cheaper to 'franken slot' or 'cheap set' your build in the middle 30s and never worry about buying SOs again. The recipes for sets like focused smite or ruin are dumped onto the market for a fraction of the price of an SO, and then once slotted will never go red and need replacement. Generally speaking, cheap IOs that are 'off build' and you buy around level 30 will have paid for themselves by level 40-45. You can then just slot over them with your 'real IOs' later, gradually replacing them with the good stuff as you go, instead of having to save up and build yourself out all at once.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
Quote:
This isn't one of those "PBs are the best!!!" posts, but even though I respect your opinion, I have to disagree. As with anything, it all depends on your playstyle...but I think you are shortchanging PBs by calling them gimp. I IOd my Triform for high recharge, max HPs and solid damage output to try out PvP back in i11. Having said that, I run it through a lot of TF content pretty regularly and with 2x heals that are up every 20 secs, a permad Dull Pain clone that puts me over 2k HPs and blasts that I can throw in a handful of different procs to max the damage, it plays great. Mezzed? If I dont feel like going Dwarf, then I just pop a breakfree like any other squishy AT and keep it moving. A Human PB designed for melee could do just as well if not better if built correctly.|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
If you're asking about relative numerical and high-end IO performance: Forget peacebringers. I'd just play the warshade, and IO them. In any game with a diversity in classes/ATs, some AT is going to be the worst one. In City of Heroes, that worst AT is peacebringers. The short reason why is because warshades are better at leveraging the forms because of mire and eclipse, and taking the forms away makes the PB a gimped - yes, if you're a melee who's got no mez protection, the basic damage of a tanker, the basic defenses of a scrapper, and the hitpoints of a defender, you're gimped by COH standards - melee. Your cosmic link buff can make up for some of that, but not all of it and never more than two at the same time.
|
It depends on what I feel like playing that day and even though I prefer my IOd WS better for most PvE content, I have to say that an IOd PB is a farcry from the worst AT in CoH. Yeah it is a jack of all trades, but that gives a player the flexibility to build a Human PB anyway he/she wants by maximizing on whatever strengths that are desirable: a Blaster with heals/softcapped ranged defenses, a Tank with solid HPs/heals/resistances/great damage, a Scrapper with solid HPs/heals/resistances/great damage etc etc.
YMMV...
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
Quote:
You can run through TF content on any character - including peacebringers - with just SOs with no problem. My peacebringer had all the TF badges available at the time when issue 9 came out and brought inventions to us. And that was several issues before the kheldian 'fix' too. No AT is so weak as to be literally unplayable unless the player intentionally mis-builds them, and I never claimed otherwise.|
Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
This isn't one of those "PBs are the best!!!" posts, but even though I respect your opinion, I have to disagree. As with anything, it all depends on your playstyle...but I think you are shortchanging PBs by calling them gimp. I IOd my Triform for high recharge, max HPs and solid damage output to try out PvP back in i11. Having said that, I run it through a lot of TF content pretty regularly and with 2x heals that are up every 20 secs, a permad Dull Pain clone that puts me over 2k HPs and blasts that I can throw in a handful of different procs to max the damage, it plays great. Mezzed? If I dont feel like going Dwarf, then I just pop a breakfree like any other squishy AT and keep it moving. A Human PB designed for melee could do just as well if not better if built correctly.
|
On the human form: you're focusing on "gimped" when the operative term is "gimped melee." Melee ATs are extraordinarily powerful in City right now, and an IO'd melee is going to both kill and survive circles around most other characters. The TF content a PB "can participate in," many IO'd melees can solo at +1x8 (in some edge cases, even higher), including the archvillain(s).
On mez protection, or more accurately, on breakfrees: Mez is the only place in the game people say "just pop a breakfree" about. Why don't blasters pop enrages to do damage, or tankers pop lucks to have defenses? Why don't brutes and scrappers use breakfrees for mez protection? Or VEATs or stalkers? It's because they aren't going to be functional if they did. Guess what? Neither are PBs.
Quote:
|
It depends on what I feel like playing that day and even though I prefer my IOd WS better for most PvE content, I have to say that an IOd PB is a farcry from the worst AT in CoH. Yeah it is a jack of all trades, but that gives a player the flexibility to build a Human PB anyway he/she wants by maximizing on whatever strengths that are desirable: a Blaster with heals/softcapped ranged defenses, a Tank with solid HPs/heals/resistances/great damage, a Scrapper with solid HPs/heals/resistances/great damage etc etc. YMMV... |
I also don't think PBs realistically have all the flexibility you mentioned. Softcapping ranged defense is extremely build-intensive when you have no native +defense powers to stack with, and is broadly exclusive with the +recharge build required to make an attack chain that's not full of suck, and what's more, if you look at stats of the PB humanform ranged attacks vs the melee attacks, you'd probably realize that if you're going to go for +defense, you'd want to softcap your melee defense instead.
You're not a tank in dwarf form. You aren't even close to a tank in either survivability or aggro management, and your damage in dwarf form isn't great, an earth controller would laugh at it. Just like actual scrappers will laugh at the comparison of a PB to them in the performance arena.
I'm being a little harsh, but I'm pre-coffee, and well, this is the simple reality of the game. Look around you. Do the math if you want to - it's there in the math too - but really, all you have to do is look around you and see what everyone else is doing that your PB will not be able to even reasonably approach on a consistent basis and/or without the excessive use of inspirations.
Insps are powerful, but they're powerful for everyone. And every breakfree your PB has to pack into a mission is an enrage or a luck for someone else, adding actual longevity or increasing their damage over already-higher damage or longevity or both.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
Quote:
Flawed question, as PBs have only *one* primary and *one* secondary. |
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
What is the worst AT in COH if not PBs? That's a serious question. Think about it and answer - I don't mean worst powerset combo or worst intentionally-crippled build concept. I mean as an AT, if PBs aren't the worst one, what is?
|
I can say my PB outperforms my controller. Someone else can say their controller can tear through a map faster than my PB. And we'd both be right - because there's no one "controller" set. I'd be talking about my Earth/FF (who nearly ran out of time on Shadowhunter's map at base settings,) or perhaps my Ill/Sonic (which, frankly, I hate playing,) they might be talking about their Fire/Rad or Fire/Kin.
The closest to "sets" a Kheld has are the choice to take one or both forms.
It's also flawed in that you're asking "Worst" - worst *what?* "Worst AT" isn't an answer, either. A PB is worse at control than a dedicated controller - but it's far better at blasting and tanking.
Generally, getting an "answer" to this is one of "Well, it's a worse blaster than a blaster." Well, no kidding. That's because it's not a blaster. "It's not as good as a dedicated tank." See blaster answer. Know what else? That tank's a pretty crappy blaster, too, but I don't see anyone coming down on tanks for that. So why do people insist on coming down on Peacebringers for not being something they aren't?
My Peacebringers are damn good Peacebringers, and that's all there is to that. What does that mean to me? I *do* have the flexibility to adapt to roles, to open up possibilities to handle situations that standard ATs don't have. Sure, tell me I'm not a tank - I never claimed to be - but I'll just grin and remember some pre-I13 PVP where I'd eat multiple ASes or hold off a team of 5-6 villains solo, unbuffed, for a good five minutes. Yes, on SOs. Defeated them? Obviously not, since they *were* getting buffed and healed - but I lasted far longer than they ever expected. Or remember self-PLing in Perez as soon as I got Nova. Or - since my first PB, created in issue 5, IIRC (mid-July 2005) - treating the entire trip to 50 as "round 2" and thoroughly trouncing the enemies that gave the "original" blaster such fits. On SOs.
Am I running through on 4/8? No. But I don't tend to do that on any of my characters, so I *don't care.* Am I soloing AVs and GMs like:
Quote:
| Melee ATs are extraordinarily powerful in City right now, and an IO'd melee is going to both kill and survive circles around most other characters. The TF content a PB "can participate in," many IO'd melees can solo at +1x8 (in some edge cases, even higher), including the archvillain(s). |
If not running +4//x8 makes an AT "the worst" to you, well, that's fine for you. Find something that does that. My pickup not topping 250MPH like a Veryon or carrying a semi's load of cargo doesn't make it the worst vehicle, either.
Your peacebringer is a great peacebringer, yes. That's absolutely true, because it's a syllogism. It's not very descriptive or helpful, though, also because it's a syllogism.
But, what does a great peacebringer do? The same things as a bad peacebringer, and indeed, as every other character: it moves, it deals damage, it mitigates damage, it recovers damage, and it recovers the endurance is uses to accomplish those things. Every character does all of those things to greater or lesser extents.
There's no real "jack of all trading" when any "method" of mitigation all boils down to "do you live or not" and any "method" of offense all boils down to "how long it takes you to kill the other guys." The game doesn't give you partial credit for "almost" killing something, or for "almost" surviving it. You don't get a bonus for using special combos or fighting with extra style. (It would be cool if it did and you could!) But the way the game is, either you do, or you don't - regardless of how. The game doesn't change your numerical reward (or punishment) for using one method as opposed to another, and it doesn't grade on a curve.
This isn't about what I value, in short - it's about what the game values. And the game expresses what it values via rewards (exp, inf, drops) and punishments (debt). Them's the rules.
You might note, if you read the post I was replying to when I mentioned IO'd melees, that the poster mentioned his own heavily-IO'd peacebringer. It's not a fair comparison to claim an IO'd peacebringer is great while using SO'd characters as the basis for that comparison. If the PB in a discussion gets to be IO'd and played and built intelligently, it's only fair that so does their competition. Afterall, do you suddenly forget how to play when you alt? I don't.
You make a car analogy. A truck isn't as fast as a sportscar, a sportscar doesn't haul as much as a truck. This is absolutely true. But you don't enter a truck into a sportscar race, if you can help it, at least. Just like you don't use a sportscar (if you can help it, anyway) to haul heavy cargo. You want to make that analogy to that within City there's different kinds of functions for different kinds of "cars." But what I want to drive at is that in fact, City is not really that complex. It's not sometimes a sportscar race and sometimes a cargo hauling contest. It's just a sportscar race, all of the time. What you want to enter into it is the best sportscar, not the best truck, or the best "crossover" or "sport-utility." The truck, the crossover, and the sport-utility will all get to the finish line eventually, but it will be well behind the actual sportscars.
Edit - in fact this points out several things. You may find driving those other kinds of vehicles to be more fun than driving a sportscar. That's fine. You're perfectly within your rights to drive what you like; nobody is telling you that you shouldn't like it. And you do get to the finish line - you can complete the race (game) with a non-sportscar (any AT/build). But the question in the OP and the discussion at hand is not "if PBs are viable" or "if PBs are fun" it's "how do PBs compare." And they compare like an SUV in a sportscar race.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
Quote:
No, the question is "How do they do on SOs?" And they do just fine. |
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
But the question in the OP and the discussion at hand is not "if PBs are viable" or "if PBs are fun" it's "how do PBs compare." And they compare like an SUV in a sportscar race.
|
For all your post above, all I can point out is that if some mathematical kill/time/xp/inf formula were all that mattered, everyone would be playing nothing but the highest-damage ATs. Probably not touching blasters, because they can be shut down by a mez.
If you look around, though, you see that's not the case.
You bring up the "worst AT" without defining "worst" as anything but - well, "worst," which is so vague you might as well talk about "that one AT, you know, the one with the powers and stuff."
And for all your wanting to dismiss "My Peacebringer is a great Peacebringer," you seem to ignore everything else that went with that. There's little variation in Peacebringers - a few power choices or forms. But as I said before, you *can't* just say "It's better/worse than *insert other AT here* at damage/survivability." (There are cases you can - hard control, obviously, is going to be the Controller/Dominator domain, team buffing the Defender, Corruptor and/or Mastermind - or controller. But with your "Defeat enemies and survive," you can't make the blanket statement.)
The Peacebringer is *not* a melee AT. If you look at its powers, you see quite a bit of range, some buffs (self and team, if you want to count Group Energy Flight in with the heal,) some resistance and some melee. Yes, its heavy hitters tend to be melee, and the Dwarf form is geared toward melee - but that's not the definition of the entire AT, any more than having some melee powers in a secondary makes Dominators or Blasters a "melee AT" (and the blasters would fall short in some of your definitions as well, lacking mez protection, any sort of built in defenses until APPs in most cases, etc.)
I'd argue the Warshade is more of a melee AT than the Peacebringer, as it has more powers that require (and reward) the player in melee range.
The Peacebringer is a hybrid AT. Again, no, it's not a blaster, no it's not a scrapper. It's not meant to be, so knocking it down for not being some other AT is silly.
Often enough, you'll hear a comparison of hero ATs and villain ATs, where hero ATs are listed as the specialists and villain ATs are more generalists. And where were Kheldians introduced? Right in between them - and quite honestly, that's exactly where they fit, leaning a bit more toward the redside "not one specialized role" philosophy.
Oh, and I do have to nitpick:
Quote:
| The game doesn't give you partial credit for "almost" killing something, |
I know it's not precisely what you were aiming for, but that case is there, and common enough.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
But the question in the OP and the discussion at hand is not "if PBs are viable" or "if PBs are fun" it's "how do PBs compare."
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
No, the question is "How do they do on SOs?"
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Gandil
Was wondering how well PBs and WSs work on just SOs. How do they compare?
|
How do they compare to each other? How well do they compare to other ATs on SOs?
You could make an argument for either one, but the question of comparison is present.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
This is not in the same vein as my last post, thus the separate post.
Quote:
It's not a blaster and it's not a scrapper, this much is true and not the subject of the argument. The problem is that it is not enough of a blaster to fill in the not enough of a scrapper and not enough of a controller.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
The Peacebringer is a hybrid AT. Again, no, it's not a blaster, no it's not a scrapper. It's not meant to be, so knocking it down for not being some other AT is silly.
|
It was balanced too hard for its roles, especially considering scrappers get some controls, controllers get some damage, and blasters get some defense. They have things to fill in the gaps.
I think that's where I think Peacebringers are. They aren't a hybrid AT that can fill several roles. They're a bunch of gaps that have been filled in. Not good enough at anything.
I'm coming across a bit harsh, though. I have played a PB into high 40s before I deleted it, and I've played with PBs on my teams. There's nothing exactly wrong with them, I just feel that if you start comparing the numbers and the capabilities, you'd be happier with any other AT, even an earth/FF.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Not all Scrappers are extrodinarily powerful, but yes, there are top tier powersets and also meh powerset combos like any AT. If you want to compare an IOd human PB to an IOd something/Regen Scrapper, I'll agree. But if that IOd PB can keep up or surpass a lot of Scrapper combos, I don't see how that can be called gimped melee.|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
On the human form: you're focusing on "gimped" when the operative term is "gimped melee." Melee ATs are extraordinarily powerful in City right now, and an IO'd melee is going to both kill and survive circles around most other characters. The TF content a PB "can participate in," many IO'd melees can solo at +1x8 (in some edge cases, even higher), including the archvillain(s).
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
On mez protection, or more accurately, on breakfrees: Mez is the only place in the game people say "just pop a breakfree" about. Why don't blasters pop enrages to do damage, or tankers pop lucks to have defenses? Why don't brutes and scrappers use breakfrees for mez protection? Or VEATs or stalkers? It's because they aren't going to be functional if they did. Guess what? Neither are PBs.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
I also don't think PBs realistically have all the flexibility you mentioned. Softcapping ranged defense is extremely build-intensive when you have no native +defense powers to stack with, and is broadly exclusive with the +recharge build required to make an attack chain that's not full of suck, and what's more, if you look at stats of the PB humanform ranged attacks vs the melee attacks, you'd probably realize that if you're going to go for +defense, you'd want to softcap your melee defense instead.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
You're not a tank in dwarf form. You aren't even close to a tank in either survivability or aggro management, and your damage in dwarf form isn't great, an earth controller would laugh at it. Just like actual scrappers will laugh at the comparison of a PB to them in the performance arena.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
I'm being a little harsh, but I'm pre-coffee, and well, this is the simple reality of the game. Look around you. Do the math if you want to - it's there in the math too - but really, all you have to do is look around you and see what everyone else is doing that your PB will not be able to even reasonably approach on a consistent basis and/or without the excessive use of inspirations.
|
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
Quote:
In the context of "because I want to go on to IO the better of either a PB or a WS, but not both."|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
No, the question is "How do they do on SOs?" And they do just fine.
|
Quote:
|
For all your post above, all I can point out is that if some mathematical kill/time/xp/inf formula were all that mattered, everyone would be playing nothing but the highest-damage ATs. Probably not touching blasters, because they can be shut down by a mez. If you look around, though, you see that's not the case. |
Numerically - I forget the exact numbers, but the trend over time going by what I recall of some posts BAB made a while ago, has been away from tankers, defenders, stalkers, and dominators, and towards brutes, scrappers, and controllers.
I can't remember the last time I TF'd with a tanker, in fact, that wasn't the STF. I don't at all think that any of this is a coincidence with how IOs operate on the other ATs.
Quote:
| You bring up the "worst AT" without defining "worst" as anything but - well, "worst," which is so vague you might as well talk about "that one AT, you know, the one with the powers and stuff." |
Blasters are probably the second-to-last on the AT level, because of their atrocious survivability (they aren't actually shut down by mezzes - a mezzed blaster still outdamages white dwarf, with SOs!), but their offense is really quite powerful and makes up for a lot, too. In the car race, they'd be the drag racer - it goes fast, it accelerates fast, but it doesn't turn very well or have much of a suspension and uses very volatile fuel so if you encounter a bump or a curve, you're probably going to die a flashy, fiery death.
Quote:
| And for all your wanting to dismiss "My Peacebringer is a great Peacebringer," you seem to ignore everything else that went with that. There's little variation in Peacebringers - a few power choices or forms. But as I said before, you *can't* just say "It's better/worse than *insert other AT here* at damage/survivability." (There are cases you can - hard control, obviously, is going to be the Controller/Dominator domain, team buffing the Defender, Corruptor and/or Mastermind - or controller. But with your "Defeat enemies and survive," you can't make the blanket statement.) |
But I disagree, in that I can certainly justify making the blanket statement of "defeat enemies and survive." The game doesn't care if you survive by control-locking the enemy until they're mostly defeated, or if you survive by having high damage resistance and soaking their attacks, or even if you survive by just killing them a lot faster. It doesn't assign you extra points for the first or assign you extra debt if you fail for the second.
Them's the rules. I didn't make them. I don't even agree with them, but that's outside the purview of this topic. What is in the purview of this topic is that when you log in, regardless of what character you choose to play it with, you are still playing the same game.
Some characters are better at that game than others, not unlike any game where you can choose different characters. Why else do so many people choose Ryu and Chun Li in competitive Street Fighter?
Quote:
| The Peacebringer is *not* a melee AT. If you look at its powers, you see quite a bit of range, some buffs (self and team, if you want to count Group Energy Flight in with the heal,) some resistance and some melee. Yes, its heavy hitters tend to be melee, and the Dwarf form is geared toward melee - but that's not the definition of the entire AT, any more than having some melee powers in a secondary makes Dominators or Blasters a "melee AT" (and the blasters would fall short in some of your definitions as well, lacking mez protection, any sort of built in defenses until APPs in most cases, etc.) |
Now, I actually think that's an atrocity of game balance. And like I said above, I definitely have seen a shift towards damage-based melee characters (ie, brutes and scrappers) since the introduction of IOs. (And I already mentioned blasters above, the drag car thing would repeat here).
As far as peacebringers not being a melee AT: go try and put together an all-ranged attack chain that doesn't suck in comparison with a melee-ranged combo one, and doesn't rely on a procspammed gleaming bolt.
The truth is you don't have enough attacks - especially on SOs - to have a seamless attack chain of all melee or all range unless you're using gleaming bolt every 2nd attack. Which actually is less bad than it sounds because gleaming bolt and glinting eye have the same DPA (meaning a ranged attack chain of say bolt/blast/bolt/eye/bolt/blast/bolt is 5/7 comprised of tier 1 attacks... in english, that means its damage is gonna be pretty awful*).* - procs can increase it a lot, mostly because PBs can take -def sets in their attacks.
But realistically you have to use both the ranged and melee attacks. However since you can use ranged attack in melee but can't use melee attack at range, guess where you'll be standing when you fire those ranged attacks?
White dwarf is something I'd love to forget exists, but you seem to see it as a positive. In fact, it's a trap! </mon motha> White dwarf doesn't have the survivability to handle modern tanking situations (which tend to require debuff resistance) and it doesn't have the aggro control to protect teammates very well either. Willpower tankers can struggle to keep aggro, and that's just with a 'weaker' taunt aura, not with 'no' taunt aura.
White dwarf's damage is ridiculously bad. It's like granite armor with a way higher offensive penalty, that doesn't let you refresh earth's embrace, and that only gives about 1/2 the survivability increase. And when was the last time you actually saw someone playing granite? I think the last one I teamed with was like in issue 12. IOs have closed the survivability gap and widened the offensive gap, between a non-granite and a granite meatshield.
Quote:
|
I'd argue the Warshade is more of a melee AT than the Peacebringer, as it has more powers that require (and reward) the player in melee range. The Peacebringer is a hybrid AT. Again, no, it's not a blaster, no it's not a scrapper. It's not meant to be, so knocking it down for not being some other AT is silly. Often enough, you'll hear a comparison of hero ATs and villain ATs, where hero ATs are listed as the specialists and villain ATs are more generalists. And where were Kheldians introduced? Right in between them - and quite honestly, that's exactly where they fit, leaning a bit more toward the redside "not one specialized role" philosophy. |
Meanwhile their pets are ranged/independent sources of damage and their preemptive area control is a ranged power. Black dwarf is much more viable than white dwarf because of dwarf mire, but the warshade is also much sturdier in nova form thanks to eclipse so in terms of pure performance strategy, the WS would want to avoid dwarfing just as much as a peacebringer would - and is better able to.
I actually disagree on the specialist/generalist AT design being hero vs villain. Only blasters are a particularly specialized AT in the game, in my opinion, and along with peacebringers represent the worst balance problem. Tankers still deal quite significant damage in many cases, and certainly are much closer to a blaster's damage than a blaster is to their survivability.
However, blasters are an "AT-level trade off" that puts what they're about right on the tin. If you play a blaster, stuff's gonna die. Some of that stuff's gonna be you.
Peacebringers want to pretend towards a versatility and hybridization that they fail to properly deliver, because of the horrid state of white dwarf and the lack of enough humanform mez protection to reliably employ their full attack chain. White nova helps, but if you're hanging out in nova form all the time, you're using the one subset of your powers that does work well... but that a warshade (or just a straight blaster) would do better.
The "SUV" peacebringer thus ends up finishing somewhat to slightly behind the drag car blaster, who zooms ahead and explodes, zooms ahead and explodes, etc etc while the PB slows down to shift on their four-wheel drive when the going gets rough and occasionally ends up in a rollover if they try and corner too sharply, but otherwise their way at "safe speeds" around the track.
Quote:
|
Oh, and I do have to nitpick: Yes, actually, it does. If my AOE hits (say) 5 enemies. One runs off, my followup hits and defeats 4, and someone else does the last bit of damage to the one that ran off - I get credit for it. Not full, but I do get a reward for it. I know it's not precisely what you were aiming for, but that case is there, and common enough. |
But what I was getting at is that a wounded enemy still has the same offensive and defensive capacity as a perfectly healthy one, less any debuffs applied by attacks. Just losing health doesn't impact performance (which is why "offense is a defense" only applies in the simplest and most direct manner - kill it to dead before it can do the same to you... going back to drag car blasters yet again.)
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
CrazyJerseyan, I can't tell if you're talking about PVP or PVE in some parts, but they are fundamentally different games. I am only talking about PVE. I think PBs compare fairly well to regen scrappers in PVE, actually, because regen scrappers generally aren't the ones who are stacking defense IOs onto defensive powersets to reach over 90% average mitigation to damage while retaining near-blaster levels of damage output
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
Quote:
If you want to contain enemies or bubble your team, I have to agree with your last statement.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
This is not in the same vein as my last post, thus the separate post.
It's not a blaster and it's not a scrapper, this much is true and not the subject of the argument. The problem is that it is not enough of a blaster to fill in the not enough of a scrapper and not enough of a controller. It was balanced too hard for its roles, especially considering scrappers get some controls, controllers get some damage, and blasters get some defense. They have things to fill in the gaps. I think that's where I think Peacebringers are. They aren't a hybrid AT that can fill several roles. They're a bunch of gaps that have been filled in. Not good enough at anything. I'm coming across a bit harsh, though. I have played a PB into high 40s before I deleted it, and I've played with PBs on my teams. There's nothing exactly wrong with them, I just feel that if you start comparing the numbers and the capabilities, you'd be happier with any other AT, even an earth/FF. |
I use my current PB mostly in the role of a Blaster and with the slotting in its 2 ST Nova blasts alone, it seems to surpass a lot of Blasters in range and damage. I hit from about 160ft away and have at least 3x procs for damage, holding and -res. With a high recharge, the 2 blasts cycle through in 1-2secs, the procs activate often and the secondary effect is -defense on top of it all. It actually seems more powerful than my blasters with scrapper level HPs, built in phase and rez, Light Form and other tricks.
Im not discounting your post, but if I had not taken my PB to lv50 and went crazy with IOs, I probably would have felt the same as, "The problem is that it is not enough of a blaster to fill in". I'm working on a Human only now and can talk more about the, "not enough of a scrapper" comment later.
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
Quote:
I was talking about both and I agree they are different games, thats why I said, "I know PvP and PvE have their differences". If you're saying that an IOd Human PB can't compare to an IOd high defense Scrapper, I agree again. Seriously though, what isnt gimped when compared to those couple of builds? I mean you can compare other melee ATs to those builds and call them gimped as well.|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
CrazyJerseyan, I can't tell if you're talking about PVP or PVE in some parts, but they are fundamentally different games. I am only talking about PVE. I think PBs compare fairly well to regen scrappers in PVE, actually, because regen scrappers generally aren't the ones who are stacking defense IOs onto defensive powersets to reach over 90% average mitigation to damage while retaining near-blaster levels of damage output
|
You can see that my post count is low and I can count the # of times I have posted in the Kheldians section on one hand so I'm not a die hard "I LOVE MY PB!!!" guy. With everything you have said though, I just can't get with the "its the worst AT in the game" concept.
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
Quote:
It's more than just a couple of builds, though... you can reach quite high defensive performance with little offensive tradeoff on many melee characters. Like I've got a dark melee/fire armor brute who, with no purples, has 35% defense to smashing/lethal and to melee, 50% smash/lethal resist, and a 14 second recycle on healing flames. My old triformer PB's white dwarf is looking at that, crying, from over in the corner.|
Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
I was talking about both and I agree they are different games, thats why I said, "I know PvP and PvE have their differences". If you're saying that an IOd Human PB can't compare to an IOd high defense Scrapper, I agree again. Seriously though, what isnt gimped when compared to those couple of builds? I mean you can compare other melee ATs to those builds and call them gimped as well.
|
[/quote]You can see that my post count is low and I can count the # of times I have posted in the Kheldians section on one hand so I'm not a die hard "I LOVE MY PB!!!" guy. With everything you have said though, I just can't get with the "its the worst AT in the game" concept.[/QUOTE]
People read "it's the worst AT" and see it as a statement that it's not viable against the content. But that's not what it means, what it means is less that PBs are weak (though in a number of ways they look stronger than they really are) and more that the other ATs are by and large, very, very strong and get even stronger with IOs.
PBs are perfectly good SUVs, but the other ATs are drag cars, porsches, ferraris, and so on.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
Quote:
If you say there are a lot of ATs that are way stronger than PBs and that PBs are the worst AT in the game, I'll just have to take your word for it. Like I said before, good discussion.
|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
People read "it's the worst AT" and see it as a statement that it's not viable against the content. But that's not what it means, what it means is less that PBs are weak (though in a number of ways they look stronger than they really are) and more that the other ATs are by and large, very, very strong and get even stronger with IOs.
PBs are perfectly good SUVs, but the other ATs are drag cars, porsches, ferraris, and so on. |
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
I'm just curious Flux, what's your take on PBs compared to stalkers? Because Posi has come out and said that the Stalker is broken because of the way game mechanics impact it. Specifically referring to them being great at slow (because of 6 second re-hide and long activating assassin strike) Single Target combat but the game being built around fast AoE combat.
Near as I can tell that's as close as any dev has come to saying one AT is behind the others.
And quite frankly, in nova and human form a PB brings a LOT more AoE to the table than a stalker does, in dwarf is miles more survivable, and in general are much more welcome on teams.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Quote:
That was Castle, actually. And as he says there:|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
I'm just curious Flux, what's your take on PBs compared to stalkers? Because Posi has come out and said that the Stalker is broken because of the way game mechanics impact it. Specifically referring to them being great at slow (because of 6 second re-hide and long activating assassin strike) Single Target combat but the game being built around fast AoE combat.
Near as I can tell that's as close as any dev has come to saying one AT is behind the others. |
Quote:
| In the past, I've addressed this to a degree by increasing their damage, adding additional critical avenues and even adding a Fear debuff to their Assassin Strike abilities. At this point, they are about as strong as we want to make them, which means any further improvements have to lie in addressing those systemic problems. Frankly, that means it is a LOT more complicated and manpower consuming. |
In fact like white dwarf is a trap for PBs, I'd posit hide/AS are a trap for stalkers. Given their actual survivability (two or more times better than a squishy's) and their high offense without hide/AS, many are better off using a faster-animating attack out of hide for the guaranteed critical, then staying in the fight and scrapping it out rather than trying to re-hide mid battle and AS more.
I'd like to say that it's not the AT's fault if people are trying to play it the wrong way, but actually, stalkers strongly encourage you to play them the wrong way with their design, so -that- might be a serious problem with the AT. If you adapt to the reality of the gameplay, though, their numerical performance potential is far higher than most people want to believe and while it does lag a bit behind scrappers and brutes, that's like saying a corvette lags behind a ferrari.
Quote:
| And quite frankly, in nova and human form a PB brings a LOT more AoE to the table than a stalker does, in dwarf is miles more survivable, and in general are much more welcome on teams. |
As for teams... teams don't like stalkers, in my experience, because stalkers don't play like teammates. If stalkers stopped stealthing to the objectives and completing them without telling anyone or waiting for the team to play the mission, teams might like stalkers better
The only complaints I hear about stalker teammates ingame, in short, are about how they act, not how they perform.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
I think, Flux, that with your last reply I see where you're coming from. I still disagree that it's "the worst," as we'd (IMHO) really have to go, not by AT, but by powerset combination. And even then we're going to have five (Human, Human/Dwarf, Human/Nova, Triform, Dwarf/Nova focused) "sets" for each Kheld.
I think we're just going to have to disagree on quite a bit here. You don't see the flexibility, for instance, where I see *more* flexibility than I do on several tanks, for instance. Most tank sets (for instance) don't have a ranged component - the tank's option, even if it's going to be a troublesome enemy, is "run in and hit it." My PB, however, has ranged, melee and control options (as well as "pets," though I hate calling seekers that.) I can separate the enemy and take them out the way *I* want, or hop into melee and deal with them, or hop into melee and use hard and soft controls on them - I've got several ways of handling the situation.
I'm half wondering if you're looking at this solely at a high level or "once you're 50" situation, too. It's something that happens a lot on the boards. (And something that irritates the heck out of me - like someone asking for info on a powerset and being given a purpled-out level 50 build - that's great, thanks, but what do I do at 20 and what can I expect?) I'm wondering that because (aside from the sliding back into IO references) of your comments about how tanks can be offensively. Yep, tanks can be *great* offensively - once they've grown into the 30s, generally. That AOE capability varies by set, admittedly, but they're often not touching it until 35 or 38 (or an early Shield Charge.) Of course, then it needs slotting and whatnot... Meanwhile I've had some pretty good capability on my PB since level 6, if I've taken Nova.
I'm just thinking we're looking at the two completely differently. (Well, obviously, but I mean I'm looking at it from "whole journey," you're looking at "at 50.")
I'll also admit I approach the game thoroughly differently from most who post, from appearances. I don't care about XP/sec or DPS or whatnot. Am I moving fast enough to keep me happy? Am I dying enough to get frustrated? If the answer to the first is yes and the second is no - hey, great. If I'm keeping just busy enough, too - bots/FF, for instance, is a powerful combo, but nearly turned me off MMs completely because it bored me *stiff.* People praise Illusion but I can't stand it. I cannot stand VEATs - well, let me amend that, I've gotten to like my crab, but not because of numeric performance, rather that it doesn't want to rely on not-enough-stealth (that doesn't come back fast enough) and feels like what it should be, even if I still hate the wasted levels before 24.
Small pause in my PB's attack chain? Quick drop to human to buff, or check/combine insps and move on. I make use of it, so it doesn't bother me in the least. *shrug* Some people can't stand not having damage going out every possible millisecond. It's not how I play.
(Side note to Gavin - Actually, the devs have mentioned Blasters being underperforming - which is why we've had two versions of Defiance. I want to say they still aren't happy with them, but don't have a quote to back it up. What they have stated as "just right" for the AT? Defenders. Though that's been a while.)
Thanks and thanks (one to each of you).
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Was wondering how well PBs and WSs work on just SOs. How do they compare? And if anyone has a build for eithier would you mind posting it? Much appreciated.