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If you have Hasten slotted with 3 level 50 Recharge IOs, you can get to Perma Dull Pain with only 55% global recharge bonuses. That is assuming you click on both Hasten and Dull Pain the instant they are recharged, there isn't really much overlap at all. |
Originally Posted by Smokin_Hotty
How do you achieve perma dullpain??
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I've proven it on my Claws/Regen scrapper, so I know that's the number. (It's actually more like 53.5% global recharge, but 55% is a nice round number to shoot for)
Without Hasten you're going to end up compromising your build in other areas to do it, but I believe it IS possible.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
With WP soft capped, Alphas don't mean anything.
Both sets are fantastic, and with enough IOs will only go down under very specific circumstances that are different to one another.
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THis is correct I am not at the defense soft cap all the time. I am @ 34% Smashing Lethal with just ONE foe in range. However since I always have enough foes around me to boost my defense. that combined with decent regen and the ability to both boost my max hit points AND heal myself goes a very very long way. Also being at the resistance cap for Smashing/Lethal means that anything that does slip through really doesnt hurt me that much. I also have decent defense ( about 30-34% ) to other damage types as well including about 20% to Psi.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Outside of Hasten? Probably not going to happen unless you use a LOT of Purple sets and the LOTG +Recharges.
This, however, would detract from a defense-cap build. While yes, you'd wind up more or less permanently with a larger HP pool to subtract from, you'd be taking more damage over time. Quite a bit more. And more than your increased regeneration rate could offset. |
I can tank pretty much anything on Excalibur my Inv/Nrg tank. And there is always unstoppable in the back pocket just in case.
I have a WP tank who is survives very well and I dont even have a lot of defense built into him but that is changing shortly.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Bingo... 62.5% in global recharge bonuses and Hasten on Auto Click.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If you have Hasten slotted with 3 level 50 Recharge IOs, you can get to Perma Dull Pain with only 55% global recharge bonuses. That is assuming you click on both Hasten and Dull Pain the instant they are recharged, there isn't really much overlap at all.
I've proven it on my Claws/Regen scrapper, so I know that's the number. (It's actually more like 53.5% global recharge, but 55% is a nice round number to shoot for) Without Hasten you're going to end up compromising your build in other areas to do it, but I believe it IS possible. |
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Thank you. You're right; I probably should have placed more emphasis Dull Pain, but I guess I thought DP's role was implicit in the discussion about HP/regeneration. Unstoppable is more a matter of preference, but to me, the ability to have 90% RES to every single damage type (including Toxic, for which there is no typed DEF) except for psi for three minutes at a time is too good to pass up.|
Originally Posted by Starflier
Great write-up Obitus, but you forgot about Dull Pain. And I can't in any way consider Unstoppable a must-have. Dull Pain is Inv's panic button, Unstoppable is the throwaway in the set.
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You can IO yourself to the point where you almost never need to use Unstoppable, but it's hard to make a compelling argument that there are 24 better options to take. Unstoppable's at least as useful as Resist Elements, which I find important (though I know a lot of people skip it, at least pre-I19) for the incidental bonuses. Like most build considerations, it's a question of where you draw the line: By themselves, neither Unstoppable nor Resist Elements offer you absolutely essential benefits, but those benefits are important parts of what makes Invuln Invuln. If you skip the slow and toxic resistance in RElements or the situational immortality of Unstoppable, then you almost might as well roll Willpower instead.
It's as if you could somehow opt to skip the Fear protection and the +perception in WP without sacrificing elsewhere: You'd end up with a viable character, but you'd be missing out on some of the essential bits of flavor in the set.
YMMV.
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Originally Posted by Smokin_Hotty
How do you achieve perma dullpain??
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Or, to put it another way: Making Dull Pain permanent is kind of an arbitrary goal. Get the heal up as often as you reasonably can, and the HP buff will take care of itself. A recharge of 120 seconds is better than a recharge of 140, but a recharge of 100 seconds is better still.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Outside of Hasten? Probably not going to happen unless you use a LOT of Purple sets and the LOTG +Recharges.
This, however, would detract from a defense-cap build. While yes, you'd wind up more or less permanently with a larger HP pool to subtract from, you'd be taking more damage over time. Quite a bit more. And more than your increased regeneration rate could offset. |
If you do take Hasten, then making DP perma (or near enough) isn't all that difficult -- certainly not so difficult that you'd be forced to sacrifice undue amounts of DEF, or that you'd be forced to use purple sets. If you're dead set on soft-capping all types (S/L/E/N/F/C), then yeah, maybe -- but soft-capping Fire/Cold is not at all required nor even necessarily desirable. Those attack types just aren't common enough to warrant handicapping your build full-time just so you don't have to eat the occasional Luck inspiration.
Soft-capping the rest? Sure. Frankly I don't even bother with capping E/N anymore. 32-33% DEF (with one foe in Invincie range) seems sufficient, given that a single luck will put me at the soft cap for a full minute. Full-time, soft-capped S/L DEF ensures that the most common DEF debuffs don't hit me, so I'm pretty well buffered against cascade failure.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Honestly, I'm defense capped. So I don't even take Unstoppable. It's an "oh crap" power that mostly gets used when it's already too late to benefit from it. It's utility is fairly limited and if you're already getting mauled by something that's bypassing capped defense and resist, it does jack squat for you.|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
I can tank pretty much anything on Excalibur my Inv/Nrg tank. And there is always unstoppable in the back pocket just in case.
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In my previous primary build, I had unstoppable and used it exactly ONCE in a year's time. Admittedly, it saved my bacon at the time. But I have better things I could be doing with a power choice than something I might use once a year.
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Ive got Unstoppable. Its got once recharge slot in it... hardly ever use it.. but its come in handy when I needed it.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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You're doing it wrong. Nobody should eat popcorn because they like to eat popcorn.|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
Butter and lighty salted.
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They should eat popcorn because they like butter and salt in copious, heart stopping amounts.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
My alternative to unstoppable: column of oranges (including a couple of T3s). If you're heading into an extreme situation, 2-3 column of T3 oranges closely approximate a crashless Unstoppable. Note - I am a terrible insp hoarder (terrible as in I hoard them a LOT), especially for oranges, so this may not work for most people.
Having said that, with free Fitness, I may get Unstoppable, put a resist in it and call it a day.
I built 26% Def to Psi for my Inv/ Tank. A Fortitude, Force Field Generator, Dispersion Bubble or even a Maneuvers or 2 do wonders to make Psi just another attack that doesn't hit you. Even without those buffs, 26 > 0.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
Without knowing all of the technical aspects involved here, I can say that I love them both. My personality leads me to roll a tank 9 times out of 10.
I took an Invul/EM tank to 50 and loved him. By 50 I slotted him completely with IOs and he was next to unbeatable in game....when it came to PvP, however...not so great even with all my IOs slotted the way many people were saying was the best for PvP. No matter how I slotted him he was always good for PvE.
I also have a WP/SS that is up to level 41 now. Freaking amazing! I can run a mission 2 to 3 levels above me for a 3 to 4 man team and chuckle all the way through. Seriously, the more he has around him the better. In a team he doesn't agro anything like my Invul. But my Invul can't last like the WP in my opinion.
I don't have the WP slotted with any IOs yet and he's not to 50 so I can't say what he'll be like when he gets there. I haven't used my Invul in about 2 years so I may dust him off after I19 and see what I can do with him.
Actually, my biggest frustration with the Invul/EM was PvP. Period.
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Mister Liberty - WP/SS tank
Liberty Machine - Inv/EM tank
Brickhouse Brown - Stone/Stone tank
Infurnace - Fire/Fire scrapper
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I have the same things.. an INV/SS and a WP/SS nother at level 50. |
Originally Posted by Mister Liberty
Without knowing all of the technical aspects involved here, I can say that I love them both. My personality leads me to roll a tank 9 times out of 10.
I took an Invul/EM tank to 50 and loved him. By 50 I slotted him completely with IOs and he was next to unbeatable in game....when it came to PvP, however...not so great even with all my IOs slotted the way many people were saying was the best for PvP. No matter how I slotted him he was always good for PvE. I also have a WP/SS that is up to level 41 now. Freaking amazing! I can run a mission 2 to 3 levels above me for a 3 to 4 man team and chuckle all the way through. Seriously, the more he has around him the better. In a team he doesn't agro anything like my Invul. But my Invul can't last like the WP in my opinion. I don't have the WP slotted with any IOs yet and he's not to 50 so I can't say what he'll be like when he gets there. I haven't used my Invul in about 2 years so I may dust him off after I19 and see what I can do with him. Actually, my biggest frustration with the Invul/EM was PvP. Period. |
They are both very good. I give the INV an edge because of the way Excalibur is built but Apex my WP/SS is getting some looks at Touch of Death sets for Melee defense or Kinetc Combat for Smashing/Lethal defense.... I think I am going TOD though.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
I know I'm late here, but here's a comparison:
Invulnerability is the Terminator. It's rock solid and can only be taken down by gigantic amounts of damage or a very specific damage type.
Willpower is the T-1000. While up front it may not look sturdy enough, you can beat the crap out of it and it'll reform back to normality before you have a chance to damage it. Even if you flatten it and break it to pieces it will still get up and take a swing at you.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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So ... You're saying that Willpower renders Invulnerability obsolete? |
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I know I'm late here, but here's a comparison:
Invulnerability is the Terminator. It's rock solid and can only be taken down by gigantic amounts of damage or a very specific damage type. Willpower is the T-1000. While up front it may not look sturdy enough, you can beat the crap out of it and it'll reform back to normality before you have a chance to damage it. Even if you flatten it and break it to pieces it will still get up and take a swing at you. |
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Oh for the love of... No! XD
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Originally Posted by Obitus
So ... You're saying that Willpower renders Invulnerability obsolete?
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Not with a mag 3 - 1.2 second duration taunt aura it doesn't |
Originally Posted by Obitus
So ... You're saying that Willpower renders Invulnerability obsolete?
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I have both , I prefer Invuln. Its easier and cheaper to soft cap all Def, plus the 90% resist is nice. I also really like the -debuff resist it has to most things especially -defense.
Invincinbilty mag 4 - 16.8 second duration
Willpower and Invul are pretty similar in power level at the high end of the spectrum due to IOs and pool powers.
The sets on their own with no SOs or only SOs will both handle s/l from orange/red mobs almost indefinitely. Invulnerability will fair better against defense debuffs due to higher defense and more resistances. Willpower will handle non smashing/lethal damage better than invulnerability in most cases due to having better resistances and high regeneration.
The taunt auras aren't really a problem because you have taunt and attacking to help out.
The tier 9 in both sets is generally skippable, but with issue 19 coming and freeing up spots they may be useful to pick up since you aren't cutting better powers for them.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
Well since your paring with SS I would say WP. This is because SS with rage crash can get end heavy and WP has an endurance edge with good old quick recovery.
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So ... You're saying you've never seen Terminator 2? |
Originally Posted by Brakner
Not with a mag 3 - 1.2 second duration taunt aura it doesn't
I have both , I prefer Invuln. Its easier and cheaper to soft cap all Def, plus the 90% resist is nice. I also really like the -debuff resist it has to most things especially -defense. Invincinbilty mag 4 - 16.8 second duration |
(I was joking.)
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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as someone with both i'll tell you the simple fact of it...
invun on paper is stronger then wp.
in practice WP seems to be 10X more durable.
The reason? lvl.40+ content is stacked with Psy damage... arachnos... shadow-shard critters... ritki... carnies... You'll learn to hate Inv in the epic levels, in the end the only way i could cope was io'ing for max psy def/res and losing a little recharge and general def (not that it mattered much) to keep the invun tanker going.
Throw in spending a fortune for io'ing a wp tanker properly and you'll never look back as even against damage types that mess it up, usually nothing can do enough damage, fast enough to even threaten a wp tanker. when you're recovering 200-250 or so hps/sec with softcapped s/l you'll realize that the only hole in WP is the crappy taunt.
i have a invul/ss and a wp/em...i dont think theres a bad pick.both are safe,easy tanks to make.
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While I'll disagree with the on paper INVis stronger then WP. On paper, they're about the same imo.|
Originally Posted by Sprite Fire
as someone with both i'll tell you the simple fact of it...
invun on paper is stronger then wp. in practice WP seems to be 10X more durable. The reason? lvl.40+ content is stacked with Psy damage... arachnos... shadow-shard critters... ritki... carnies... You'll learn to hate Inv in the epic levels, in the end the only way i could cope was io'ing for max psy def/res and losing a little recharge and general def (not that it mattered much) to keep the invun tanker going. Throw in spending a fortune for io'ing a wp tanker properly and you'll never look back as even against damage types that mess it up, usually nothing can do enough damage, fast enough to even threaten a wp tanker. when you're recovering 200-250 or so hps/sec with softcapped s/l you'll realize that the only hole in WP is the crappy taunt. |
It's in actual play, I think you'll find WP the winner in survival.
It took me awhile with my WP tanker to get the build, but with IOs factored in (Tough/Weave as well)...I find WP just better.
WP can take alphas. They get enough resists, and easy to get lots of HP, to make alphas no problem.
WP has such varied defenses, I find it works better against things like Rularuu and other such enemies.
Now, yes, that INV tanker will handle Cims better, but the equally insanely built WP Tanker is laughing at them too.
INV however, does have the advantage of a better aggro aura. And I hear people say "oh no one can pull aggro off a tanker who attacks", let me tell you, that's wrong.
My Ice/Ice/Arctic tanker (with CE, Icicles and Taunt) had Romi's aggro taken by a Fire/Shield Scrapper. So, think about that when you think about aggro holding. WP does have the weaker taunt aura.
All that said. You can't go wrong with either choice. Both are great sets. WP imo wins out mostly due to it being the better Tanker (in my experience) for fighting Rularuu because of the varied defenses (RTTC + Cap/Near Cap HP > Dull Pain ...imo).
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The BrandX Collection
I have both.. and I can guarantee you that Inv can survive anything that WP can.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Originally Posted by BrandX
INV however, does have the advantage of a better aggro aura. And I hear people say "oh no one can pull aggro off a tanker who attacks", let me tell you, that's wrong.
My Ice/Ice/Arctic tanker (with CE, Icicles and Taunt) had Romi's aggro taken by a Fire/Shield Scrapper. So, think about that when you think about aggro holding. WP does have the weaker taunt aura. |
This.
On my Invuln, I have Invincibility 4-slotted with Mocking Beratement (and a couple of cyto's). The taunt aura on him is massive, at the ED cap.
I have still seen an elec/shield scrap pull bosses off me. (Nothing else survived TO be pulled off....)
So, yes, the taunt aura is a definite factor.
Which will benefit more from the i19 Alpha slot?
No. I got my slice of Humble Pie a while back on a +4 LGTF. The Glacia/Infernia mission just wrecked me. I'm good, just not "Handle two +4x8 spawns with bosses" good. Even defense capped, eventually, you die simply from the lucky hit principle.
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