Quote:
Cold Domination can pull off higher damage with high recharge builds because you can stack Sleet. Here's the post in Turbo_Ski's guide that explains some of that.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Dog
Can anyone confirm something I was told in the game recently?
I have an Ill/Rad controller and was told Ill/Cold was better. The reasoning, I was informed, was that while both can get perma-PA, that /Cold has greater damage advantage, namely /rad at about 260 where /cold is at about 400 dps. Anyone play ill/cold and have conformation of this? |
I believe the short version is because resistance debuffs are resisted by resistance (oh boy), stacking -res powers makes them more effective. The second one is less resisted than the first. Radiation can't do that alone.
The recharge:duration on Lingering Radiation is much better than Benumb. Using radiation, you only need about 100% global recharge to keep your target's regen floored. You need about 200% to do that with Cold. Cold has all these wonderful debuffs rolled into two powers instead of Radiation's three, so I believe that's the compromise.
I would bet Cold has a much higher damage potential with a build heavily invested in recharge. At SOs, I bet Radiation is better. I don't know where they would meet in the middle though.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
One significant problem is that Cold does not have any powers with a Recharge boost, compared to AM's 30% recharge. That means that you have to build sets to provide 30% more Recharge than Radiation. Pretty much the only way to do that is to load up on a bunch of the really expensive purple sets. Cold does have more places to put a Luck of the Gambler Recharge, however.
So it will be a lot more expensive to get an Illusion/Cold to perma-PA than an Illusion/Rad.
Another aspect is that Cold does not have a self-heal. If PA is drawing the aggro, hopefully you won't need it.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Hmmm, maybe /cold has a little more to it than I realized. So assuming I was to deck out a /cold and obtain perma-PA, is there any disadvantage to cold as far as being able to solo. I am thinking of AV's in particular.
Just from what I've learned here and from the conversation I had in-game I see the potential in the combo now, but I still wonder why everyone hasn't jumped over to /cold if it doesn't have some glaring weakness.
I will definitely read that other thread. Thank you both for the comments, (and link).
/Cold's Weaknesses:
Single target only until 35
More expensive to perma-PA
Is possible to have everything run out of Sleet
No Accelerate Metabolism to help while leveling
That's about all I can see, Ill/Rad will be easier to level up, team with and to slot up wheras Ill/Cold will be better against single, tough targets after getting alot of recharge.
Quote:
No self-heal (as I said earlier).|
Originally Posted by Kiwi
/Cold's Weaknesses:
Single target only until 35 More expensive to perma-PA Is possible to have everything run out of Sleet No Accelerate Metabolism to help while leveling That's about all I can see, Ill/Rad will be easier to level up, team with and to slot up wheras Ill/Cold will be better against single, tough targets after getting alot of recharge. |
Late blooming set -- You don't get the best two powers until Sleet at 35 and Heat Loss at 38. (Storm gets Freezing Rain at 16, and Rad is an early blooming set.)
More single-target focused: May be better than Rad on single tough targets, but Rad is better AoE.
Rad is less "maintenance" because of the foe-anchored AoE Debuffs, while the Cold debuffs have to be re-cast.
Rad's Ally-only powers are a rez and a body-blowing-up thingy. Cold has Frostworks and two shields that are ally only . . . but can be used on Phantasm.
Cold has no damage in the secondary. (Weak point, since Rad's only damage is Fallout, which most people skip.)
Frankly, you can't really say one is "better" than the other. They are different enough that each secondary creates a different experience. Cold has two powers in common with Storm, and three ally only powers -- you don't get to the really good stuff until level 35 and 38. But once you get a high Recharge build, it can handle a heck of a lot. Rad is a little more flexible and probably easier to play well. It is certainly cheaper to make a Perma-PA build.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Above someone says Rad would be easier to "team with" and I'm not sure what the basis of that statement is. There's hardly a team friendlier buff/debuff set than Cold.
My own 2 inf is that an Ill/Cold (which I've never made, though I have experience with both) would have a higher upside than an Ill/Rad. Get the mega recharge (and it ain't cheap by any standard) to perma PA, Benumb and Heat Loss, and I'd say that's a better toolkit for AV/Hero/GMs than Rad. Benumb especially offers debuffs (-Special most significantly) that Rad simply doesn't have. With Heat Loss + multiple Sleets, Cold creates a far more devastating Resistance debuff than Rad can. Really the only aspect Rad debuffs over Cold is -ToHit, which is almost irrelevant against those critters.
On another thread here, that I started about trouble soloing Lord Recluse, someone mentioned Baphomet as problematic too due to his heal. Benumb just might make that less of an issue (don't know for sure).
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
For the specific task of soloing AVs or charting on the kill-a-pylon contest Cold Domination is probably "better" than Radiation. It is a very single-target oriented combo and nothing really competes with some of it's monster single target debuffs. But IMO Illusion/Radiation itself is an already grossly overrated combo. The fact is Illusion Control is so good any combo you pair it with is guaranteed to be good at something.
Quote:
+1. [/thread] If I were still in my crack level playing days, I would definitely have a Ill/cold. It's likely 3rd in my list of Ill builds I would do. Ill/rad and Ill/ta being above it.
|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
For the specific task of soloing AVs or charting on the kill-a-pylon contest Cold Domination is probably "better" than Radiation. It is a very single-target oriented combo and nothing really competes with some of it's monster single target debuffs. But IMO Illusion/Radiation itself is an already grossly overrated combo. The fact is Illusion Control is so good any combo you pair it with is guaranteed to be good at something.
|
i have a lvl 50 ill/cold/stone troller who is approx 85% slotted
he currently has 87.5% without hasten, 157.5% with hasten and with that i have approx a 9 sec downtime on PA and hasten, if i get about 30% more rech i will have perma hasten and be about 2 sec short of perma PA
my final build once all is said and done will be at 205% with hasten or 135% without
i solved the self heal problem of cold by taking earths embrace from the stone mastery, which i will also be able to perma with my complete build
if anyone wants to see my build just send me a PM and i can put up the mids chunk
Quote:
I already have the Illusion/Rad and the Illusion/TA and an Illusion/Storm all at 50 on various servers. Just because I couldn't resist, I'm working on an Illusion/Cold, who is 28 at the moment. In the lower levels, It is pretty disappointing. Two single-target debuffs, two ally shields and Snow Storm added to my standard Illusion build. I know the good stuff comes at 35 and 38, but it is slow going to get there. I may very well change my mind later, but so far, Ill/Storm was more fun than Ill/Cold. And safer.|
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
+1. [/thread] If I were still in my crack level playing days, I would definitely have a Ill/cold. It's likely 3rd in my list of Ill builds I would do. Ill/rad and Ill/ta being above it.
|
For the APP, I will probably go with Ice. Not only does it fit the theme, but it has the single-target blast for the good attack chain, two AoE damage powers, Hibernate and a defense-based shield.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Quote:
I don't feel Illusion/Rad is overrated. So far, I have Ill/Rad, Ill/Storm and Ill/TA at 50, an Ill/Kin in the mid 30s and as I said above, I'm working on an Ill/Cold. I also have quite a few other controllers at 50 and lower levels -- I have taken every controller primary other than Electric past 40, and my Elec/Rad is 35. Illusion/Radiation is still my favorite due to its flexibility to deal with almost every type of situation. My Ill/Rad is the first character I pull out to do anything new or tough. It may be that I find the Ill/Cold to be awesome once it hits 50 and then is fully slotted, but so far, it doesn't come close to Ill/Rad.
|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
For the specific task of soloing AVs or charting on the kill-a-pylon contest Cold Domination is probably "better" than Radiation. It is a very single-target oriented combo and nothing really competes with some of it's monster single target debuffs. But IMO Illusion/Radiation itself is an already grossly overrated combo. The fact is Illusion Control is so good any combo you pair it with is guaranteed to be good at something.
|
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
I want to thank everyone for the great and very helpful feedback. And that Guide to Cold Dominating is very useful, thanks Gilia.
I think it's time to go play in mids and see what it looks like at 50.
The only really bad part is that all the debuffs on cold require a hit check. Benumb and Heat Loss will miss every so often even with sleet stacking.
Subjectively bad is my estimate cost for a build I got to 211% recharge. At that recharge PA's recharge is at 59 seconds and Heat loss is very near perma (for the buff not the debuffs) at recharge of 94 seconds.
Nobody mentions this thread when people ask about how good it is.
Quote:
lingering radiation also requires a tohit check as well, but has the toggle which does some good -def to help with that|
Originally Posted by Late2Party
The only really bad part is that all the debuffs on cold require a hit check. Benumb and Heat Loss will miss every so often even with sleet stacking.
Subjectively bad is my estimate cost for a build I got to 211% recharge. At that recharge PA's recharge is at 59 seconds and Heat loss is very near perma (for the buff not the debuffs) at recharge of 94 seconds. Nobody mentions this thread when people ask about how good it is. |
cold while it requires a tohit check on benumb and heat loss, it has the infrigiate for a quick shot of -def and sleet pushing huge -def out especially if you have it perma'd
Quote:
According to Turbo_Ski's guide heat loss is auto hit on the target and requires a check for any surrounding targets. I can not verify it except to say I can not remember ever not hitting atleast 1 target with it. |
Originally Posted by Late2Party
The only really bad part is that all the debuffs on cold require a hit check. Benumb and Heat Loss will miss every so often even with sleet stacking.
Subjectively bad is my estimate cost for a build I got to 211% recharge. At that recharge PA's recharge is at 59 seconds and Heat loss is very near perma (for the buff not the debuffs) at recharge of 94 seconds. Nobody mentions this thread when people ask about how good it is. |
Your build hits the same recharges mine does and I believe choosing the recharge incarnate enhancement will make heat loss perma.
Quote:
heat loss has 2 components, theres 1 component in which you apply the power to yourself and allies around yourself, and then theres the 1 component of it applying to the target and aoe of the target|
Originally Posted by Scrappy_NA
According to Turbo_Ski's guide heat loss is auto hit on the target and requires a check for any surrounding targets. I can not verify it except to say I can not remember ever not hitting atleast 1 target with it.
Your build hits the same recharges mine does and I believe choosing the recharge incarnate enhancement will make heat loss perma. |
if you use it on 1 target and standing next to said target, you get 2 applications of the power on self, 1 for the self buff component, and 1 for the power actually hitting the enemy
if you stand next to an enemy and only get 1 stack of the power, then it missed the target but you will still get the self/team buff component
the self/team buff component is always auto granted because if the target is killed before it hits, then you will still get 1 application of the power from the self/team buff part
i hope i explained it well enough, as i know sometimes i cant get the right words across
Yes I meant the debuff portion when I stated all the debuffs. It is a very marginalized balancing issue. Infridigidate could arguably be auto hit (especially since it's single target), or at least get an accuracy higher than 1.0. It is primarily a single target defense debuff that can't stack. There something non logical about a damageless defense debuff needing a hit check.
This is unrelated to the thread at hand however. I just wanted to contrast that most of rads debuffs are auto hit.
If we're talking about IOed builds, you really cannot judge Cold Domination until you reach high levels and start IOing. Cold is a monstrously powerful set on its own turf. In a single-target contest I'm positive nothing can touch it; Benumb, in particular, is a game changer in that specific scenario. Whether that means Cold Dom is "more powerful" than other sets depends entirely on how much weight you give to the ability to fight single hard targets. For this reason I find the current hype surrounding Cold Dom somewhat overdone.
Illusion/Radiation is also a very powerful combo but IMO, like Ill/Cold, the combo isn't so much better than every other Illusion/ combo that it justifies the sheer numbers of Ill/Rads out there or the somewhat ubiqitous belief that Ill/Rad is the "best" Illusion combo.
One point in favor of Ill/Cold over Ill/Rad though is that both Illusion and Cold benefit tremendously from lots of Recharge, where Radiation really does not. Since Cold was balanced around its long Recharge times, cutting them back cause it to gain ground very quickly on other sets when the IO game begins. Perma-Benumb and Heat Loss (at least the endless +endurance part of it) are huge boons.
Cold is far more than a single target specialist. Sleet by itself is enough to shed that notion, then there's Heat Loss and Snow Storm. Cold is a great single target debuffer (surpassed only by Poison) and as strong as any other for AOE debuffs. That's why Cold is by no means overhyped.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
the /cold ally buffs are also very nice as well to help buff teammates or to keep the phantasm alive, a slotted frostwork will net the person who gets it around +940 hp at lvl 50
Quote:
My only issue with Ill/storm is that I still haven't come to terms with Hurricane and Ill/storm feels like it needs it. I guess I prefer more straightforward powers that don't force me to think about them while I'm using them.
|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
I don't feel Illusion/Rad is overrated. So far, I have Ill/Rad, Ill/Storm and Ill/TA at 50, an Ill/Kin in the mid 30s and as I said above, I'm working on an Ill/Cold. I also have quite a few other controllers at 50 and lower levels -- I have taken every controller primary other than Electric past 40, and my Elec/Rad is 35. Illusion/Radiation is still my favorite due to its flexibility to deal with almost every type of situation. My Ill/Rad is the first character I pull out to do anything new or tough. It may be that I find the Ill/Cold to be awesome once it hits 50 and then is fully slotted, but so far, it doesn't come close to Ill/Rad.
|
If you think /Cold is strong now wait till i19 comes out. The extra -recharge from the Spiritual slotting will make a huge difference. Between soft capping range def and getting enough -recharge you end up cutting a few corners. With the new Alpha slot pretty much all of those shortcuts should be covered over.
The free Stamina kinda falls by the way side, it's main benefit being either a IO mule or freeing up space for another pool set to be a mule.
Quote:
Hurricane can be a very effective defensive power as well as a positioning tool. Hurricane is a tricky power to use well. I found that I had to do a few things: (a) set up a bind to make it easy to turn on and off quickly (I have it bound to button 5 on my mouse), (b) only use it when I really need it or in places where walls prevent excessive scatter, and (c) PRACTICE learning how to "herdicane" and how to judge just the right distance to use the "debuff kiss" where the ToHit Debuff applies without the repel/knockback.|
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
My only issue with Ill/storm is that I still haven't come to terms with Hurricane and Ill/storm feels like it needs it. I guess I prefer more straightforward powers that don't force me to think about them while I'm using them.
|
Personally, I feel Super Speed makes it easier. It is handy that Super Speed also combines with Steamy Mist (or Arctic Fog) to provide PvE invisibility.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Quote:
Heat Loss has a target cap of 3.
|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
Cold is far more than a single target specialist. Sleet by itself is enough to shed that notion, then there's Heat Loss and Snow Storm. Cold is a great single target debuffer (surpassed only by Poison) and as strong as any other for AOE debuffs. That's why Cold is by no means overhyped.
|
Can anyone confirm something I was told in the game recently?
I have an Ill/Rad controller and was told Ill/Cold was better. The reasoning, I was informed, was that while both can get perma-PA, that /Cold has greater damage advantage, namely /rad at about 260 where /cold is at about 400 dps.
Anyone play ill/cold and have conformation of this?