Fire melee attack chain


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Posted

I'm currntly running the chain incinerate-scorch-cremate-scorch but looking to respec to top of the line can anyone help me, what is the best DPS attack chain for fire melee and how much recharge is necessary for each of the attacks?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
I'm currntly running the chain incinerate-scorch-cremate-scorch but looking to respec to top of the line can anyone help me, what is the best DPS attack chain for fire melee and how much recharge is necessary for each of the attacks?
Incinerate (+137% recharge, 4.22 seconds) -> Cremate (+84%, 4.35) -> Greater Fire Sword (+237%, 3.56)

It's about 11% higher DPS than your current chain, at least unslotted. Slotting may narrow the difference a bit, as your current chain can take slightly better advantage of procs, particularly the purple proc. Plus getting all that recharge may involve compromises, and one such compromise might be lower +damage. Still, in the neighborhood of 10%.

Oh, it'll also burn endurance faster, probably at about the speed of another toggle. Be ready.


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"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Posted

Sweet thanks Werner for those numbers.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
It's about 11% higher DPS than your current chain, at least unslotted. Slotting may narrow the difference a bit, as your current chain can take slightly better advantage of procs, particularly the purple proc. Plus getting all that recharge may involve compromises,
This. I only had room in my FM/SR for three attacks, and initially used the top chain, then switched to the Incin>Scorch>Cremate>Scorch chain with a purple proc and a ToD damage proc in Scorch. The difference between the two was very low, but I missed the burst damage of GFS in that build, so I went back to the top chain.

Werner, if you have the time and gumption, what would be the required recharge and approximate DPS for Incin>Scorch>GFS>Scorch, assuming purple proc + ToD damage proc in Scorch? Alternately, if the needed recharge is ridiculous, maybe Incin>Cremate>GFS>Cremate with purple proc + ToD damage proc in Cremate?


 

Posted

As always, I recomend the Cremate -> Fire Sword -> Incinerate attack chain. In that order, for benefits that may not seem obvious at first.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverado View Post
As always, I recomend the Cremate -> Fire Sword -> Incinerate attack chain. In that order, for benefits that may not seem obvious at first.
what are the benefits?


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Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.

 

Posted

Better management of interruptions such as BU, Hasten, Conserve Power, click mez protection, etc.

When you use these powers that interrupt your DPS, you want to replace them for the lowest DPA attack (FS), and you also want to keep your highest DPA attack (Inc) in a permanent state of recharge, not wasting a fraction of a second of its recharge time.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverado View Post
Better management of interruptions such as BU, Hasten, Conserve Power, click mez protection, etc.

When you use these powers that interrupt your DPS, you want to replace them for the lowest DPA attack (FS), and you also want to keep your highest DPA attack (Inc) in a permanent state of recharge, not wasting a fraction of a second of its recharge time.
I don't get it. How is replacing fire sword any different than swapping out scorch in the other chain?


"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade View Post
I don't get it. How is replacing fire sword any different than swapping out scorch in the other chain?
I'm not sure myself, but presumably it's due to Fire Sword having higher damage, I guess? I suppose if you have a high recharge, Fire Sword recharge probably doesn't matter... but cast time is 1.33s compared to Scorch's 1s... hrm.

I only took Scorch because I didn't like the look of the fire scimitar (in fact, I put off taking Fire Melee until like Issue 15 when I finally ran out of Scrapper melee powersets to take, haha), so with future alternate animations, I might take Fire Sword...


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ideon View Post
I'm not sure myself, but presumably it's due to Fire Sword having higher damage, I guess? I suppose if you have a high recharge, Fire Sword recharge probably doesn't matter... but cast time is 1.33s compared to Scorch's 1s... hrm.

I only took Scorch because I didn't like the look of the fire scimitar (in fact, I put off taking Fire Melee until like Issue 15 when I finally ran out of Scrapper melee powersets to take, haha), so with future alternate animations, I might take Fire Sword...
But if firesword had higher damage, that would make it worse due to the lost damage for the swap.


"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverado View Post
Better management of interruptions such as BU, Hasten, Conserve Power, click mez protection, etc.

When you use these powers that interrupt your DPS, you want to replace them for the lowest DPA attack (FS), and you also want to keep your highest DPA attack (Inc) in a permanent state of recharge, not wasting a fraction of a second of its recharge time.

How has is the dps on that chain and what is the recharge required ?


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hejtmane View Post
How has is the dps on that chain and what is the recharge required ?
It's the second best possible DPS chain with Fire Melee, only marginally below the top chain, with significantly lower recharge requirements. I'm not sure on the specifics, but I can run it seamlessly with 89% recharge slotted on Incinerate (and every other attack for that matter), 62.5% global recharge and Hasten up.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverado View Post
It's the second best possible DPS chain with Fire Melee, only marginally below the top chain, with significantly lower recharge requirements. I'm not sure on the specifics, but I can run it seamlessly with 89% recharge slotted on Incinerate (and every other attack for that matter), 62.5% global recharge and Hasten up.
Ok I iwll have to try an figure out the recharge I may use a respec and change things around and test. I have a non hasten build and running 67.5% global recharge


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Posted

I believe it's this:

Incinerate (3.30, +204%) -> Cremate (3.43, +134%) -> Fire Sword (3.56, +69%)
Incinerate (4.22, +137%) -> Cremate (4.35, +84%) -> Greater Fire Sword (3.56, +237%)

Though I haven't poked my head into the recharge thread recently where Arcanaville was reviewing recharge requirements, and seeing something a little different than our standard calculations. I'd shoot for better than the above to be safe.

You can do slightly more DPS with Greater Fire Sword -> Incinerate -> Fire Sword, but that's a silly chain since it takes MORE recharge than the top chain to do less damage. I also have Incinerate -> Cremate -> Fire Sword -> Greater Fire Sword doing about the same DPS at much lower recharge (+134% in GFS), but that takes four attacks, so is inefficient in a different sense.

I'm not convinced I have the right damage info for Fire. Some things aren't quite making sense to me. I need to review it, but I'm not feeling up for it tonight.


"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
I believe it's this:

Incinerate (3.30, +204%) -> Cremate (3.43, +134%) -> Fire Sword (3.56, +69%)
Incinerate (4.22, +137%) -> Cremate (4.35, +84%) -> Greater Fire Sword (3.56, +237%)

Though I haven't poked my head into the recharge thread recently where Arcanaville was reviewing recharge requirements, and seeing something a little different than our standard calculations. I'd shoot for better than the above to be safe.

You can do slightly more DPS with Greater Fire Sword -> Incinerate -> Fire Sword, but that's a silly chain since it takes MORE recharge than the top chain to do less damage. I also have Incinerate -> Cremate -> Fire Sword -> Greater Fire Sword doing about the same DPS at much lower recharge (+134% in GFS), but that takes four attacks, so is inefficient in a different sense.

I'm not convinced I have the right damage info for Fire. Some things aren't quite making sense to me. I need to review it, but I'm not feeling up for it tonight.
Thanks I am running the 4 attack chain now I will have to look at my i19 build and see what i can do


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Posted

Just popping back in. Can anyone explain why it is better to replace fire sword in its chain than scorch in its chain?


"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.

 

Posted

I run GFS>INCIN>FS how's that in comparison?


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Posted

Just jumping back in, Still haven't gotten an answer on why the Chain silverado recommends is better than incinerate-scorch-cremate-scorch.

How does it matter what you swap out for build up?

also, why swap out? I just kind-of insert rather than swap. is that a really bad thing? Do you restart the chain or estimate timing (I think I did two attacks worth so now I'm on cremate)?


"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.

 

Posted

Well, it's better DPS if you have an extra +59% recharge to throw at your build, but don't want to throw an extra +92% recharge at it for the top DPS chain. Call it the halfway between chain, I guess.

As for swapping out vs. inserting, and what you swap out, Fire Sword does enough lower DPS than the other two attacks that swapping is likely the better choice in that chain. The same is probably true of Scorch, which has even lower DPS. Haven't run any math to prove it in either case, though. Not sure what you mean by estimating timing. You see it's now recharged, so the next time you would have hit Fire Sword, hit Build Up instead. Or a heal. Or whatever you need to hit.


"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
As for swapping out vs. inserting, and what you swap out, Fire Sword does enough lower DPS than the other two attacks that swapping is likely the better choice in that chain. The same is probably true of Scorch, which has even lower DPS. Haven't run any math to prove it in either case, though.
Well, what I mean is Silverado said that he recommends Cremate -> Fire Sword -> Incinerate because it gives better management of the interrupts, not because of the damage specifically. So I asked how that matters. If I do:

Cremate -> Buildup -> Incinerate ; Cremate -> Firesword -> Incinerate

how is that better or worse than:
Cremate -> Firesword -> Buildup -> Incinerate ; Cremate -> Firesword -> Incinerate

Also, how is it better than either

Incinerate -> buildup -> Cremate ->Scorch
or
Incinerate -> scorch -> buildup -> Cremate -> Scorch

And as if I wasn't confused enough, is there a particular reason why the two swap out the first power? Wouldn't you always lead with incinerate?

Quote:
Not sure what you mean by estimating timing. You see it's now recharged, so the next time you would have hit Fire Sword, hit Build Up instead. Or a heal. Or whatever you need to hit.
Well, for instance, the hero alignment power has a loooooonnnngg animation time. Two attacks worth easy. Sometimes I chain heal-buildup. or heal-consume. or even buildup-fireyembrace. whatever. At that point all three attacks are recharged. Do you 1) just guess which step you would be on if you hadn't interrupted for the buffs? 2) Start over? 3) Keep going as if you hadn't used the buff?

Examples:
I-S-C-S chain. You toss in buildup (B) and Heal (H)

i-s-c-s-i-h-b...

#1 would be i-s-c-s-i-h-b-s-i-s-c (probably, that's just a guess though)
#2 would be i-s-c-s-i-h-b-i-s-c-s
#3 would be i-s-c-s-i-h-b-s-c-s-i

I'm not sure it really matters, and I know I don't run on the difficulty where it could matter, but I am curious.


"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.

 

Posted

I'm not sure how it gives better management of the interrupts. Build Up is slightly slower than Scorch, so that's a nice swap. Build Up is slightly faster than Fire Sword, which would be a tiny DPS hit if you don't have enough recharge for the swap, possibly leading to wanting to insert Build Up instead of swap out.

But if you have sufficient recharge, and maybe even if you don't, you swap out the lowest DPS attack, Fire Sword. If you just insert the Build Up, then you're spending more time at lower DPS than you need to. Won't make much difference, but it'll make some difference.

If you're inserting a much longer click, again, just replace your low DPS power. You're not trying to estimate when your other attacks will become available; you're just taking out the low DPS power. If it's a long click, the good attacks WILL be recharged when it's through.

You might go with an order other than best attack to worst attack if some other order made better use of Build Up. I don't know if any of these chains are in that category.

And while it wasn't a specific question, one advantage of Incinerate -> Cremate -> Fire Sword over Incinerate -> Cremate -> Greater Fire Sword is that it saves a power pick. That's probably less valuable in I19, but still valuable. No advantage over Incinerate -> Scorch -> Cremate -> Scorch in that regard, though.


"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Posted

Thank you!

Any idea why the difference in placement of incinerate in the two chains? Just preference?


"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
I believe it's this:

Incinerate (3.30, +204%) -> Cremate (3.43, +134%) -> Fire Sword (3.56, +69%)
Incinerate (4.22, +137%) -> Cremate (4.35, +84%) -> Greater Fire Sword (3.56, +237%)

Though I haven't poked my head into the recharge thread recently where Arcanaville was reviewing recharge requirements, and seeing something a little different than our standard calculations. I'd shoot for better than the above to be safe.

You can do slightly more DPS with Greater Fire Sword -> Incinerate -> Fire Sword, but that's a silly chain since it takes MORE recharge than the top chain to do less damage. I also have Incinerate -> Cremate -> Fire Sword -> Greater Fire Sword doing about the same DPS at much lower recharge (+134% in GFS), but that takes four attacks, so is inefficient in a different sense.

I'm not convinced I have the right damage info for Fire. Some things aren't quite making sense to me. I need to review it, but I'm not feeling up for it tonight.
Revisiting this post.

Question: for a Brute, would it be better to work Gloom into a chain?

For instance, if the following chain is close to top DPS:

Incin - Crem - FS - GFS

Would a Brute be better off with: Incin - Gloom - Crem - GFS

Thx.