The "You have to die to use this power" makes it a lot, LOT different than IH's change from toggle to click. The resistance part of it not only becomes a lot less than what it was, it also becomes only active once you rez for a short time, then you need to die to get it again.
IH, on the other hand, you can use it as soon as it's recharged, making it an 'at your discretion' power. The power's main focus is still to heal you.
You are suggesting turning Grounded, a passive -KB, -Immob, 12.5 % Res (Energy, NE) into a click rez, 1% Res (E, NE) power. And you don't see how that violates the cottage rule?
The Cottage Rule came out post I6. It was after "He Who Shall Not Be Named" left the Dev team. IH was changed in I5, I believe. Fold Space was well before that. Wet Ice going from a Def power to status protection only was before that. And this current Dev team saw what happened when they made those changes. They have learned from them, and created the cottage rule as a result of that. They are not going to change a power that dramatically, especially if the powerset in question doesn't really need the change.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
[QUOTE=BrandX;3265851]
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No, that you're flat out wrong and not getting the point. I don't care if you disagree, if you do it from a factual POV. (Or purely opionion - "I don't like playing this set/using this power" - hey, fine. Then don't. I have no argument with that.) |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
What? that someone disagrees with you, therefore it's bad? |
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| I said imo, Energize's change completely changes the point of the power. |
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| Yeah, it still does it's old effect, but I wouldn't be using it for it's old effect either, as Power Sink keeps me from needing to. *shrug* |
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| My point stands. |
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| And while I don't care for that one suggestion, I personally don't see how it breaks the cottage rule, and you haven't shown me how it does, when it keeps the same effects, only now you need to die and click a power to use them, instead of always on protection (again...look at IH being turned from Toggle to Click and Energize going from Conserve Power to the Heal (its main use now) with an END Discount). |
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| But then, Energize can't lose it's +Heal anymore. |
Oh, wait, that's trying to explain it to you again. Let me go find a brick wall. It'll get that sooner than you will, apparently. Maybe I'll explain it to a few sheets of copper I have out in the garage, too.
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Note: I'm not suggesting anything. I was just saying the original suggestion (brought up in another thread) could have the change, and still follow it.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
The "You have to die to use this power" makes it a lot, LOT different than IH's change from toggle to click. The resistance part of it not only becomes a lot less than what it was, it also becomes only active once you rez for a short time, then you need to die to get it again.
IH, on the other hand, you can use it as soon as it's recharged, making it an 'at your discretion' power. The power's main focus is still to heal you. You are suggesting turning Grounded, a passive -KB, -Immob, 12.5 % Res (Energy, NE) into a click rez, 1% Res (E, NE) power. And you don't see how that violates the cottage rule? The Cottage Rule came out post I6. It was after "He Who Shall Not Be Named" left the Dev team. IH was changed in I5, I believe. Fold Space was well before that. Wet Ice going from a Def power to status protection only was before that. And this current Dev team saw what happened when they made those changes. They have learned from them, and created the cottage rule as a result of that. They are not going to change a power that dramatically, especially if the powerset in question doesn't really need the change. |
Mind you, you could just as easily keep the power at Grounded's current values, and make the switch to the self-rez, I only say lower, because I don't think they'd keep the same values if the self-rez had the big END Drain, that the original suggestion, suggested.
Hell, personally, I think ELA is perfect as is (okay, except for the end crash on the tier 9, but I have that problem with all end crash powers).
I just think that some of these suggestions (whether I care for them or not) could be made without breaking the cottage rule, if done in specific ways (sooo...I came up with how, imo, you could turn Grounded into a Self Rez without breaking the cottage rule).
Do I want the change? No. I just see that a lot of people's reaction to suggested changes are "cottage rule" when I recall reading (and I could be mis remembering) that the first and most important rule of cottage rule being "can the power still accept it the enhancements that it did before".
And not being "I'd have to totally use the power differently".
Basically, I was trying to help the original poster (in another thread) suggest their suggestion without breaking the cottage rule (still think I did personally *shrug*). I'd be against the change either way.
Like I said before, it gives a powerful self-rez as a tier 8, where as all other tier 8 self-rez's are truthfully quite lousy. The one posters suggestion would fall more in line with a tier 9 self-rez, and actually, might be better off in suggesting it as an alternate power choice for the tier 9 (Im all for the alternate power choices, like Widows get with Build Up or Follow Up).
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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And the last time they tried (with a new dev, at the time) was with the PPP changes. They were going to replace some powers outright in the PPPs. The feedback on these "useless" powers they were getting rid of did nothing but reinforce what a *phenomenally bad* idea replacing powers like that are, so we got 5 powers instead of 4 in the PPPs - which later also happened with APPs. That change didn't make it out of early, closed beta.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
The Cottage Rule came out post I6. It was after "He Who Shall Not Be Named" left the Dev team. IH was changed in I5, I believe. Fold Space was well before that. Wet Ice going from a Def power to status protection only was before that. And this current Dev team saw what happened when they made those changes. They have learned from them, and created the cottage rule as a result of that. They are not going to change a power that dramatically, especially if the powerset in question doesn't really need the change. |
Wiki entry on what the cottage rule is:
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The Cottage Rule is a rule of thumb for the developers, used when talking about altering an existing power. The term was coined by Castle on the official forums around the time Defiance was altered (December 11, 2007) and discussed. Castle's original post has been lost to forum purges[1], but the rule, in summary, is this: An existing power will not have its core functionality and purpose changed, though its strength may be altered and effects secondary to the power's true purpose may be added or removed. This rule does not apply to new powers still in beta testing. The rule was so named with the example of "Build Up" -- with this rule, the developers will never change Build Up (which grants the user a temporary surge in damage and tohit) into a power which "builds up" a small cottage. |
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There was another post on the subject, that I recall saying the first rule was keeping the same enhancements. But it may have been purged, I was looking for it for quite awhile, and either my search-fu sucks (could quite be the case) or it's gone, or I don't recall the post correctly.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
And the last time they tried (with a new dev, at the time) was with the PPP changes. They were going to replace some powers outright in the PPPs. The feedback on these "useless" powers they were getting rid of did nothing but reinforce what a *phenomenally bad* idea replacing powers like that are, so we got 5 powers instead of 4 in the PPPs - which later also happened with APPs. That change didn't make it out of early, closed beta.
Wiki entry on what the cottage rule is: |
But I know it was a lot more recent than the one mentioned in your post.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Fine. What's your favorite powersets? We'll just go and f*** up all the power orders, applications and slotting just because. Who gives a s*** if you want to keep it relatively the same because you like it. Screw you. Super Strength? Rage is gone, Footstomp is single target and Knockout Blow no longer holds nor does Knock up. Kinetics? Fulcrum Shift is team only, no self buff and all your other powers no longer buff yourself. Radiation Emission? The toggle debuffs are now ST clicks so they don't auto-bypass defense.|
Originally Posted by redtornado
What got me thinking about it was /Devices. Devices power set is vastly out-classed by Traps and balance should be addressed. But, how can Devices be improved(short of getting rid of it...grrr)? Devices could be anything really, why should it be hampered with unpopular(mostly) and unused(mostly) powers because an entire two or three players(morons) swear by the power and would be devastated(mostly deservedly) if their favoritetest(pathetically) power were to be removed for something that is actually useful and that most others would use, so the 'cottage rule' gets trotted out and nothing helpful gets done.
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Why? Because I said so and that's how I want it. You don't like it? I guess tough nip for you unless there's a rule or something stating there can't be drastic changes to powers that destroys its original purpose...
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Originally Posted by BrandX
And untill recently, I can remember my Burn never fearing anything, and then all of a sudden it started fearing 99% of the enemies, then it stopped fearing them (so that's...add a component, keep it in, then lose the component).
Admittedly, you could never slot for additional fear in Burn, but the fear component was there. As for my post, when people have suggested changing the order of a power, people have said "cottage rule" before.  |
Technically, the devs could go in and redo the effect itself, changing how it functions with the AI which would affect all afraid powers. Or they can simply remove all afraid effects if it caused issues with AI or created an exploit. Think if -perception worked like the NPC version (I think it used to with powers like Smoke), the basically removed that version of -perception and created a new one. It's basically the same thing however that was before the cottage rule was established.
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The link I mentioned is the definition given (and confirmed) by Castle. Unless your newer link is also by castle and not "some random forumite," it's irrelevant. I could say Tar Patch makes everyones costumes into pink tutus and provides a flight speed buff. Doesn't make it so. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
There was another post on the subject, that I recall saying the first rule was keeping the same enhancements.
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When they were planning on replacing powers in the PPPs, I asked Castle directly *about* enhancements. His response? They would stay in, but not do anything if they didn't affect the power. Now, how does that fit with your personal, unverified definition of it beign "as long as it takes the same enhancements?" Looks shot to hell to me.
The cottage rule has *jack-all* to do with Enhancements. Enhancement types have been removed from powers before. The powers themselves still do the same thing.
Now, are you going to keep arguing on this, or accept the damn evidence that you're wrong, admit you may actually have learned something, and move on? At this point my money's on the first, frankly.
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Oh, I could be wrong.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
The link I mentioned is the definition given (and confirmed) by Castle. Unless your newer link is also by castle and not "some random forumite," it's irrelevant. I could say Tar Patch makes everyones costumes into pink tutus and provides a flight speed buff. Doesn't make it so.
When they were planning on replacing powers in the PPPs, I asked Castle directly *about* enhancements. His response? They would stay in, but not do anything if they didn't affect the power. Now, how does that fit with your personal, unverified definition of it beign "as long as it takes the same enhancements?" Looks shot to hell to me. The cottage rule has *jack-all* to do with Enhancements. Enhancement types have been removed from powers before. The powers themselves still do the same thing. Now, are you going to keep arguing on this, or accept the damn evidence that you're wrong, admit you may actually have learned something, and move on? At this point my money's on the first, frankly. |
That said, even the cottage rule can be broken.
And eh, I've had people say my suggestions (which this wasn't one of them) say "never gonna happen", laughed, said it didn't make sense. And then it happened. So, I'm willing to believe anything can happen at any time, whether or not people think it will.
Seeing as how turning that suggestion into self rez, that gives the same benefits, but basically stopping it from being a passive to a clickie when dead, to me, I still don't see it. Getting all the benefits as before, just under a new setup with added benefits.
If this change was made (again, I dont think it will), I'd see it as being just like IH.
The power went from always on, to not always on. I really see no difference, exceptin new rules when to get those protections turned on.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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As I recall it was Castle responding to a question (may have even been in a Q&A) about how one would tell if the cottage was violated. He said that whether or not the IO type changed would be a good indicator that it had been broken but wouldn't guaranty it hadn't.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
There was another post on the subject, that I recall saying the first rule was keeping the same enhancements. But it may have been purged, I was looking for it for quite awhile, and either my search-fu sucks (could quite be the case) or it's gone, or I don't recall the post correctly.
But I know it was a lot more recent than the one mentioned in your post. |
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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
Someone is bound to have preferred the old version.
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God, I hope not.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
My memory of Conserve Power>Energize is thus:
It was changed to a different power specifically because making it a heal while calling it Conserve Power would be breaking the cottage rule.
Getting rid of a power and replacing it with something completely different doesn't break the cottage rule. Naming it the same thing and having it change drastically does.
Hence, you could change Grounded to a self rez without breaking the cottage rule if you no longer called it Grounded. Call it Jumpstart. No cottage rule issue.
EDIT: Not that I would support such a change.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Not to be completely rude but when have the devs balanced powersets around others? Last time I checked Thermal Radiation is still better than Sonic Resonance at mitigation and Fire/Kin controllers are still out damaging blasters in certain situations. |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Cottage rule.
Oh, wait. Yeah, this is the direction that people need to go in for this kind of stuff. However, the more 'optional' powers you have in a set, the harder that it becomes to balance with other sets, and sometimes by itself. For instance, if each set were to get 10 powers, with 2 of them being 'optional' in each set, would they need to be of the same tier? Would you only have this extra power as, say, a tier 7 or 8? Or could it be a tier 9 on some, and tier 5 on another? |
Balancing isn't really the term to be using here. I'd use 'keeping them from overlapping.' Once a powerset has 3-4 alternatives, it becomes difficult to keep powersets from becoming multipurpose tools. Or for a better situation, we don't want Powerset A encroaching on Powerset B's territory. Once that starts happening, it doesn't really matter anymore what you pick, every powerset does the same thing.
Yeah, alternatives here and there certainly wouldn't be bad. But there are only a select few that actually need these options. Such as Phase Powers, questionably useful powers, and expecially the Forcefield and Sonic Resonance powersets, who are the least friendly soloing sets ever...
Edit: Bill, shut up and stop being rude.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
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You are incorrect. But I'm not going to argue with a new wall today.|
Originally Posted by Wavicle
My memory of Conserve Power>Energize is thus:
It was changed to a different power specifically because making it a heal while calling it Conserve Power would be breaking the cottage rule. Getting rid of a power and replacing it with something completely different doesn't break the cottage rule. Naming it the same thing and having it change drastically does. Hence, you could change Grounded to a self rez without breaking the cottage rule if you no longer called it Grounded. Call it Jumpstart. No cottage rule issue. . |
And Vel: No. Not when the person pretty much refuses to listen and "get it" over two threads. And you couldn't PM that why?
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Bill, chill out.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
You are incorrect. But I'm not going to argue with a new wall today.
And Vel: No. Not when the person pretty much refuses to listen and "get it" over two threads. And you couldn't PM that why? |
That was my memory, I'm perfectly happy to have it be an incorrect memory.
I haven't been arguing with you. I agree with you.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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oh god you bumped this thread! Why did you bump this thread?!
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Originally Posted by wavicle
bill, chill out.
That was my memory, i'm perfectly happy to have it be an incorrect memory. I haven't been arguing with you. I agree with you. |
Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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See what you did? You bumped the thread again! Wait, I was set up! NOOOOOO...
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
oh god you bumped this thread! Why did you bump this thread?!
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Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
[QUOTE=Memphis_Bill;3265819]
Gee, look, even your own explanation *completely changes the point of the power.*
Yes, actually, in this case there is. What I'd *REALLY* like to say at this point would get heavily modded. Believe me, with my current opinion - that quote was *not* misused.
My point stands. And while I don't care for that one suggestion, I personally don't see how it breaks the cottage rule, and you haven't shown me how it does, when it keeps the same effects, only now you need to die and click a power to use them, instead of always on protection (again...look at IH being turned from Toggle to Click and Energize going from Conserve Power to the Heal (its main use now) with an END Discount).
Now, if that change was made however, I don't see how it could ever go back or be changed from being a self-rez power. This is true.
But then, Energize can't lose it's +Heal anymore. Though, IH could (theoritically) go back to being a toggle, as that was it's only change.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection