A special message for language pedants (AKA Grammar Nazis).


Agonus

 

Posted

Guilty!, re: Bloomin' - I guess it puts its more indicative of how its said (or used to be said) in a historical or cultural sense. By shortening it you are gramatically alluding to the way it is (or was) pronounced back in the day.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Durakken View Post
I'm an excellent writer and know most of the rules of languages, definitions of words, and how to make most of what I say accurate grammatically, but why do so? More often than not someone is going to misunderstand you, not know the definition of a word, or think the the structure of a sentence is wrong because it's outside the normal structure that most of the English speaking world uses even though it is not the only structure acceptable. We learn that at very young age, forced to take classes to understand our own language and the rules that it has I find it quite funny that a person who says, "English, correctly you do not speak," is thought to have spoken wrongly when it is proper and those grammar people will try to correct this, but not once have I ever seen one correct someone for not apostrophizing shortened and concatenated words incorrectly, such as the word "blooming" shortened to "bloomin'." Perhaps we as a people view that shortening a word one letter by adding another symbol is kinda silly.
I use those sorts of tricks all the time, in order to more fully express my point. For the same reason I often use words like "dagnabbit," to give it a folksy feel. There are any number of stylistic tricks we can employ to better communicate our intent. One can go from painstakingly erudite to jus' folks with the substitution of a single apostrophe for a letter.

The tremendous flexibility of the English language is one of its greatest strengths. That's why the guy who decided back at the end of the 19th century that English should -- for some utterly inexplicable reason -- follow the rules of Latin did so much damage to schoolchildren for more than a century. (There's that "over / more than" thing I was talking about earlier. Get out of my head, Sister Mary Alice!) One of the reasons why people hate learning English so much is because of the whole "learn the rule on Monday, learn the exceptions to the rule the rest of the week" thing that resulted from his unreasonably influential textbook. Notions such as, "Don't split the infinitive" are stupid because English is not a Latinate language. Different language, different rules. (The most famous split infinitive of all time is, of course, "To boldly go where no man has gone before." According to "proper" English, it should always be, "To go boldly." Poppycock.)

The flexibility of English has also been theorized to have been instrumental in winning WWII against the Japanese. Because Japanese is a more proscriptive language, and apparently was even more so back then, it put their thinking in a straitjacket. Excellent for following orders but terrible at improvisation. So in the fluidity of battle, English-speakers whose brains are wired differently from Japanese-speakers due to the cognitive changes languages enforces upon the brain, had the ability to switch tactics mid-stream much more readily.

As far as using words others don't understand, that's not my problem. My vocabulary is gigantic and I rarely make use of it. When I do, I expect the reader to make an effort to look up something they don't understand.


The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA View Post
iPlayer is UK only (you gits)
Aww Carni !...

As a transcript it goes;
...............................


"My names Dan I'm 23, I'm into crazy writing and PCs".

"I just have this thing, I can't just walk on by and... (*sharp intake of breath) - it burns into my skull !".
(*nervous laughter).

(Dan is seen walking down the street with a marker in his hand. Stopping in front of a heavily graffittied shuttered-blind garage door, he stands in an open stance eagerly twirling his marker)
"I can't stop correcting spelling or grammatical errors".

(Dan pulls off the marker pen lid and twirls the pen at head height in the style of a gunslinger)
"Graffitti !, (leaning on and reading the wall thoughtfully he reads and says );
'emily loves seannas sex' - "Umm,... which is fine, but someone else has added, well, I don't know what he's put but.."

(contemplates graffitti thoughtfully and with a look of satisfaction starts to correct the graffitti)
"I think we need an apostrophe here !."


(Camera cuts to him in-front of a monitor and then squatting outside a cafe' correcting their chalkboard menu)
"Books, magazines, adverts !" he recounts...

(Camera cuts to him holding a flyer and pointing out the typo)
"General knowlage... quiz... you know?"
(exasperated laughter)

Camera cuts to him correcting what looks like a printed tv guide with a marker, you see him explaining;
"Its like a blemish on the face of an angel.. or something !",

(Camera cuts to him walking down the street marker in-hand)
"I can spot a typo from fifty feet !, If typos were terrorists - I'd be Jack Bauer !"

(Walking past a wall of fly-posted gig posters out comes the marker again)
"There is always going to be something spelt wrong !"
(He sets about correcting the multitude of errors)

"I've always got some kind of red pen on me !"
(Camera cuts to his finished crossing out of the apostrophe on the graffitti 'Trolley's Rule')

"I can't... ignore them !"
(he shakes his head laughing nervously).

"I remember when i was a little kid, in a leisure centre, there was a sign on a wall which said; 'The management cannot except, instead of accept... responsibility for lost or stolen property".

"It just kinda like opened my eyes to a world of human error and i've never been able to close them since !"
(shakes his head in disbelief)

(Camera cuts to him correcting another magazine at his desk before the admittion)
"I could never even consider dating a girl that couldn't spell !"

Camera cuts to him noting errors on the web)
"Capital, capital, capital, HYPHEN ! where there should be a dash !"

"I think my hobby is being right !" (smug grin), "..and i think i like that - thats a good hobby !"
(nervous laughter)

.................................................. ..............

The programme then goes on to state that 24% of us would correct graffitti - but we cannot be bothered to carry the paint.

- Good grief !, and you thought you were bad !, poor guy !.


 

Posted

Just as each publishing company and magazine has its own "house rules" for grammar, style, and spelling, MMO communities set their own, more or less by consensus and in practice. No-one should confuse professionally copyedited, proofread, and published writings with these self-policed online conversations.

Incidentally, once upon a time, I contemplated creating a joke character: the Grammar Cop, a level 1 n00b assigned to the Atlas Park beat to watch out for unproofed character biographies, misspelled super groups, and idiomatic orthography in toon names. There was, however, no way to guarantee everyone would be in on this rather thin joke, so it never got past the concept stage.


 

Posted

I'm not the greatest typer, especially late at night when entire words tend to misplace themselves in sentences. I do try to check myself, but errors will slip through. Minor grammar errors are no big deal to me.

But I think there's a place for different styles of typed conversation.

Among various online groups and friends, I have no problems with casual typing. For example, using asplodey slang or typing how I tend to talk, y'know? L33tspeak style silliness is okay here in small doses, like that new thing coming out that I WANT NAO!

But, for the love of the gods, don't type cutesy in a business email or official document or the like. It makes you look bad.

Though if u always typ liek dis, and if you can't be bothered to take a few extra seconds out of your apparently extremely busy life to sound like an intelligent human, don't expect ME to treat you like one. Really, did your English teacher touch you in a bad place that you have such a vendetta against the language?


Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.

good luck D.B.B.

 

Posted

It annoys me that people still don't understand that there is the word Newb and then there is the word N00b... One means a new person to whatever while the other is person that acts like they are new and never learns despite all efforts of other people to help them.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Durakken View Post
It annoys me that people still don't understand that there is the word Newb and then there is the word N00b...
It's like the distinction between a schlimazel and a schmuck. At any rate, Grammar Cop correcting people's in-game writing while wandering around Atlas Park (instead of levelling) struck me very much as n00bish behavior, whereas a newbie might innocently ask a players why their names are spelled with 3's instead of e's.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
I knew a secretary who would drop little Tootsie rolls in business letters. Just for a little fun. You know.
There's a difference between what you're talking about, and what I'm talking about. I'm referring to things like sending a "u," "ur" and "kthx" filled business email to another company.


Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.

good luck D.B.B.

 

Posted

Truth be told I am a bit of a spelling nazi. I successfully keep my neurosis in check most of the time. I can tolerate the odd typo or minor misspelling of a multisyllabic word. Text shorthand is fine places where it's appropriate, such as Twitter, IM's and of course text messages. I can even deal with leet speak in small doses.
That being said however, my biggest pet peeve is when people spell the word 'than' with an 'e'. Seriously, it's four bloody letters! I even made a slightly tongue-in-cheek video rant about the subject on youtube.
These forums, and indeed in-game, are far from immune. Don't even get me started on the abomination that is 'dieing'.
My neuroses aside, the language is evolving at a blistering rate. Trying to keep up can be arduous.



----- Union's finest underachiever -----
Farewell CITY of HEROES
The First, the Last, the One.

Union: @ominousvoice2059

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
Oh yeah -- it's "different FROM" not "different THAN."
I'd say that that depends on context. For instance, A and B are both different from C, but A might be more different than B is.


Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by OminousVoice View Post
These forums, and indeed in-game, are far from immune. Don't even get me started on the abomination that is 'dieing'.
I made a post a month or so back on "dieing."

To wit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
You know what's REALLY dying? Spelling abilities.

Dying means actively heading toward death.

Dieing means actively cutting out forms and shapes with a die. (As in "tool-and-die" or "die-cast metal.")

Dyeing means actively coloring something, as an item of clothing or one's hair.



I know, I know, another "grammar nazi" post. But I'm in a lot of pain and therefore cranky and you came up short on the latest spin of Wheel... Of... Annoyance!


The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
I'd say that that depends on context. For instance, A and B are both different from C, but A might be more different than B is.
No, it's plain wrong. Just because it's fallen into common usage (damn you, Sondheim and your Into the Woods!) don't make it right no how, no suh. Being "more different than" is trailer trash speak, sorry.

It's like when people say "taunt" when they mean "taut." Now dictionaries are saying that "taunt" is a variation on "taut." Come on! (Which people often spell as "common" also incredibly, annoyingly incorrect, because it's frequently pronounced "c'mon".) I'm all for the language growing and changing because it *is* an evolving, living language, but some things ought to just be wrong and people should be corrected when they misspeak.


The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction

 

Posted

I'm sorry it's a gosh darn forum, and I don't need feel like everything I am submitting needs be freaking graded. The world has enough red tape; I don't need it in my off time when I'm trying relax. I sometimes have alot to say and don't quite get to the end of my thought till I need rush off to work or some other obligation. Perhaps I'm arguing with several posters at once and trying get a word in edgewise while thought I'm projecting is still relevant. Mistakes happen but trying invalidate me will not invalidate my point. If that bothers you, please by all means put me on ignore.

I've dealt with tons of people had english as a second or third language over the years on the web. So I naturally fill in gaps where people make errors.(which if you go to Gamefaqs/comic forums, Superbot400 makes some really difficult posts to understand at times due to him being from another country. I usually agree with his posts as he's a smart guy. He's getting better though.) That's why I wouldn't ever made the shallow judgment someone is or isn't intelligent solely based on presentation. The intent is far more important than the manner it is expressed.

I'm chaotic by nature as I let whatever thoughts come to mind fly when I in a rant, and presentation comes secondary. I try clean it up a bit in afterwards. Anyone that willing give me a hard time over that simply has made the process of knowing who I should ignore that much easier in return. If they're that hung up on that side of things, chance are they weren't too worried about having a real discussion anyways.


Edit: Where hell were all you language nazis when Woot! found it's way into english language? You failed us all.



- Justice
Lastjustice- lvl 50 defender
Leader of Eternal Vigilance.
- Freedom
Lastjudgment - lvl 50 corruptor
Member of V.A.M.P.


Beware:NERDS ARE THE WORST FANS!!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
No, it's plain wrong. Just because it's fallen into common usage (damn you, Sondheim and your Into the Woods!) don't make it right no how, no suh. Being "more different than" is trailer trash speak, sorry.
It isn't "trailer trash speak", it's merely leaving "from C" implied to avoid a somewhat more awkward sentence. "A and B are both different from C, but A might be more different (from C) than B is." It's quite common that purely logical construction is sacrificed upon the altar of aesthetics in English. (Songs and poems being the worst offenders in that regard. In related news: Into The Woods was awesome!)

Quote:
It's like when people say "taunt" when they mean "taut."
I must confess that I've never heard that usage. I am now contemplating ways to spread it further into the language just so I can have fun with the word "tauntology."


Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lastjustice View Post
Edit: Where hell were all you language nazis when Woot! found it's way into english language? You failed us all.
We decided it was no worse than any other interjection and called it a day.


Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
We decided it was no worse than any other interjection and called it a day.
You Grammar Nazis will regret the day, I swear!



- Justice
Lastjustice- lvl 50 defender
Leader of Eternal Vigilance.
- Freedom
Lastjudgment - lvl 50 corruptor
Member of V.A.M.P.


Beware:NERDS ARE THE WORST FANS!!

 

Posted

I don't mind improper grammar. After all not everybody is highly educated or typing in their native language or completely without learning defect.

On the other hand I despise text speak. Text speak in a situation where one is not pressed for time is much like using ***** speak in everyday life.

Do you say "I'm heading to the store to get groceries. Do you want me to pick up anything for you?" or in order to save a few seconds of time do you say "Me go store. You want?"?


Don't count your weasels before they pop dink!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lastjustice View Post
I prefer to roux the day. It seems more difficult at first, but once you get the hang of it, it's all gravy.


Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
I prefer to roux the day. It seems more difficult at first, but once you get the hang of it, it's all gravy.
Good gravy! If you roux the whole day, you're going to need a whole lot of butter and flour!


 

Posted

I like to slake my thirst on this stuff.

But for me, what really irritates me is using an incorrect word.

For Example, on the message boards here, the biggest infraction I see is the use of the word "roll" when they really mean "role". I know some people will use it as a type of slang since you "roll" dice while playing Role Playing games, so I usually let it slide.


But then again, That's just me.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
I must confess that I've never heard that usage. I am now contemplating ways to spread it further into the language just so I can have fun with the word "tauntology."
The genius of the english language is in that...
1 man who says tauntology means tautology
1 man who says tauntology means the study of taunts
and the last man can see how the word can be used in the game of semantics.



I try never to use txt speak unless I've run out of space in a space and to extend to another post would make it only 1 or 2 words long so various things get removed or replaced.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lastjustice View Post
I'm sorry it's a gosh darn forum, and I don't need feel like everything I am submitting needs be freaking graded. The world has enough red tape; I don't need it in my off time when I'm trying relax. I sometimes have alot to say and don't quite get to the end of my thought till I need rush off to work or some other obligation. Perhaps I'm arguing with several posters at once and trying get a word in edgewise while thought I'm projecting is still relevant. Mistakes happen but trying invalidate me will not invalidate my point. If that bothers you, please by all means put me on ignore.
Speaking for myself, there's no grading going on. It's not like I correct people all the time. That would be a full time job!

I mean, you use "alot" all the time and I've never once said anything about it. Yes, it bugs me, because it's either "a lot" or "allot." Also, the English-as-a-second language thing is another reason I don't normally go around correcting people. You never know. Of course, if someone is being particularly annoying, a nice little spelling rip is always delightfully cathartic.


The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzhi View Post
(Songs and poems being the worst offenders in that regard. In related news: Into The Woods was awesome!)
I don't think we should excuse songwriters from making errors any more than we should excuse anyone else. Actually, we should hold them to a higher standard, because those songs can potentially be around forever.

Paula Cole's song "I Don't Want to Wait" is one of the all-time worst offenders, when she sings, "Say a little prayer for I." Seriously. People mix up the use of "me" and "I" all the time, but you have to *really* be simple to do it like that. Rule of thumb to tell when to use "me" or "I" is to leave out the other person. If it sounds stupid without them in the sentence, then you're using the wrong word. "She and I live in our own little world," correct (Alabama). "Then the cop pulled over Bob and I," incorrect.

One of my favorite songs is "Small Town" by John Mellencamp, but I never fail to laugh when he sings, "I can not forget from where it is I come from."

Paul McCartney's James Bond tune, "Live and Let Die" is equally hilarious: "In this ever-changing world in which we live in." Seriously, Paul, take two minutes to rewrite.

Hoyt Axton (the dad from Gremlins) was also a songwriter who wrote some great songs. I appreciate his use of the subjunctive in "Joy to the World." "If I were the king of the world...." Awesome. When later there's a line that goes, "Joy to the fishes in the deep blue sea," you know he's doing it just for fun, not out of ignorance. Compare that to the Mamas and Papas tune, "California Dreamin'" where they sing, "I'd be safe and warm / If I was in L.A." Ugh.


The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction