Cornering the market
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-11-09 08:35 in ALL ACCESS Gameplay Technical Issues Bugs
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Ahhh, your grasp of market mechanics is flawed... HIGHEST bid is fill first. If I bid at 1.1 Bill and someone else bids at 1.3 Bill their bid will fill first if someone lists at 1.1 Bill, 1.0 bill or any other amount below their bid.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
okay, for high priced / rare items you only need to bid a few times. a 100 billion war chest would easily accomplish this. a bid for 1 billion, 1.1 billion 1.2 billion,.... even some at half a bill, why not.
the theory is most people will price the one they get at 1.9 bill, or 1.5 bill for fast sells. You buy those (1st bid at any price is 1st filled) and relist it at 2 bill. Anybody trying to bid 1.5 bill, or 1.9 bill, has to wait for all of your 1.5 bill, or 1.9 bill bids to fill first. If they are building for a toon they will probably get impatient and bid the 2 bill. Kaching. (this kaching thing = the sound a cash register makes in old movies) So, you have effectively cornered the market and are making money off every one of these items that move. As far as where do I get a 100 billion, well, some of these crusty old marketeers have that and lots more. And once they have that much they corner market after market after market. Niches, that is what they are called in the marketeer parlance. (I included the selling information above as a bonus. Thanks for playing) |
But nice try.
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Why not? Because the presence of existing two billion inf bids means that your lower bids will never fill. You'd know this, if you understood how the market works. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
okay, for high priced / rare items you only need to bid a few times. a 100 billion war chest would easily accomplish this. a bid for 1 billion, 1.1 billion 1.2 billion,.... even some at half a bill, why not.
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| the theory is most people will price the one they get at 1.9 bill, or 1.5 bill for fast sells. You buy those (1st bid at any price is 1st filled) and relist it at 2 bill. |
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| Anybody trying to bid 1.5 bill, or 1.9 bill, has to wait for all of your 1.5 bill, or 1.9 bill bids to fill first. |
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| If they are building for a toon they will probably get impatient and bid the 2 bill. |
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| Kaching. (this kaching thing = the sound a cash register makes in old movies) So, you have effectively cornered the market and are making money off every one of these items that move. As far as where do I get a 100 billion, well, some of these crusty old marketeers have that and lots more. And once they have that much they corner market after market after market. Niches, that is what they are called in the marketeer parlance. (I included the selling information above as a bonus. Thanks for playing) |
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I totally already totally said that! Sure, you talk more pretty, with your so-called 'paragraphs' and 'evidentiary links' and 'formatting', but I'm gonna ask you this just once: Impish Kat, you and me, are we gonna have a problem? |
Originally Posted by Impish Kat
This is neither:
The OP then re-posted on the same subject in the same forum. Then he came here and cross posted the same thing here. Besides the fact that cross posting is against forum rules, this whole thing is in terribly bad form. . |
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
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No, he isn't. He's really upset that the top-tier rarity IOs aren't available to 'the average gamer'. The original driving force behind his wobbler seems to be that on his (already purpled) brute build, he couldn't instantly replace two sets of Doctored Wounds with two sets of Panacea to get an extra 5% global recharge. I put in the link because otherwise I know you wouldn't believe me.|
Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
The way I read the OP, he isn't complaining about a situation such as PumBumbler describes but where someone buys up all of one product which should be fairly common (EG tier 3 salvage) and price fixes it.
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Honestly, I wouldn't say no to an increase in the supply of PVP and purple IOs (and a reduction in the amount of inf to the game). Given how recently the A-merit price-points were set, though, I guess the devs don't have a problem with the current supply levels.
Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
So many disingenuous posts about market pricing. Please. I did not break it out to every example, because I did not want to posts a wall of text. But to be clear. I bid 10 times at price A. 10 at price B, 10 at price C. Continue this pattern.
Someone lists below price A, my bid is accepted. Someone lists at price B, my bid is accepted. There is a pattern to this.
The underlying theory is that I have lots of bids at lots of price points. Whoever lists anything, my bid will always be accepted and I will always be the one that buys the item. Therefore I have all the items of this type. Then, having cornered the market, I can resell the item at 2 billion. Anyone trying to bid lower than that has to wait for all my bids to fill. Since i have bids at multiple price points, and they were there 1st, the only items currently available on the market for instant purchase are my 2 billion listings.
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Actually, yeah. Perhaps you could enlighten us on the selling side?
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Not sure how rare it is, but let me break it down for you. You have 36 characters on a server, each has market slots, 12 servers, so you have an army of 432 buyers. each has 15 (average) market slots, so you can be placing individual bids for 6480 of these things. Of course, you can bid for more than one at once, so this number is a little low.
That covers the how do I buy them all up phase. Need any help on the selling? |
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A valid point. Keep in mind, I am a 42 month Vet, and this is the only toon I have that has even one purple on it. 99% of the rest of all my toons are SO slots. I farmed for another 2 billion to further enhance this toon (my main) and could not buy 2 enhancers for it. That is exactly my point. After 42 months of play it should not be impossible to have one really tricked out character. If it is, the game designers have screwed something up. That is basic marketing. Here, i am not talking about the fictional marketing in the game. I am talking about the service the "City of" franchise offers to customers. Thank you for making this very important point for me.
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Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
No, he isn't. He's really upset that the top-tier rarity IOs aren't available to 'the average gamer'. The original driving force behind his wobbler seems to be that on his (already purpled) brute build, he couldn't instantly replace two sets of Doctored Wounds with two sets of Panacea to get an extra 5% global recharge. I put in the link because otherwise I know you wouldn't believe me.
Honestly, I wouldn't say no to an increase in the supply of PVP and purple IOs (and a reduction in the amount of inf to the game). Given how recently the A-merit price-points were set, though, I guess the devs don't have a problem with the current supply levels. |
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Unfortunately that is not how the market works. The item selling for the lowest price is purchased by the bid with the highest offer. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
So many disingenuous posts about market pricing. Please. I did not break it out to every example, because I did not want to posts a wall of text. But to be clear. I bid 10 times at price A. 10 at price B, 10 at price C. Continue this pattern.
Someone lists below price A, my bid is accepted. Someone lists at price B, my bid is accepted. There is a pattern to this. |
You didn't specify so I'll assume A < B < C. What will happen is that the first ten items up for bid that are less than C will be purchased by you for C even if the price is less than A or B. After this you will only purchase items that are listed for less than B. Anything listed for more than B (even if less than C) will not be purchased because you've used up those bids. While there are sometimes advantages to placing bids of different values if you want to purchase all of the incoming stock you need bids at the same price.
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| The underlying theory is that I have lots of bids at lots of price points. Whoever lists anything, my bid will always be accepted and I will always be the one that buys the item. Therefore I have all the items of this type. Then, having cornered the market, I can resell the item at 2 billion. Anyone trying to bid lower than that has to wait for all my bids to fill. Since i have bids at multiple price points, and they were there 1st, the only items currently available on the market for instant purchase are my 2 billion listings. |
The problem is the market fee. When flipping (which is essentially what you are doing) your buy price cannot be higher than 90% of your sell price or you'll take a loss. Let us say you are trying to corner the market on one of the really high end PvPIOs. You place your purchase bids at 1.9 billion and you sell the results for 2 billion (making exactly zero profit on the exchange). As soon as someone puts an offer for 1,900,000,001 they will get the next one on the market, not you. If someone else comes and lists their one at 1,999,999,999 the next 2billion bid will go to them, not you.
it is 1.8B to break even, not 1.9B
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You are so very wrong. You still don't understand how buyers are matched with sellers. Repeat after me: The highest bid goes to the lowest sale price. That means that in order for you to always buy the item, you have to always pay more than anyone else is willing to pay. That kind of defeats the purpose of cornering a market and making a profit, doesn't it? Especially when the market eats ten percent of your sale, so when you buy for two billion and resell for two billion, you've lost two hundred million, every time.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
So many disingenuous posts about market pricing. Please. I did not break it out to every example, because I did not want to posts a wall of text. But to be clear. I bid 10 times at price A. 10 at price B, 10 at price C. Continue this pattern.
Someone lists below price A, my bid is accepted. Someone lists at price B, my bid is accepted. There is a pattern to this. The underlying theory is that I have lots of bids at lots of price points. Whoever lists anything, my bid will always be accepted and I will always be the one that buys the item. Therefore I have all the items of this type. Then, having cornered the market, I can resell the item at 2 billion. Anyone trying to bid lower than that has to wait for all my bids to fill. Since i have bids at multiple price points, and they were there 1st, the only items currently available on the market for instant purchase are my 2 billion listings. |
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Market PvP in a nutshell. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Unfortunately that is not how the market works. The item selling for the lowest price is purchased by the bid with the highest offer.
You didn't specify so I'll assume A < B < C. What will happen is that the first ten items up for bid that are less than C will be purchased by you for C even if the price is less than A or B. After this you will only purchase items that are listed for less than B. Anything listed for more than B (even if less than C) will not be purchased because you've used up those bids. While there are sometimes advantages to placing bids of different values if you want to purchase all of the incoming stock you need bids at the same price. The problem with this technique is that in general either you take a loss or you don't corner the market (especially for items which cost 2 billion, for lower items you can make a profit by popping the price for a few hours but it's not sustainable). The problem is the market fee. When flipping (which is essentially what you are doing) your buy price cannot be higher than 90% of your sell price or you'll take a loss. Let us say you are trying to corner the market on one of the really high end PvPIOs. You place your purchase bids at 1.9 billion and you sell the results for 2 billion (making exactly zero profit on the exchange). As soon as someone puts an offer for 1,900,000,001 they will get the next one on the market, not you. If someone else comes and lists their one at 1,999,999,999 the next 2billion bid will go to them, not you. |
I'm soooo copying this to notepad for future use.
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
Blue, you want something that takes either ridiculous luck in PvP, an action few people engage in, or over a month's worth of tip missions, shorter if you invest large amounts of merits and influence.
We know these are the ways to get PvP IO's.
People, especially powergamers like yourself, love the softcapped stuff, and a single enhancement that boosts all defense even by a small amount is highly valuable to them.
So you have a very rare IO, that has high value to people who have built characters toward doing crazy things that also yield rewards for doing them. These people probably have all the easy to get good stuff, but their character remains, and they want the best build they can get, just like you.
They have gotten the stuff they want, keep earning, but have little means or outlet to spend as they've finished getting all but the most difficult loot in the game. Influence has one use, and that is to get stuff. When there's one thing left that they need, players will use up all they have to get that one thing. (CoV/H character don't need to plan for retirement, after all.)
As that thing is valuable and rare, it takes quite a bit for a player to give up their valuable thing. If I got a one in a million drop that I won't get again, or work around a month or more for a drop, why would I give up that thing? If you offered me something I could get even more from. That's the super-expensive prices. The players giving up as much as they can for something they value for the highest possible price.
If YOU got something people would buy for 2 billion, why would you sell for less? What you see is people not selling for less.
*Side note: the +def PvP io sells for 3+ bill off-market, when people feel the thing is worth more than what the market can offer.
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Interestingly enough, I think we're approaching a convergence toward 2 billion. The WTS posts on the Market forums over the last 30 days are intriguing on this. Multiple posts cite a "Buy it Nao" rate of 2.5 billion, with at least 3 auctions starting at 2.1 billion. I think selling off the market is always going to be the preferred choice - to avoid the 200 mill fee - but we're coming down.
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Originally Posted by Seldom
*Side note: the +def PvP io sells for 3+ bill off-market, when people feel the thing is worth more than what the market can offer.
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This is not how the market works. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
So many disingenuous posts about market pricing. Please. I did not break it out to every example, because I did not want to posts a wall of text. But to be clear. I bid 10 times at price A. 10 at price B, 10 at price C. Continue this pattern.
Someone lists below price A, my bid is accepted. Someone lists at price B, my bid is accepted. There is a pattern to this. The underlying theory is that I have lots of bids at lots of price points. Whoever lists anything, my bid will always be accepted and I will always be the one that buys the item. Therefore I have all the items of this type. Then, having cornered the market, I can resell the item at 2 billion. Anyone trying to bid lower than that has to wait for all my bids to fill. Since i have bids at multiple price points, and they were there 1st, the only items currently available on the market for instant purchase are my 2 billion listings. |
The highest bid goes to whomever prices their item the lowest.
Bidding at lots of price points is a waste of market slots (with a couple of exceptions for for book keeping reasons).
ALL of the higher bids will fill before any lower bid will fill. Always.
if there are multiple bids for the same price, it's semi random which bid will be filled first--the players cannot control it.
The following statement is incorrect: "Whoever lists anything, my bid will always be accepted and I will always be the one that buys the item."
If someone else is willing to pay the same price as you, it will be randomly determined which bid will be filled--the players cannot control which of those bids will be filled.
The order that the bids are placed does not affect the order in which the bids are filled. Only the amount of the bid can change the order in which bids are filled--highest bid fill first.
If you had a better understanding of the market mechanics, perhaps your conclusions would be different.
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It is not impossible at the moment. be happy
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
After 42 months of play it should not be impossible to have one really tricked out character.
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Originally Posted by Seldom
Blue, you want something that takes either ridiculous luck in PvP, an action few people engage in, or over a month's worth of tip missions, shorter if you invest large amounts of merits and influence.
We know these are the ways to get PvP IO's. People, especially powergamers like yourself, love the softcapped stuff, and a single enhancement that boosts all defense even by a small amount is highly valuable to them. So you have a very rare IO, that has high value to people who have built characters toward doing crazy things that also yield rewards for doing them. These people probably have all the easy to get good stuff, but their character remains, and they want the best build they can get, just like you. They have gotten the stuff they want, keep earning, but have little means or outlet to spend as they've finished getting all but the most difficult loot in the game. Influence has one use, and that is to get stuff. When there's one thing left that they need, players will use up all they have to get that one thing. (CoV/H character don't need to plan for retirement, after all.) As that thing is valuable and rare, it takes quite a bit for a player to give up their valuable thing. If I got a one in a million drop that I won't get again, or work around a month or more for a drop, why would I give up that thing? If you offered me something I could get even more from. That's the super-expensive prices. The players giving up as much as they can for something they value for the highest possible price. If YOU got something people would buy for 2 billion, why would you sell for less? What you see is people not selling for less. *Side note: the +def PvP io sells for 3+ bill off-market, when people feel the thing is worth more than what the market can offer. |
technical note, I have never soft capped a toon. (again, mine are almost all SOs. i built for recharge, hence the slings and arrows (some deserved I am sure) about my crappy build. It also explains the 5 purp sets (really hard to cram onto a brute btw), and finally, it explains why I am trying to get the two sets of PvP heals onto the beast.
Granted as well, i have an incomplete understanding of market mechanics. Keep in mind, i do not sit and market all day long, nor obsess about it. I do care about a fair and level playing field however. We all know people are farming that market. That is not even a point in contention (I believe) We all know it makes it harder for the average/newer gamer. It is my new hobby to try to assist this class of gamer. Thank you for continuing my education in all things market related.
You never did explain how to corner the market in PvP IOs
still waiting
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The same way grocery stores make it harder for people who want to buy groceries.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
We all know it makes it harder for the average/newer gamer.
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If you have an incomplete understanding of something, how can you claim it to be 'unfair'?
Please read the copious market-related forum posts that explain its workings if you want to learn more; if not, please STOP posting misinformed screeds claiming 'facts' that are not true. "Open your mind, open your eyes, open your ears, and close your mouth," as one teacher repeatedly said to me.
If you believe it is impossible for you to have fun in this game without immediately having the best, most expensive IO in each IO slot, (regardlss of your protestations, this is exactly what you seem to want) then I guess your definition of fun is unique among all the other players in the game, seems unreasonable to nearly everyone, and I would suggest makes no earthly sense whatever.
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
B_C, would you walk into a real-life auction house, and complain that Bill Gates outbid you on a rare, uber-expensive diamond, because you're more of a casual bidder? Would you say it's unfair for a man that worked from the ground up to create a billion dollar industry to keep you from buying said diamond, and the only way to make life fair is that the price cap be applied to all diamonds?
I bet you would.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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I can't believe I missed this.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
a 100 billion war chest would easily accomplish this.
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Hey folks, we don't need 3 different threads on this same subject so I'll be locking 2 of them. It doesn't really make much sense to have the same subject 3 times. If you wish to continue this discussion, I think I'll pick this one as the winner.
Also please be kind when talking to one another, I hate handing out warnings. Plus there is like paperwork involved man.
Thanks,
-Mod08-
-Mod8-
If you are using Latin in your post you are probably trolling
Have a question? Try the PlayNC Knowledge Base
As has been stated before, you do not know how this market works and your conclusions based on this faulty understanding are also flawed.