Resistance Phasing in New Maria Jenkins Arc?
By
GavinRuneblade,
Posted on: 2010-11-09 13:33 in Player Questions
I agree that these mobs seem out of balance. Their targeting drone buff gives them around a 50% chance to hit players who have soft-capped defenses. Taking over 1000% more damage because of one bad game mechanic and poor balancing design is frustrating. On top of that, their stealth functions unlike any other stealth power in the game, allowing them to become completely invisible while in combat. Developers need to play their own game to see what frustration enemy groups like this can cause.
You can still hit them with the right AoEs.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Finally running through the new Maria Jenkins arc, and I ran into the Resistance with my Blaster during the third or so mission.
I noticed they all had Targeting Drone, which meant no stealth. Seemed a little over the top for every mob in sight to have it, but oh well. However, every Resistance mob on the map was also dropping out of sight and then back. Popping yellow inspirations helped not at all for this, so my Blaster had a bit of an issue handling these groups: you can't really defeat what you can't see, and Blasters like to defeat fast. Targeting Drone also made it so the defense I had wasn't helping much. Is this WAI? Seems a bit overkill to have them be able to see through stealth, and then either phase or have so much stealth that I can't even target them when they're right on top of my Blaster. I can see this being a pain for melee ATs, but they can probably last through the stealth portion better than a squishier AT. Now don't get me wrong. I don't mind a challenge (I've fought Carnies and Malta with this guy, and enjoy the challenge), but this is a bit extreme to make mobs untargetable, even when your perception is buffed. |
I haven't played it yet, so I'll at least SLIGHTLY reserve judgement, but from the description it does sound a bit much.
If the devs are no longer balancing the game toward people playing with SOs but are in fact assuming IO builds, it would be nice if they said so.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Do powers that grant perception help against the stealth the resistance has? Or is it some magic you just can't see me power?
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They are still balancing around SO's.|
Originally Posted by Wavicle
I haven't played it yet, so I'll at least SLIGHTLY reserve judgement, but from the description it does sound a bit much.
If the devs are no longer balancing the game toward people playing with SOs but are in fact assuming IO builds, it would be nice if they said so. |
I have played those missions, multiple times, and it's not over the top. It's a refreshing change. Yes, it's very hard for some AT's. Lots of enemies are like that; easy for some AT's or powersets and hard for others.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
do they stop phasing if you Mez them?
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Played this mission with a team of 4 a couple of days ago, and it was one of the most annoying things I've done in the game. Worse than Caltrop spamming from KoA. It did improve when I got the +Perception buff from Secondary Mutation, so at least one of us could hit them while stealthed...
However, it turned out that Smith was not a time-travelling Terminator
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You can only hit them with AOEs if you target them when they're not stealthed out. I managed to make this work with my AR Blaster by firing the M80 and then Full Auto, which kept hitting them as they stealthed out of sight. After that, however, I was SOL until they came back into sight. Even with an accuracy inspiration fired, I could not target them when they were right in front of me. |
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
You can still hit them with the right AoEs.
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If you're talking PbAOE, not every powerset has those, and it's a bit iffy to design mobs with that in mind.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
They are still balancing around SO's.
I have played those missions, multiple times, and it's not over the top. It's a refreshing change. Yes, it's very hard for some AT's. Lots of enemies are like that; easy for some AT's or powersets and hard for others. |
It's the stealth or phasing or whatever the heck it is that is over the top (I'm sure it's stealth, but for them to be that stealthed--more than a covert ops or whatever from Longbow--means that it is a very strong stealth ability). Being unable to target every mob in the middle of a fight is annoying for everyone to face, and downright harsh for some ATs. That's not really good design.
Obviously, that's my own two cents, but it all does add up. Being able to stealth in and out before a fight is an interesting mechanic, and adds a tactical consideration like when fighting the Carnies (which this Blaster has also faced just fine). But midfight for an entire mob is ridiculous. People already complain about how Illusionists "cheat" and use some powers while phased. This is basically an entire mob phasing out.
I don't know at what level of perception the stealth goes away, either. It has to be pretty high, as a yellow inspiration didn't help at all (and it does when Night Widows toss their Smoke Grenades out).
In the end, this design is a lot of stuff that people don't like facing already in small bunches (Illusionists, Night Widows, Malta, Nemesis with Vengeance stacked, etc.). When people complain about those, I can note that tactics need to change and that it's a challenge. This is far enough along beyond those mobs that I have to question how these are designed.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Actually I was talking about everything. If there is only one then you have to use things like sleet, Ice Storm, Rain of Fire, blizzard, etc. As well as PBAoEs that don't require a target.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
You can only hit them with AOEs if you target them when they're not stealthed out. I managed to make this work with my AR Blaster by firing the M80 and then Full Auto, which kept hitting them as they stealthed out of sight. After that, however, I was SOL until they came back into sight. Even with an accuracy inspiration fired, I could not target them when they were right in front of me.
If you're talking PbAOE, not every powerset has those, and it's a bit iffy to design mobs with that in mind. |
But if there are two+ they tend to stealth out of synch and they tend to group up unlike Longbow eagles who flee and spread out. So always attacking the visible one with any AoE you get one or two of the stealthed ones as well. The larger the group the more likely one or two will be visible to target. Of course that also means the more likely several will be pounding on you.
Overall I have mixed feelings about them. I loathe the cheats that game designers use to make things "harder" such as the level slider. Running against family at +4 levels is boring. Yes they hit more often and harder and I hit less and not as hard so my chance of defeat is higher. But it's not "harder" it is more grindy. I do the exact same thing more times that is the ONLY change when you alter the difficulty level. Against enemies like this, the game is harder. You have to alter your strategy, slow down, and work for the win.
THIS is exactly the sort of thing I want more of. Rularuu, Malta, Carnies, Resistance, Ghouls these are some of my favorite enemies.
That said, I'm with you 100% that their stealth numbers are a bit too high. I'm ok with them having stalker PvP levels of stealth so you can only see them from 10' away. Fine, there is a precedent for that. The total stealth they have is in my opinion a cop-out. Another cheat no different than just giving them more HP and calling that "harder". And I think the uptime for the stealth is a bit too high. Maybe it's ok for a lieutenant, but not for minions.
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| In the end, this design is a lot of stuff that people don't like facing already in small bunches (Illusionists, Night Widows, Malta, Nemesis with Vengeance stacked, etc.). When people complain about those, I can note that tactics need to change and that it's a challenge. This is far enough along beyond those mobs that I have to question how these are designed. |
I think toning down the stealth magnitude a few notches and either increasing the recharge by 3-5 seconds and/or dropping the duration 2-3 seconds would go a long way.
I know those seem like small times, but it is enough for 2 attacks per cycle. That's a big shift.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Mmm...
I wish developers would add challenge in rational and balanced manner. Not do less than professional stunts like the resistance stealth and their exceptional bonus to accuracy.
The game when adding challenge, need to consider that there are 2 basic types of protections, conditional and unconditional.
Do notice that quite a great deal of game challenge; disproportionately impacts conditionally protected ATs. For example, all mobs now, minion or better have a form of mez attack. Their first attack is always an attack that is right out a mez or has a mez as a secondary effect. Now lets look at this practice for a moment...
An unconditinally protected AT, is simply impervious to mez attacks, or at least it would take a large number of mobs concentrating their attacks on them, which almost never happens, and reason why melee can do +4/x8/Y/Y as often as they do. So the challenge and threat is basically zip!
A Conditionally protected AT, with a Zero MAG resistance to any status effect, has a 25% chance to resist a minion's attack, and then zip for anything tougher. It seems to me, this simple situation gives support ATs considerably much more challenge, than their melee cousins. Of course, this total vulnerability, can be compensated (ha ha ha ha) by the use of break-free inspirations, which becomes a must at every engagement, since every engagement has status effects spammed; frankly this is not a good practice; I thought inspirations were supposed to be used for moments of epic significance and not as if they were bubble gum!
Now lets not sell short unconditionals! After all they can area hold a bunch of mobs! That is awesome, right?
Lets put some math to this...
lets keep this simple, to a solo situation to keep statistics simple
Mob consists of 1 boss, 2 LTs, and 4 Minions for analysis sakes...
The strongest single hold is MAG 3, and area hold is MAG 2.
Now what are the chances to resist a MAG 3 attack based on your own resistance?
MAG 3 Attack vs MAG 3 resistance: 75% to resist, you actually can get lucky an d zap a boss in one hit!
MAG 3 Attack on MAG 2 resistance: 50% to resist, you have a 50/50 chance in bringing down the LT in one hit!
MAG 3 Attack on MAG 1 resistance: 25% to resist, you have a 75% chance on bringing down the minion in one hit!
MAG 3 attack on MAG 0 (essentially any support AT): 0%, auto toast
MAG 2 attack on MAG 0 (essentially any support AT): 0%, auto toast
MAG 1 attack on MAG 0 (essentially any support AT): 25% chance, not encouraging isn't it?
For reference purposes, a Scrapper with MAG 7:
2 x MAG 3 attacks: 100% chance to resist
3 x MAG 3 attacks: 50% chance to resist (that is getting hit by 3 bosses at the same time)
Brute MAG 9:
2 x MAG 3 attacks: 100% chance to resist
3 x MAG 3 attacks: 75% chance to resist
Tanker MAG 12:
4 x MAG 3 Attacks: 75% chance to resist (that is getting hit by 4 bosses at the same time)
Also consider the MAG effect of mobs:
Minion - Status effect MAG 1 (there are a few exceptions with stronger values)
LT - MAG 2
Boss - MAG 3
So getting back to condtional ubberness...
Given Controller initiates hostilities, in an ambush: mobs initiates, and Controller gets no chance to protect themselves at all.
Round 1: Controller fires an Area Hold, MAG 2 ( she will follow with a MAG 3 single to Boss, if around)
Minion has a 50% chance to resist, LTs have a 75%, and Boss has 100%
So of the 4 Minions, 2 LTs, 1 Boss, we neutralize...
2 Minions, and 1 Lt
Coming at you is one Boss, 1 LT and 2 Minions. If they all use a mez on you, you can't resist the Boss and LTs and you have 2 chances at 25% to resist the minions efforts. Not good, inspiration time ah?
Round 2: Inspiration taken, mobs close in!
round 3, personal mez on boss... Boss is suffering effects from the MAG 2 Hold, and you just added 3 more for a 5 effect. He has a 25% chance to resist, the odds are on your side!
But now you have a LT and 2 Minions on your face and having a good ole day, you are bleeding hit points in a serious basis, next round they gonna use some attacks with secondary mez effects...
Round 4, since you spent a round popping an inspiration, your area hold is back! So now you stack a MAG 2 on the 2 minions and the LT, so they each are at MAG 4 effect, its curtains for the Minions and the LT has a 25% chance to resist.
So in practicallity it ook you 4 rounds to achieve protection, used one inspiration, and you finally have cotnrol of the situation...
Frankly is control an effective protection? Or as effective as some make it out to be?
Food for thought, I agree, balancing under this conditions is really tough...
Stormy
OK, so...
First off, you guys are saying they are NOT phased, they are just Stealthed very effectively.
Normal +Per may not be enough to see them, but stacking it up will let you see them.
They can still be effected by PBAoEs, Location based AoEs, and AoEs targetted on nearby unstealthed mobs.
They tend not to all stealth at once and they tend to stand near each other.
I would still like to know if mezzing them Stops the stealthing.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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With no buffs of any kind, it clears my target every time they fade. When I have Tactics on I can still target and attack them the entire time.|
Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
Do powers that grant perception help against the stealth the resistance has? Or is it some magic you just can't see me power?
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
I would still like to know if mezzing them Stops the stealthing.
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Originally Posted by Master-Blade
With no buffs of any kind, it clears my target every time they fade. When I have Tactics on I can still target and attack them the entire time.
I just tested this.. They still fade, even while Held, and they all fade in and out at the same interval. |
Ok, so they have a Stealth power that can be penetrated with standard +Per toggles, and like Carnie Illusionists it keeps working even when they're mezzed. But it is Stealth, not Phase.
Sounds like LESS of a pain than the Carnies.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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I just monitored them with the [Power Analyzer mk III]|
Originally Posted by Wavicle
Ok, so they have a Stealth power that can be penetrated with standard +Per toggles, and like Carnie Illusionists it keeps working even when they're mezzed. But it is Stealth, not Phase.
Sounds like LESS of a pain than the Carnies. |
Apparently they have a power called [Unreliable Stealth] which gives them a 45ft Stealth Radius. It seems to automatically toggle on/off every 5.5s (roughly), regardless of status.
Long as they don't have Caltrops I think we'll be ok.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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As I mentioned in another thread, any of the multiple flight powers, including temporary flight packs like the [Raptor Pack] will easily free you from [Caltrops] (providing you aren't also under the -fly effects of a [Web Grendade]).|
Originally Posted by Wavicle
Long as they don't have Caltrops I think we'll be ok.
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Carrying one around makes [Caltrops] a non-issue.
The devs seem to be mixing things up with the new enemy groups so that the traditional solutions don't work. For example, these high-level Resistance types have a higher-than-50% base chance of hitting (68.5% for the +1 LT I examined), a periodic 45-foot stealth radius, a periodic 30% melee/ranged defense, and an 80-foot perception radius.
All of these can be overcome. For example, one person on your team running Tactics will counter the stealth bonus for the entire team; two will counter the defense bonus as well. The traditional Super Speed + IO stealth won't cut it, but throw the pool power Stealth into the mix, and you're back to being invisible -- and a Stalker's Hide or an illusionist's Superior Invisiblity still work fine.
The softcap for a high-level Resistance LT may be 63.5%, but that's easy enough to reach on a team with a decent mix of Leadership powers -- I've been on teams recently where I was well over that softcap with my toggles off. Solo, you can do it on an AT with a defense godmode such as SR's formerly-useless Elude.
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I actually don't mind the stealth mechanic per se. It is the strength that I despise. If you don't have +perception, you can't target them when they are right on top of you. That is ridiculous. I don't particularly care that there are +perception IOs and powers in the game, either, as not every character is going to have those. Some of my characters do, some don't. I shouldn't have to be this neutered by a common mob. My blaster has an easier time with all the Maria Jenkins EBs/AVs than he did with these guys.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
That said, I'm with you 100% that their stealth numbers are a bit too high. I'm ok with them having stalker PvP levels of stealth so you can only see them from 10' away. Fine, there is a precedent for that. The total stealth they have is in my opinion a cop-out. Another cheat no different than just giving them more HP and calling that "harder". And I think the uptime for the stealth is a bit too high. Maybe it's ok for a lieutenant, but not for minions.
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I like your idea for shifting it, actually. I really don't mind the mechanic, I can roll with it, but to make them be that level of stealth is over the top.
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I think toning down the stealth magnitude a few notches and either increasing the recharge by 3-5 seconds and/or dropping the duration 2-3 seconds would go a long way. I know those seem like small times, but it is enough for 2 attacks per cycle. That's a big shift. |
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
OK, so...
First off, you guys are saying they are NOT phased, they are just Stealthed very effectively. Normal +Per may not be enough to see them, but stacking it up will let you see them. They can still be effected by PBAoEs, Location based AoEs, and AoEs targetted on nearby unstealthed mobs. They tend not to all stealth at once and they tend to stand near each other. I would still like to know if mezzing them Stops the stealthing |
Perhaps I was getting unlucky, but all Resistance in the same mob were stealthing at the exact same time, so the only other people I could target in the area were in different mobs (which I most certainly did not want to aggro as well). And with the new mob AI we have, mobs can get pretty spread out.
As for mezzing, they still stealthed while mezzed. I believe the Resistance Lieutenants are also resistant to stuns and holds (I had a hard time determining this, but I can say for sure that Beanbag did not stun a LT., and probably the same for a Cryo hold). So yay, that makes this encounter even more fun. *sarcastic thumbs up*
I don't mind a challenge, but sheesh, let loose a little bit. Targeting Drone and a more toned down stealth would still make these guys tricky and interesting. The Mez protection and high stealth level is just... lame.
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
Ok, so they have a Stealth power that can be penetrated with standard +Per toggles, and like Carnie Illusionists it keeps working even when they're mezzed. But it is Stealth, not Phase.
Sounds like LESS of a pain than the Carnies. |
These guys make you lose targeting when they stealth, they can shoot you while stealthed, they're mez resistant, and they eat defense for breakfast. I'll take Carnies over that any day.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Finally running through the new Maria Jenkins arc, and I ran into the Resistance with my Blaster during the third or so mission.
I noticed they all had Targeting Drone, which meant no stealth. Seemed a little over the top for every mob in sight to have it, but oh well. However, every Resistance mob on the map was also dropping out of sight and then back. Popping yellow inspirations helped not at all for this, so my Blaster had a bit of an issue handling these groups: you can't really defeat what you can't see, and Blasters like to defeat fast. Targeting Drone also made it so the defense I had wasn't helping much.
Is this WAI? Seems a bit overkill to have them be able to see through stealth, and then either phase or have so much stealth that I can't even target them when they're right on top of my Blaster. I can see this being a pain for melee ATs, but they can probably last through the stealth portion better than a squishier AT.
Now don't get me wrong. I don't mind a challenge (I've fought Carnies and Malta with this guy, and enjoy the challenge), but this is a bit extreme to make mobs untargetable, even when your perception is buffed.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory