Didn't ElA just get a major improvement when it got proliferated?
Also, there's precedent to a degree: Luminous Aura for Peacebringers. As a literal Unstoppable clone and a self-rez.
Cottage Rule applies.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Yes, it got a self heal - Energize - which was added to (note that it didn't *replace,* but the heal was added on top of) conserve power. Yes, the name was changed. It does, however, remain an END Discount - just with an extra ability now.|
Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix
Didn't ElA just get a major improvement when it got proliferated?
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Similiarly, Energy Aura had a heal added to its END drain.
Doing what the OP wants? Not only is it a violation of the cottage rule, but the result *will* be to PO ElA users as you've now rendered at least one set of enhancements useless (which, if slotted the way you'll generally hear suggested for resist sets, means you're actually dropping their *defense* some, among other things - not to mention the time and INF to get the sets,) forcing a respec, but replacing it with a self-rez which many find useless. (Look at the arguments about Dark and Fire's self-rezzes, especially in the Tanker boards - I don't mind them, I tend to take them, but this *would* seriously irritate others.)
/unsigned many times over.
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The cootage rule can easily be worked around on this one, by giving the self-rez a minor +Resist component (like say +1%), so you can still slot the resist sets.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Yes, it got a self heal - Energize - which was added to (note that it didn't *replace,* but the heal was added on top of) conserve power. Yes, the name was changed. It does, however, remain an END Discount - just with an extra ability now.
Similiarly, Energy Aura had a heal added to its END drain. Doing what the OP wants? Not only is it a violation of the cottage rule, but the result *will* be to PO ElA users as you've now rendered at least one set of enhancements useless (which, if slotted the way you'll generally hear suggested for resist sets, means you're actually dropping their *defense* some, among other things - not to mention the time and INF to get the sets,) forcing a respec, but replacing it with a self-rez which many find useless. (Look at the arguments about Dark and Fire's self-rezzes, especially in the Tanker boards - I don't mind them, I tend to take them, but this *would* seriously irritate others.) /unsigned many times over. |
The problem I see here, isn't the idea of adding a self-rez to the set, but that they'd be adding a self-rez that effects the enemy at tier 8, when the other self-rez's that do that, are tier 9s.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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The Cottage Rule states that the basic purpose of a power will not be changed. Again, see Conserve Power -> Energize, as well as what happened with the PPP "replacements." (Which ended up with the PPPs getting five instead of four power choices.) My discussion of sets is relevant more to player reaction to this sort of change (aside from what seems like a heavy dislike of self-rez powers in melee sets, especially for tanks - see any number of arguments about Rises of the Phoenix, for instance.)
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Originally Posted by BrandX
The cootage rule can easily be worked around on this one, by giving the self-rez a minor +Resist component (like say +1%), so you can still slot the resist sets.
The problem I see here, isn't the idea of adding a self-rez to the set, but that they'd be adding a self-rez that effects the enemy at tier 8, when the other self-rez's that do that, are tier 9s. |
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And as stated, the first basic rule was "make sure it can still be slotted with what people can slot the power with now"|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
The Cottage Rule states that the basic purpose of a power will not be changed. Again, see Conserve Power -> Energize, as well as what happened with the PPP "replacements." (Which ended up with the PPPs getting five instead of four power choices.) My discussion of sets is relevant more to player reaction to this sort of change (aside from what seems like a heavy dislike of self-rez powers in melee sets, especially for tanks - see any number of arguments about Rises of the Phoenix, for instance.)
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Grounded can be slotted with Resistance Enhancements.
And moving the Resists + Mez Protections to Static wouldn't really change anything lose anyone anything, and in fact, would save them power pick, which could be used for a self-rez or a totally different power in general.
But I still see the problem with it being a tier 8 rez that effects the enemy, unlike all the other tier 8 rez's that only effect the player.
So I don't see it as happening anyways.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Out of curiosity did the cottage rule come into effect before or after Fold Space?
Because if they were observing it before they nuked Fold Space then there is a president of a complete power replacement in the main set if not oh well i tried.
The only other thing i could think of wouldn't work since there are no dual purpose powers (Think of Champion Online's Celestial set, when attacking enemies it does damage when targeting NPCs or team members it heals) the thought on that would be splice it into overload so that if its used while alive you get the normal Unstoppable Clone, if used while dead it becomes the draining self rez and stays at tier 9 but again too powerful and it wouldn't happen. this thread is something i more or less through out because it was in my head and i was interested in the responses it might garner.
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See other thread.
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Originally Posted by Xilibrius
Out of curiosity did the cottage rule come into effect before or after Fold Space?
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Maybe i'm missing it, but I don't see any thread links in this one.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
See other thread.
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Fold Space was issue 1 (if that,) when the game was exceptionally new. Whether it was a good idea or not - Controllers did need mroe damage, and the pet provides it - the game itself wasnt' anywhere near finished. We also had a vastly different dev team that, quite honestly, if they were in control today... I hate to think of what would happen.
The Cottage Rule has been around for quite some time.
Again, if you want to know what happens when you try to replace powers *now,* all you have to do is look at the PPP changes - where "useless" powers were initially replaced flat out (the enhancements in them would have stayed, but done nothing unless they affected what that power did.) For instance, my Ice/Psy took Mace mastery. They were going to replace the AOE damage blast with personal force field, which I find utterly useless.
You'll notice they have *five* powers now.
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Actually, that wasn't the first basic rule. That was simply the first guideline. If you're having to remove slotting capability for the power, it's a broach of the cottage rule. This does not mean that if you simply maintain the same slotting capabilities that the cottage rule is maintained.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
And as stated, the first basic rule was "make sure it can still be slotted with what people can slot the power with now"
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The change you're suggesting would still break the cottage rule because you're turning a passive +res power into a click self-rez. The functionality changes completely and therefore breaks the cottage rule.
Because I don't plan on dying, I never take the self-rez powers. I only take powers I will use, or at least accept an enhancement set that I need the bonuses for. I've got several Regen, WP and Fiery Aura characters, and I don't have the self-rez on any of them. It's essentially a wasted power choice, because if you get killed in this game it's usually your own damn fault and 99 times out of 100 you could have avoided it by using inspirations when you get into trouble instead of hoarding them.
If you really want a self-rez, play a character that has one. Rise of the Phoenix seems like it would be a nice one. Maybe I'll respec into a self-rez on one of my characters after I19.
Wait. On second thought, I'll get a power that I'll actually use. Like Recall Friend. Or maybe Aid Self, or Hasten, or Maneuvers, or just about anything that helps my characters avoid dying in the first place.
Electrical Armor originally had no KB protection, along the lines of Fiery Aura. Because of the enormous outcry, the devs broke down and put KB protection on Grounded, with the proviso that it worked only when touching ground. The no-KB thing seems to be part of the deal for getting a damage aura (cf. Dark Armor, Fiery Aura). The devs fudged it for Electrical Armor, and I don't want them revisiting that by putting KB protection on a toggle.
Let sleeping dogs lie.
erm, cottage rule or not, why do you want a self rez? I know some people like them but they honestly aren't worth the trouble. If you suggested something that was clearly needed for ElA then I could support this but I don't see the reason to remove grounded and replace it with a power thats completely situational.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
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Originally Posted by BrandX
The cootage rule
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I'm really trying hard not to come up with jokes.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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*shrug* Still seems like the same functionality to me, only no longer permanent (like the IH from toggle that could be perma to a clickie that couldnt). It'd be changed from passive to when rising from death.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Actually, that wasn't the first basic rule. That was simply the first guideline. If you're having to remove slotting capability for the power, it's a broach of the cottage rule. This does not mean that if you simply maintain the same slotting capabilities that the cottage rule is maintained.
The change you're suggesting would still break the cottage rule because you're turning a passive +res power into a click self-rez. The functionality changes completely and therefore breaks the cottage rule. |
Really, I don't care. And like I said, a self-rez at tier 8, that does the end drain, would put it on par with the tier 9's of Dark Armor and Fire Armor, who have self rez's that are also offensive when used.
But you did clear it up. Okay, so it was a guideline to it. I was looking all over for that post, searching more than I've ever searched before...couldn't find it...it must of been purged.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Now, with this reasoning, I'm a bit confused.|
Originally Posted by Rodion
Because I don't plan on dying, I never take the self-rez powers. I only take powers I will use, or at least accept an enhancement set that I need the bonuses for. I've got several Regen, WP and Fiery Aura characters, and I don't have the self-rez on any of them. It's essentially a wasted power choice, because if you get killed in this game it's usually your own damn fault and 99 times out of 100 you could have avoided it by using inspirations when you get into trouble instead of hoarding them.
If you really want a self-rez, play a character that has one. Rise of the Phoenix seems like it would be a nice one. Maybe I'll respec into a self-rez on one of my characters after I19. Wait. On second thought, I'll get a power that I'll actually use. Like Recall Friend. Or maybe Aid Self, or Hasten, or Maneuvers, or just about anything that helps my characters avoid dying in the first place. Electrical Armor originally had no KB protection, along the lines of Fiery Aura. Because of the enormous outcry, the devs broke down and put KB protection on Grounded, with the proviso that it worked only when touching ground. The no-KB thing seems to be part of the deal for getting a damage aura (cf. Dark Armor, Fiery Aura). The devs fudged it for Electrical Armor, and I don't want them revisiting that by putting KB protection on a toggle. Let sleeping dogs lie. |
His suggestion said to put everything in Grounded into Static field. So really, you'd be gaining a power slot with this suggestion.
As for the outcry, let's remember, not everyone outcried for it. I didn't
I didn't outcry for WP lacking immobilization protection either though.That said, I don't think ELA is any danger of OMG WHAT DID YOU DEVS DO, if the devs looked at it.
I actually love how ELA's KB resist works as well.
Always fun to go with out being KBed, then jump in the air to position yourself somewhere else and BOOM thrown across the room!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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How often do you die that this would be a required change? The following numbers are from Brutes.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
*shrug* Still seems like the same functionality to me, only no longer permanent (like the IH from toggle that could be perma to a clickie that couldnt). It'd be changed from passive to when rising from death.
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Charged Armor
26.25% S/L
26.25% Energy
Conductive Shield
26.25 Fire
26.25 Cold
26.25 Energy
15% Negative Energy
Static Shield
26.25% Psionic
Grounded
9.375% Energy
7.5% Negative Energy.
All totaled that's
26.25% Smashing/Lethal or roughly 39% with 3 SOs
26.25% Fire or roughly 39% with 3 SOs
26.25% Cold or roughly 39% with 3 SOs
61.875% Energy or roughly 93% with 3 SOs
22.5% Negative Energy or roughly 39% with 3 SOs
26.25% Psionic or roughly 39% with 3 SOs
0% Toxic Still 0% with 3 SOs
The only damage type Electric Aura can cap for damage resistance is Energy. With your proposed change it would reach around 79% with 3 SOs in each of the powers which grants energy resistance. So not only would you BREAK THE COTTAGE RULE by completely changing the functionality of a power (It's primary use becomes a self-rez with a secondary benefit of being a resistance power, rather than just being a resistance power) but you also take from Electric Armor the one capped resistance it has, causing them to potentially faceplant that much more often.
-Rachel-
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If you really want a self-rez that's also an AoE EndDrain, you could add a self-rez component to Power Sink, but I would be VERY UNHAPPY if that were implemented, as it would probably kill Power Sink's recharge, and it's such a lovely power as is. |
Originally Posted by Xilibrius
Remove Grounded and add all of its effects to Static Field all of the properties would work the same with it only granting KB protect when on the ground and it'll grant the same minor energy and negative energy resistance that grounded did on top of the Psionic resistance normally associated with the power.
In the place of Grounded add a Tier 8 power thats the draining self rez that the super stunners have. I know this'll never happen since no set gets a Unstoppable clone and a self rez its one or the other but i wanted to throw this out and laugh at how terrible an idea it was. The only idea i'd have to balance this would make it so power surge doesn't grant as high a resistance bonus but that kinda kills the power so theres no real way to make this work and not make the set broken. |
With the exception of Rise of the Pheonix, I'm no fan of self-rezzes on melee sets. Usually, the foe is standing over your corpse, and IF somehow you live through the animation, you are unable to get your toggles up in time. Resulting in another faceplant.
By the time you're high enough level to take a self-rez, there should be room enough in your inspire tray to have an awaken laying around.
Interestingly enough, Will Power has a self rez and that's the set that seems to need it the least. I don't think Elec Armor needs a self rez, it just needs to... ya know... die less.
Personally, I'm in favor of adding a more interesting component to the set. Either adding Conductive Aura to the arsenal...I wouldn't even mind if they watered down the -end or simply just took the +regen effect and added it to Lightning Field.
Or (if the devs want to keep Conductive Aura unique to Elec Control) come up with some sort of targeted toggle that slows the targets regen a bit, while improving your own. You could even have this cool effect of a lightning stream flowing between yourself and the target...
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I do like that idea, adding the +Regen to the lightning field would work wonders towards helping the set survive.|
Originally Posted by Rock_Crag
Personally, I'm in favor of adding a more interesting component to the set. Either adding Conductive Aura to the arsenal...I wouldn't even mind if they watered down the -end or simply just took the +regen effect and added it to Lightning Field.
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And the Self-Rez in Willpower is mainly for Alpha-strikes which rip your meager damage resistance to shreds (I'm looking at you, Cimerora!
)-Rachel-
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Okay, you didn't read the OP post.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
How often do you die that this would be a required change? The following numbers are from Brutes.
Charged Armor 26.25% S/L 26.25% Energy Conductive Shield 26.25 Fire 26.25 Cold 26.25 Energy 15% Negative Energy Static Shield 26.25% Psionic Grounded 9.375% Energy 7.5% Negative Energy. All totaled that's 26.25% Smashing/Lethal or roughly 39% with 3 SOs 26.25% Fire or roughly 39% with 3 SOs 26.25% Cold or roughly 39% with 3 SOs 61.875% Energy or roughly 93% with 3 SOs 22.5% Negative Energy or roughly 39% with 3 SOs 26.25% Psionic or roughly 39% with 3 SOs 0% Toxic Still 0% with 3 SOs The only damage type Electric Aura can cap for damage resistance is Energy. With your proposed change it would reach around 79% with 3 SOs in each of the powers which grants energy resistance. So not only would you BREAK THE COTTAGE RULE by completely changing the functionality of a power (It's primary use becomes a self-rez with a secondary benefit of being a resistance power, rather than just being a resistance power) but you also take from Electric Armor the one capped resistance it has, causing them to potentially faceplant that much more often. -Rachel- |
Stats didn't change at all, because the OP said move all of grounded's powers into Static Shield. So it would still have all the same stats as it's possible to have now.
THEN they wanted a self rez like the Stunner Freaks put in Grounded's place.
All I was doing was trying not to break cottage rule. So, Static would take all of Grounded's abilitiles like the OP suggested and then (as per my suggestion on how to keep the self-rez closer to Grounded) the self-rez would have Grounded's effects to keep all the current slotting the same.
Really, I don't see it being breaking, as the power has all the same effects are in what I suggested, it just went from an always on passive power, to only in effect after you click the power after you faceplant.
Which again, to me, I don't see a different from Instant Healing's changes (always on power to not even possible to perma click power) to this suggestion (always on power to not even possible to keep perma click power).
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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WP takes Alpha Strikes fine, if you build for it. ELA is no different.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
I do like that idea, adding the +Regen to the lightning field would work wonders towards helping the set survive.
And the Self-Rez in Willpower is mainly for Alpha-strikes which rip your meager damage resistance to shreds (I'm looking at you, Cimerora! )-Rachel- |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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But....what about all the characters that would suddenly become broken because they still have a power that doesn't exist anymore?|
Originally Posted by BrandX
His suggestion said to put everything in Grounded into Static field. So really, you'd be gaining a power slot with this suggestion. |
If you take away Grounded, suddenly you have a whole lot of characters with a power that they aren't supposed to have. You can see an example of something similar by looking at Electric Armor itself. I refer to the fact that Scrappers and Tanks get Energize earlier than Brutes and Stalkers do. They could do that because when they made that change, Electric Armor was brand new to scrappers and tanks and there were no characters in existence to be affected by the change. If they had moved Energize up in the set for the pre-existing characters it would likely have broken them in various ways when they suddenly had powers they couldn't possibly have at that level.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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You forgot Brutes. They were affected by the change. All they have to do is go into the Elec armors power, change what it is and what it does... and poof: The changes are made. It's not like Elec Armor Tanks/Scrappers/Brutes are going to be missing Grounded and have to fill the hole. Devs will replace that power with something and then *that* power assumes the same spot and slotting that Grounded had.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
But....what about all the characters that would suddenly become broken because they still have a power that doesn't exist anymore?
If you take away Grounded, suddenly you have a whole lot of characters with a power that they aren't supposed to have. You can see an example of something similar by looking at Electric Armor itself. I refer to the fact that Scrappers and Tanks get Energize earlier than Brutes and Stalkers do. They could do that because when they made that change, Electric Armor was brand new to scrappers and tanks and there were no characters in existence to be affected by the change. If they had moved Energize up in the set for the pre-existing characters it would likely have broken them in various ways when they suddenly had powers they couldn't possibly have at that level. |
I know people will argue against this suggestion and frankly I do too as well but it was an idea that just popped in my head.
Remove Grounded and add all of its effects to Static Field all of the properties would work the same with it only granting KB protect when on the ground and it'll grant the same minor energy and negative energy resistance that grounded did on top of the Psionic resistance normally associated with the power.
In the place of Grounded add a Tier 8 power thats the draining self rez that the super stunners have.
I know this'll never happen since no set gets a Unstoppable clone and a self rez its one or the other but i wanted to throw this out and laugh at how terrible an idea it was.
The only idea i'd have to balance this would make it so power surge doesn't grant as high a resistance bonus but that kinda kills the power so theres no real way to make this work and not make the set broken.