Defense - Please help me understand the mechanics!


Aett_Thorn

 

Posted

How does Ranged/Melee/AOE defense work in conjunction with defense to types of damage like smashing & lethal?

For example

Lets say I have a 25% Defense to Ranged, AOE, and Melee attacks...

I also have a 10% defense to Smashing/lethal
And I have 15% defense to fire/cold

Would I have a 35% defense to a smashing melee attack?

Would I have a 40% defense to a ranged fire attack?

Or does it just go by whichever is the highest defense?

If it goes by the higher defense is there any point in increasing your defense to damage types if your ranged/melee/AOE is always higher?

Thank you so much if you can help.


 

Posted

It just goes by the higher defense. I'll let some melee expert answer the is-it-worth-it-to-slot-blah-blah part.


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Posted

See also: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Defense

"Defense Tags and Stacking

Defense bonuses carry tags as well, to specify what styles of attack they work against. Each Defense bonus applies only versus attacks whose tags match one or more of its own. There is one additional type of Defense bonus called Base Defense, or DEF(Defense), which applies against all attacks regardless of tagging.

Every time an attack is made against a target, the game checks the target's total Defense bonus against each of the attack's tags separately. Once the game has those separate totals, it uses only the best one in its calculations that determine whether the attack hits. The important result of this rule is that, for any given attack, Defense buffs only stack when they all have one of that attack's tags in common.

Example: Deflection Shield gives a Defense bonus against Melee Attacks, Smashing Attacks, and Lethal Attacks. Glacial Armor gives a Defense bonus against Energy Attacks and Negative Energy Attacks. A Tanker with both these buffs is ambushed by a nasty Council Vampyri who tries to hit her with Siphon Life. That power is tagged as a Negative Energy Attack and a Melee Attack. Our Tanker will only be protected by one of her two Defense buffs. Lucky for her, it will be whichever is larger."

But if you read the whole article, you will find that there are some, probably only minor, benefits to having positional and target Def types separately; if it were a matter of spending millions to get those bonuses, I personally wouldn't.


 

Posted

Ty So much gentlemen!


 

Posted

It always goes by the highest number for that attack, and keep in mind that attacks often have more than one damage type. For instance, an attack may be Smash/Fire/Melee, in which case the highest defense of those three will be used.

If you have some defense in your primary or secondary, it's usually positional OR typed, so it's better to build for more of what you have already--typed for typed, positional for positional. Pool powers that have defense (Weave, CJ, Hover, Maneuvers) have both typed and positional defense, so are useful for either.

So if you have positional defense already, don't bother adding typed defense, you'll be covered for the vast majority of attacks. The only exception is that there are some Psi attacks that are only typed Psi, and don't have a positional component. The only defense that will work against those attacks is Psi typed, though they are rare enough that it's probably not worth going to great lengths to defend against them.


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Posted

Defence powers modify the chance of avoiding the attack by the amount of the modifier.

As an example:

A controller uses brawl at level 1 with no enhancements against a blaster standing still with again no enhancements, that should be an even 50/50 chance of a hit or miss (excluding the beginners luck modifier, we're talking examples here)

if that blaster had an extra 50% defence however, then it would be 25/75 (or a 75% chance to miss) as the 50/100 chance the blaster had, was increased by a further 50% (50+(50/2)) to give 75/100

Hope that makes sense!!!



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Posted

I appreciate the info guys,

Thanks again.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TsumijuZero View Post
Defence powers modify the chance of avoiding the attack by the amount of the modifier.

As an example:

A controller uses brawl at level 1 with no enhancements against a blaster standing still with again no enhancements, that should be an even 50/50 chance of a hit or miss (excluding the beginners luck modifier, we're talking examples here)

if that blaster had an extra 50% defence however, then it would be 25/75 (or a 75% chance to miss) as the 50/100 chance the blaster had, was increased by a further 50% (50+(50/2)) to give 75/100

Hope that makes sense!!!
That's...not at all correct. Listen to the other posters. They got it right.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TsumijuZero View Post
Defence powers modify the chance of avoiding the attack by the amount of the modifier.

As an example:

A controller uses brawl at level 1 with no enhancements against a blaster standing still with again no enhancements, that should be an even 50/50 chance of a hit or miss (excluding the beginners luck modifier, we're talking examples here)

if that blaster had an extra 50% defence however, then it would be 25/75 (or a 75% chance to miss) as the 50/100 chance the blaster had, was increased by a further 50% (50+(50/2)) to give 75/100

Hope that makes sense!!!
Base to hit of players is 75%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [URL="http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics"
Paragon Wiki[/URL]]
HitChance = Clamp( AccMods × Clamp( BaseHitChance + ToHitMods – DefMods ) )
  • BaseHitChance is what the attack's chance of hitting would be if there were no modifiers at all – no Enhancements, no buffs, no level differences, nothing
  • ToHitMods is the sum of all ToHit buffs and debuffs (the debuffs will be negative)
  • DefMods is the sum of all relevant Defense buffs and debuffs (ditto)
  • AccMods is the product of all Accuracy multipliers, and
  • Clamp(x) limits x to the range of 5% to 95%

ToHitMods and DefMods are 0 by default. AccMods defaults to 1.



Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Pine_ View Post
Base to hit of players is 75%.
Well, the one thing TsumijuZero did get right was that, for the example provide (controller vs. blaster, in other words, PvP), the base chance would be 50%. But that's about it.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TsumijuZero View Post
Defence powers modify the chance of avoiding the attack by the amount of the modifier.

As an example:

A controller uses brawl at level 1 with no enhancements against a blaster standing still with again no enhancements, that should be an even 50/50 chance of a hit or miss (excluding the beginners luck modifier, we're talking examples here)

if that blaster had an extra 50% defence however, then it would be 25/75 (or a 75% chance to miss) as the 50/100 chance the blaster had, was increased by a further 50% (50+(50/2)) to give 75/100

Hope that makes sense!!!
This is.. not how it works, exactly. Especially considering 45% is the defense softcap (the point at which, in most situations, more is almost pointless), which can reduce enemy chance to hit you down to 5%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Mantiss View Post
If it goes by the higher defense is there any point in increasing your defense to damage types if your ranged/melee/AOE is always higher?
In most situations, no. Building for both damage type and vector is not ideal. A Super Reflexes character, for example, will rarely benefit from typed defences once it gets all three toggles, because it has Melee/range/aoe so well covered.

However, in some cases, say, you're building your Blaster (or defender, corrupter, controller, etc) for softcapped (45%) range defense using set IOs. In this case, the various damage type defenses that came with your range bonuses can help mitigate some damage when something tries to hit you with melee or AoE. If you couldn't get those two very high in addition to range, I'd try for smashing/lethal - they're rather common damage types.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finduilas View Post

The only exception is that there are some Psi attacks that are only typed Psi, and don't have a positional component. The only defense that will work against those attacks is Psi typed, though they are rare enough that it's probably not worth going to great lengths to defend against them.
There are more exceptions than that, but people usually forget about them.

Fearsome Stare is typed Negative Energy only, there is no positional component for it. Some of the Gravity Control powers are typed Smashing only, with no positional component.

There is also no such thing as Toxic defense. If you are attacked by a pure Toxic damage attack (which are thankfully rare), you will have no defense to it unless you have some positional defense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TsumijuZero View Post
if that blaster had an extra 50% defence however, then it would be 25/75 (or a 75% chance to miss) as the 50/100 chance the blaster had, was increased by a further 50% (50+(50/2)) to give 75/100

This is completely wrong. Defense is additive not multiplicative.

You subtract defense, not multiply it. If you have 50% defense, then you subtract that from the chance to hit. 50% chance to hit - 50% defense = 0%.

However, there is always a 5% to hit, no matter what, and there is always a 5% chance to miss too. So that 0% gets converted to 5%. Likewise, a 100% chance to hit (or more) gets converted to 95% chance to hit, which is the most you can have.

That's why 45% defense is considered "the soft cap." 50% to hit - 45% = 5%, so more than that doesn't do as much good.

Note that this soft cap doesn't factor in level differences, debufs, to hit buffs, etc. So while fighting even con NPCs with no bufs or debufs, the soft cap works, but in other situations, it's helpful to have a bit more at least.

45% defense is considered a good number however because most of your fighting is against enemies with a 50% chance to hit.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by gameboy1234 View Post
Note that this soft cap doesn't factor in level differences, debufs, to hit buffs, etc. So while fighting even con NPCs with no bufs or debufs, the soft cap works, but in other situations, it's helpful to have a bit more at least.
Actually, with regards to level, the soft cap is still the soft cap as long as the enemy is no more than 5 levels above you. At that point the enemies start gaining a ToHit bonus. When they're only 1 to 5 levels above you, they get an Acc bonus, which will raise their minimum chance to hit you.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarGeek View Post
Actually, with regards to level, the soft cap is still the soft cap as long as the enemy is no more than 5 levels above you. At that point the enemies start gaining a ToHit bonus. When they're only 1 to 5 levels above you, they get an Acc bonus, which will raise their minimum chance to hit you.
Note - Accuracy comes in after tohit/defense, so even if you floor something's chance to hit you, it might (in the end) be greater than 5% (accuarcy*(to-hit-defense)). Most attacks have accuracy as 1.0 - no change, but outside buffs can affect that. Several/many AoEs might have less - .9 (although, again, the combat system will then increase the chance to at least 5%), many weapon sets have 1.05 (archery 1.1).


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