Cottage rule.
Oh, wait. Yeah, this is the direction that people need to go in for this kind of stuff. However, the more 'optional' powers you have in a set, the harder that it becomes to balance with other sets, and sometimes by itself.
For instance, if each set were to get 10 powers, with 2 of them being 'optional' in each set, would they need to be of the same tier? Would you only have this extra power as, say, a tier 7 or 8? Or could it be a tier 9 on some, and tier 5 on another?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Good idea. Actually, the idea is ok regardless of the cottage rule phenomenon. |
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
I propose that powersets could have several optional powers for each tier. If a new power is invented that would fit into one of the existing powersets, it could be allowed as an option. Example: old Moment of Glory could be offered as an option alongside the new Moment of Glory. Someone is bound to have preferred the old version.
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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
Since the damn "cottage rule" pops up every time someone comes up with an idea for changing one powerset or another
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I feel that cottage rule is just a convenient excuse when people don't like a suggestion. It is not necessary that the real reason behind the objection is the cottage rule. Most of the time, I think there is a point when people say no to suggestions, but maybe the cottage rule is used too often.
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You may feel that way, but you'd be incorrect. |
Originally Posted by Twilight_Snow
Good idea. Actually, the idea is ok regardless of the cottage rule phenomenon.
I think cottage rule is just a rough guideline for players, and not meant to be a rigid rule. If a change is really necessary and can't made done without significant change, then cottage rule does not apply. Most people do not justify their suggestions that their proposals are necessary and can't be done otherwise (to be fair, such justification is difficult in general). This makes it convenient for other people to jranger easily. I feel that cottage rule is just a convenient excuse when people don't like a suggestion. It is not necessary that the real reason behind the objection is the cottage rule. Most of the time, I think there is a point when people say no to suggestions, but maybe the cottage rule is used too often. |
You want reasoning behind invoking a cottage rule? Two examples:
1. Someone's proposing a change to electric armor in another thread, *today,* which gets rid of the armor completely (moving what it does to another power) and putting in a self rez.
Think about all that would affect with *every* Electric armor user out there.
2. The devs tried "Eh, just replace the power" once, when they were revamping PPPs. They did just flat out replace powers people were taking. The response from the players when they replaced "useless" powers?
... and that's putting it lightly. Think they'll *ever* do that again? Before answering, notice that the PPPs (and now APPs) have *five* powers instead of four.
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The devs have changed the order of powers before (Taunt) and other things, that usually gets a "cottage rule" response from the player base.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
You may feel that way, but you'd be incorrect.
You want reasoning behind invoking a cottage rule? Two examples: 1. Someone's proposing a change to electric armor in another thread, *today,* which gets rid of the armor completely (moving what it does to another power) and putting in a self rez. Think about all that would affect with *every* Electric armor user out there. 2. The devs tried "Eh, just replace the power" once, when they were revamping PPPs. They did just flat out replace powers people were taking. The response from the players when they replaced "useless" powers? ... and that's putting it lightly. Think they'll *ever* do that again? Before answering, notice that the PPPs (and now APPs) have *five* powers instead of four. |
And if you check that Electric Armor thread, I mentioned how to keep it from breaking the cottage rule, it really wasn't that hard.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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The ORDER of powers has nothing to do with it. The powers themselves still perform the same basic task. The order of powers is not touched on by the cottage rule. The purpose of the power is. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
The devs have changed the order of powers before (Taunt) and other things, that usually gets a "cottage rule" response from the player base.
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If I move Taunt to the second power slot in a set for whatever reason, Taunt still Taunts. The power it swaps places with still does whatever it does. No violation occurs.
If I make Taunt into a placate, that does violate it (for what I'd hope would be glaringly obvious reasons.)
The cottage rule states that the basic purpose of a power will not change. It does not restrict adding to it. It does not affect the order within the set. If you're going to argue it, at least know what it is.
Alternate Power choices:
I've been thinking of this exact same workaround for some time as well. That alternate power choices could be offered that would add variety and utility to a power set.
What got me thinking about it was /Devices. Devices power set is vastly out-classed by Traps and balance should be addressed. But, how can Devices be improved(short of getting rid of it...grrr)? Devices could be anything really, why should it be hampered with unpopular(mostly) and unused(mostly) powers because an entire two or three players(morons) swear by the power and would be devastated(mostly deservedly) if their favoritetest(pathetically) power were to be removed for something that is actually useful and that most others would use, so the 'cottage rule' gets trotted out and nothing helpful gets done.
I have many /Devices toons, but they all come out nearly the same, skipping the same useless powers(which, I know, many would say is the entire secondary, I can't help liking the the set, sorry). The two that stick out for me in the set are Taser and Smokebomb. What if at the same level as Taser was offered a Flash Bang Grenade power as an Alternative Power Choice, with a 50ft range, 8ft. radius, 5 targets max, mag2, 10 second Stun? And/OR at the same level Smokebomb is offered, a Concusion Grenade with a 50ft. range, 15ft radius, 16 targets max, mag3, 15 second Stun(or mag2 again but with a 30second -to hit as well), could be alternately chosen.
I also have considered Alternate Power choices for Masterminds. Most people skip MM personal attacks because they are so weaksauce, and rightly so. But, what if alternate power choices were made available for those.
Consider Ninjas(stop laughing, please). What if the Archery personal attacks(which desperately need improvement) had Shuriken alternate power choices? Slicing Shuriken(with a -def -speed), Poison Shuriken(with a -rech/regen and toxic damage), and Star Shower(with a short cone -def -speed) were offered alternatively. Or Katana(Ninja-to) attacks instead? Or, even a personal choice combo of the above? Think about the level of customization that could come from that. It would be glorious!
I have seen many worries forumites suggest about how much effort that(or ANYTHING new) would require, with balancing, animation, and artwork, but it should not be too hard to accomplish if done one power and one set at a time. This should be done(right after they improve[make even marginally useful] the original power).
Alternate Power choices ftw!
"Character is what you are in the dark"-John Warfin
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Powers have been changed before. Wet Ice, a power I remember that once could be slotted with Defense.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
The ORDER of powers has nothing to do with it. The powers themselves still perform the same basic task. The order of powers is not touched on by the cottage rule. The purpose of the power is.
If I move Taunt to the second power slot in a set for whatever reason, Taunt still Taunts. The power it swaps places with still does whatever it does. No violation occurs. If I make Taunt into a placate, that does violate it (for what I'd hope would be glaringly obvious reasons.) The cottage rule states that the basic purpose of a power will not change. It does not restrict adding to it. It does not affect the order within the set. If you're going to argue it, at least know what it is. |
And while it escapes me right now, I can swear there were examples of powers being changed that went against the cottage rule, before. Admittedly, this was earlier in the game.
And untill recently, I can remember my Burn never fearing anything, and then all of a sudden it started fearing 99% of the enemies, then it stopped fearing them (so that's...add a component, keep it in, then lose the component).
Admittedly, you could never slot for additional fear in Burn, but the fear component was there.
As for my post, when people have suggested changing the order of a power, people have said "cottage rule" before.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Not that I'm against alternate power choices (I'd rather have a clickie heal than RTTC on my WP Scrapper). I think you are wrong on one thing...|
Originally Posted by redtornado
Alternate Power choices:
I've been thinking of this exact same workaround for some time as well. That alternate power choices could be offered that would add variety and utility to a power set. What got me thinking about it was /Devices. Devices power set is vastly out-classed by Traps and balance should be addressed. But, how can Devices be improved(short of getting rid of it...grrr)? Devices could be anything really, why should it be hampered with unpopular(mostly) and unused(mostly) powers because an entire two or three players(morons) swear by the power and would be devastated(mostly deservedly) if their favoritetest(pathetically) power were to be removed for something that is actually useful and that most others would use, so the 'cottage rule' gets trotted out and nothing helpful gets done. I have many /Devices toons, but they all come out nearly the same, skipping the same useless powers(which, I know, many would say is the entire secondary, I can't help liking the the set, sorry). The two that stick out for me in the set are Taser and Smokebomb. What if at the same level as Taser was offered a Flash Bang Grenade power as an Alternative Power Choice, with a 50ft range, 8ft. radius, 5 targets max, mag2, 10 second Stun? And/OR at the same level Smokebomb is offered, a Concusion Grenade with a 50ft. range, 15ft radius, 16 targets max, mag3, 15 second Stun(or mag2 again but with a 30second -to hit as well), could be alternately chosen. I also have considered Alternate Power choices for Masterminds. Most people skip MM personal attacks because they are so weaksauce, and rightly so. But, what if alternate power choices were made available for those. Consider Ninjas(stop laughing, please). What if the Archery personal attacks(which desperately need improvement) had Shuriken alternate power choices? Slicing Shuriken(with a -def -speed), Poison Shuriken(with a -rech/regen and toxic damage), and Star Shower(with a short cone -def -speed) were offered alternatively. Or Katana(Ninja-to) attacks instead? Or, even a personal choice combo of the above? Think about the level of customization that could come from that. It would be glorious! I have seen many worries forumites suggest about how much effort that(or ANYTHING new) would require, with balancing, animation, and artwork, but it should not be too hard to accomplish if done one power and one set at a time. This should be done(right after they improve[make even marginally useful] the original power). Alternate Power choices ftw! |
Traps outclassing Devices. They're two completely different sets, for two different ATs.
Traps can't outclass Devices, as Blasters don't have access to Traps.
What you could say is, Devices is outclassed by every other Blaster Secondary.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Extremely. Like the first major patch of the game. With a vastly different dev team. (Fold Space pulled, Wormhole moved up, new power - Singularity.) Issue 1, if not before. And again, for contrast, look what happened when they tried to do it with PPPs. They learned it was NOT a good idea. ESPECIALLY several years into the game. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Powers have been changed before. Wet Ice, a power I remember that once could be slotted with Defense.
And while it escapes me right now, I can swear there were examples of powers being changed that went against the cottage rule, before. Admittedly, this was earlier in the game. |
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| And untill recently, I can remember my Burn never fearing anything, and then all of a sudden it started fearing 99% of the enemies, then it stopped fearing them (so that's...add a component, keep it in, then lose the component). |
Flipping it around, if the Devs added damage to Illusion's Spectral Terror, the cottage rule would not be in violation. The power would still be doing an AOE Fear. If they *replaced* the fear with damage, it would be.
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As for my post, when people have suggested changing the order of a power, people have said "cottage rule" before.
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Now see, for those who came in after the Burn change, and as many said they used it before the recent change to it, the component of Burn was to fear the enemies (or they in how they used it).|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Extremely. Like the first major patch of the game. With a vastly different dev team. (Fold Space pulled, Wormhole moved up, new power - Singularity.) Issue 1, if not before. And again, for contrast, look what happened when they tried to do it with PPPs. They learned it was NOT a good idea. ESPECIALLY several years into the game.
What is the basic purpose of Burn? Not fear. Damage. Has that changed? No. The add in component has. Therefore, no violation. The *basic purpose* of the power - damage - has not changed. It has nothing to do with what can or can't be slotted, or the order it's in. Flipping it around, if the Devs added damage to Illusion's Spectral Terror, the cottage rule would not be in violation. The power would still be doing an AOE Fear. If they *replaced* the fear with damage, it would be. Those would be people with no clue as to what the cottage rule (do not change the basic purpose of a power) is. |
Basic Principle of Grounded resists! If it was turned into a self-rez (like was mentioned in another thread), and that self-rez granted you some resistance, basic principle is still in play!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
see my signature on Alternate power selections
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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No. The basic purpose of Grounded is to be an auto-power that continually provides the following:|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Now see, for those who came in after the Burn change, and as many said they used it before the recent change to it, the component of Burn was to fear the enemies (or they in how they used it).
Basic Principle of Grounded resists! If it was turned into a self-rez (like was mentioned in another thread), and that self-rez granted you some resistance, basic principle is still in play! |
Energy resist
Negative energy resist
Knockback resist
End drain resist
Immob resist.
The basic purpose of a Rez is to bring yourself back from death. As a click power, those resists would not be in affect unless and until that power was clicked - and they'd be secondary to the power's primary purpose of rezzing yourself. Given that every self-rez in the game makes you untouchable for several seconds, a resist would be somewhat *pointless* there. And removing the untouchable for the sake of having the resists do something worthwhile would make it one of the least liked self-rezzes out there.
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Oops. I thought Devices and Traps were both available for Defenders(I thought wrong, dude). So sorry, my bad. What made me think wrongly(other than lack of brain power) was a discussion about how Trick Arrow is outclassed by Traps, and I became conflumoxtigated. Trick Arrow is another powerset that could use vast ammounts of improvements AND Alternate Power choices.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Not that I'm against alternate power choices (I'd rather have a clickie heal than RTTC on my WP Scrapper). I think you are wrong on one thing...
Traps outclassing Devices. They're two completely different sets, for two different ATs. Traps can't outclass Devices, as Blasters don't have access to Traps. What you could say is, Devices is outclassed by every other Blaster Secondary. |
And, oddly enough so is Illusion. Flash wiffles. Others say what it does is offer a unique hold that other sets don't get. No. What it does is offer a LAME-user-endangering hold that other sets aren't stuck with. Yeah, yeah, "It's my most favoritest power in all the game! How DARE you suggest it wiffles?!?", probably because I never take it. Because it wiffles. What if it were alternately made available as a ranged Flash Bomb/Disco Ball(ddo-like spell called Otto's Irresistable Dance---w t f ddo?!? you nutz?!?---yeah, and yeah)type power instead. Then it could be useful as a ranged(duh) hold, instead of as a "omg im gonna die" power or worse as a 'i'll charge right up to those giant-kill-me-with-one-melee-hit-guys and set this off' type power(they won't be able to kill me before my animation completes 'cause i'm so smart and tough like that).
"Character is what you are in the dark"-John Warfin
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Now, maybe it's just been me, but I'd like to refute that my WP's self rez made it anything but untouchable. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
No. The basic purpose of Grounded is to be an auto-power that continually provides the following:
Energy resist Negative energy resist Knockback resist End drain resist Immob resist. The basic purpose of a Rez is to bring yourself back from death. As a click power, those resists would not be in affect unless and until that power was clicked - and they'd be secondary to the power's primary purpose of rezzing yourself. Given that every self-rez in the game makes you untouchable for several seconds, a resist would be somewhat *pointless* there. And removing the untouchable for the sake of having the resists do something worthwhile would make it one of the least liked self-rezzes out there. |
Rez...faceplant. It did not make one untouchable at all.Okay...self rez can offer all that in the self rez as mag 1 for the KB/Immobile Protection and low resists, and make it a self rez.
I'll have to disagree with it's point being a passive power, however, as Instant Healing would still be a toggle if that was the case.
Now, I'm not saying I want the change or not, just saying lots of changes could be done for that suggestion, and still fit it becoming a self-rez without breaking any cottage rules.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
/em sigh... I really worked hard on my own thread... over 600 views but only generated enough interest for 19 posts, most of which are mine and leo g's...
Anyway though, my own proposal for such alternate power selections would be for weapon sets, such as claws, katana, ninja blade, DB, etc. etc., that would use the same animations, but have secondary damage types, such as fire, cold, negative, etc. etc. and different secondary effects. (Like -def becoming -dam with toxic secondary damage)
So basically, allowing for elemental weapons.
Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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No, you're right - WP and Regen don't, I'm used to Fire and DA which do. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Now, maybe it's just been me, but I'd like to refute that my WP's self rez made it anything but untouchable.
Rez...faceplant. It did not make one untouchable at all. |
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Okay...self rez can offer all that in the self rez as mag 1 for the KB/Immobile Protection and low resists, and make it a self rez.
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| I'll have to disagree with it's point being a passive power, however, as Instant Healing would still be a toggle if that was the case. |
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| Now, I'm not saying I want the change or not, just saying lots of changes could be done for that suggestion, and still fit it becoming a self-rez without breaking any cottage rules. |
Changing the Basic Function of a power is what violates the cottage rule. Not changing it to a click. Not changing secondary effects. Not making it pink instead of green. Not changing its order in the powerset list.
Going from a power which provides multiple resistances to a self rez - a completely different function - breaks the cottage rule. Yes, even if you put resistances in the self rez. You are changing the primary purpose of the power. You're changing an airplane to a ham sandwich. The two are NOT interchangeable.
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I kept everything that grounded does now, in the new power, changed it from a passive to a click (which doesnt break anything, as we've both pointed out), and added a mechanic to it.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
No, you're right - WP and Regen don't, I'm used to Fire and DA which do.
Still violates the cottage rule. Instant Healing went from toggle to click. It still has the same function. No violation. *sigh* OK. Very last time I'm saying this, because if you still don't get it, I give up. Changing the Basic Function of a power is what violates the cottage rule. Not changing it to a click. Not changing secondary effects. Not making it pink instead of green. Not changing its order in the powerset list. Going from a power which provides multiple resistances to a self rez - a completely different function - breaks the cottage rule. Yes, even if you put resistances in the self rez. You are changing the primary purpose of the power. You're changing an airplane to a ham sandwich. The two are NOT interchangeable. |
Energize went from a purely END discount power, to a primarily +Health power, with an END Discount property. Yeah, people like that END discount power, but it's used mainly for the heal. And CP was often skipped before that heal was added, because it wasn't needed by most players who used the set.
As long as the self-rez kept all it's Resists/Mez Protection abilities, you keep it within doing the same thing it did before. The change would be in it's duration, as it goes from a passive always on power to a click when your dead power.
Now, one might not like the change (and again, I never said I wanted the change), but all the types of changes to the power, that would need to be done, has been done to powers before, and thus, keep it from breaking any cottage rule.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Back to Fred's suggestion, this is the kinda thing I'd like to see. It'd offer a nice level of customization, especially for those sets with powers that people tend to disagree over, like Repel or Conserve Power.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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No. No. No.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I kept everything that grounded does now, in the new power, changed it from a passive to a click (which doesnt break anything, as we've both pointed out), and added a mechanic to it.
Energize went from a purely END discount power, to a primarily +Health power, with an END Discount property. Yeah, people like that END discount power, but it's used mainly for the heal. And CP was often skipped before that heal was added, because it wasn't needed by most players who used the set. As long as the self-rez kept all it's Resists/Mez Protection abilities, you keep it within doing the same thing it did before. The change would be in it's duration, as it goes from a passive always on power to a click when your dead power. Now, one might not like the change (and again, I never said I wanted the change), but all the types of changes to the power, that would need to be done, has been done to powers before, and thus, keep it from breaking any cottage rule. |
You're changing the basic function of the power. It goes from Constant Resistance bonus to situational resistance bonus useful only in avoiding incurring -additional- Debt because you've already died once.
This changes the basic function of the power.
Energize: 59.6% end discount plus 374.8 point heal.
Conserve Power: 100% end discount.
They -added- to the power, and lowered it's main ability slightly, but it remains an End Modification power, primarily. (60% end discount compared to a 25% heal)
What you are suggesting is changing a Damage Resistance Power into a Self Rez with a damage resistance component. The Cottage rule is not only broken, it is also set on fire.
Memphis Bill is, as is often the case, right.
-Rachel-
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No, you did not.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I kept everything that grounded does now, in the new power, changed it from a passive to a click (which doesnt break anything, as we've both pointed out), and added a mechanic to it.
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You took an airplane and replaced it with a ham sandwich. You then stuck a toothpick with a little plastic airplane on the top and insisted it's the same thing.
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| Energize went from a purely END discount power, to a primarily +Health power, with an END Discount property. |
New power - Energize. Purpose: END discount and heal.
Same power with an added component.
Original power: Burn.
Purpose: PBAOE damage patch.
First revision: PBAOE damage patch with fear.
New revision: PBAOE damage patch.
Same power with a component added, then removed.
But like I said, you just refuse to get it. So I'm out. I'm not going to keep trying to pound understanding into a stone. I get paid to try to do that at work. I don't here.
[QUOTE=Memphis_Bill;3265694]
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Original Power: Grounded|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I kept everything that grounded does now, in the new power, changed it from a passive to a click (which doesnt break anything, as we've both pointed out), and added a mechanic to it.[/qutoe]
No, you did not. You took an airplane and replaced it with a ham sandwich. You then stuck a toothpick with a little plastic airplane on the top and insisted it's the same thing. Original power - Conserve Power. Purpose: END discount. New power - Energize. Purpose: END discount and heal. Same power with an added component. Original power: Burn. Purpose: PBAOE damage patch. First revision: PBAOE damage patch with fear. New revision: PBAOE damage patch. Same power with a component added, then removed. But like I said, you just refuse to get it. So, let me just sum up by saying "Here's your sign." I'm not going to keep trying to pound understanding into a stone. |
Purpose: +Resist/Mez Protection
First Revision: Self Rez with +Resist/Mez Protection
What I did was (and really I don't care for the suggestion in the other thread...personally I'd rather see the tier 9, become a self rez that turns you into that electric gremlin without a huge end drop at the end, than what was suggested in the other thread)...take all the changes they've done to powers and shown it can be done (not likely to be done).
Now if Grounded was added to Static (as per that original suggestion), I don't think anyone would really care about the change (I wouldn't...it would either free up a power choice or allow me to keep any set bonuses I originally slotted for).
The change could be thought of as bad my many, but then IH went from an always on power, to not always on (even with massive +RCH).
So I say the change can happen, and still not break the cottage rule, as any change I mentioned, still falls in line with all the other changes they've ever done to powers.
Perma to Non Perma (Instant Healing). Primary Function to Secondary Function (and Energize's END Discount became it's secondary function...at least in my opinion, as I never needed the END Discount on my /ELA). Ect...ect...
And Bill, no need to get rude.
And you totally totally misused the quote. Cottage Rule is no where near as obvious to deal with, as the joke that goes along with it.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Didn't you have a thread for this already?
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
[QUOTE=BrandX;3265731]
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Original Power: Grounded Purpose: +Resist/Mez Protection First Revision: Self Rez with +Resist/Mez Protection |
Gee, look, even your own explanation *completely changes the point of the power.*
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And Bill, no need to get rude.
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Well I did make my thread first and had it linked in my signature- Oh, oops, sorry, you didn't mean me.
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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
Didn't you have a thread for this already?
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Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Since the damn "cottage rule" pops up every time someone comes up with an idea for changing one powerset or another, I think it's time we get a workaround so suggestions for powersets can be made without some wiseguy chiming in with "cottage rule!" in the very first response.
I propose that powersets could have several optional powers for each tier. If a new power is invented that would fit into one of the existing powersets, it could be allowed as an option. Example: old Moment of Glory could be offered as an option alongside the new Moment of Glory. Someone is bound to have preferred the old version.
In before "cottage rule!"
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522