does KICK cause redraw?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-10-08 21:41 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
last i knew kick does not cause redraw. boxing does.
and a makos quad to slot it with.
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This.
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Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
Kick and Boxing both cause redraw.
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All the power pool and epic power pool attacks will cause redraw (with the single exception of the Assault Rifle of Blaster Munition Mastery).|
Originally Posted by RiOTWRAiTH
...Only have it on a ss/invul tank. The animation rules,but...
Now that my Broadsword/Willpower scrapper is ready to take on the fighting pool, Ive got 2 questions for the community, If Y'all happen to know. Thanks in advance. p.s. I'm not the spelliest (sp?) of posters. 1)does kick animation cause redraw of my broadsword? 2)what do u think is the best enhancement to one slot it with?(it accepts knockback and melee damage IO's) Uniques and/ or procs aren't out of the equation. Ok that's about it. Rock on! |
For a single IO, I would go with Kick and the Kinetic Combat proc (knockdown). You could possibly go with Boxing and a Pounding Slugfest proc, but the chance on Boxing and on that proc are much lower than Kick/KC proc. That would give 'em some mitigation ability. There's not much else you can do with only one slot.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
Can someone tech/animation savvy explain to me why they can't replace Kick's animation with Brawl's "ranged weapon=true" animation? I'm quite sure guns and bows in hand always make Brawl execute as a very Kick-looking kick.
The same should be mostly the same with Brawl -- you can Brawl people with the butt of your sword. Seems like it would be possible to make each power remove redraw on some weapons while the other power removes redraw from the remainder.
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As I understand it, Brawl is actually a different power with its own animation for every possible weapon/shield it can be used with. Kick would require the same setup.
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Originally Posted by Another Space
Can someone tech/animation savvy explain to me why they can't replace Kick's animation with Brawl's "ranged weapon=true" animation? I'm quite sure guns and bows in hand always make Brawl execute as a very Kick-looking kick.
The same should be mostly the same with Brawl -- you can Brawl people with the butt of your sword. Seems like it would be possible to make each power remove redraw on some weapons while the other power removes redraw from the remainder. |
Just seems like most of the work would be done for them: take a few token animations from Brawl and plug them in for punch/kick animations. There must be something I'm missing to make it hard for them to uhh "inherit" Brawl's set of alternate animations for weapon=true.
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No, what I'm saying is Brawl doesn't have alternate animations. All of the following powers exist:|
Originally Posted by Another Space
Just seems like most of the work would be done for them: take a few token animations from Brawl and plug them in for punch/kick animations. There must be something I'm missing to make it hard for them to uhh "inherit" Brawl's set of alternate animations for weapon=true.
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Regular Brawl
Mace Brawl
Mace and Shield Brawl
Katana Brawl
Broadsword Brawl
Broadsword and Shield Brawl
Archery Brawl
Spines Brawl
etc, etc.
Each is a separate power with identical stats but different animations.
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BABs addressed this before. He said literally It is not a simply matter of cut and paste. Why? I don't know, I'm not a programmer. He also said that Brawl is one of the most complex powers in the game. That's right Brawl is the most complex due to it alternate animations bases on Weapon/Shield drawn.|
Originally Posted by Another Space
Just seems like most of the work would be done for them: take a few token animations from Brawl and plug them in for punch/kick animations. There must be something I'm missing to make it hard for them to uhh "inherit" Brawl's set of alternate animations for weapon=true.
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If it really was just "cut and paste" you can be sure it would have been done a LONG time ago.
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
I just figure it's a LOT of cut-and-paste. With all the expansion of the company from the time of power customization, I can only hope they're putting the man power into such an endeavor.
I have it on my MA/Fire 6-slotted with Kinetic Crash. And I really wish it didn't cause redraw, because it's an awesome addition to any SWAT styled character.
They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
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*SIGH*|
Originally Posted by Another Space
I just figure it's a LOT of cut-and-paste.
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More than cut and paste.
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Originally Posted by Another Space
With all the expansion of the company from the time of power customization, I can only hope they're putting the man power into such an endeavor.
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Not so much.
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
TY for the constructive info.
I took it, messed with it, but haven't slotted it (or put it on my tray).
It can't hold a candle to my vet reward powers.
plus, I have a friggin' BROADSWORD.
if it causes redraw, its just not economically viable.
And if boxing causes redraw, there is no reason to sink sh*t into that instead, either.
but I did like the mako's Quad and and kin combat suggestions.
TY,
RW
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Watch as I don't appreciate the melodramatic sigh for answering a simple question. I've read that post before; I think I understand the principals but it's about redraw in general, not specifically Brawl. Look at it like this: Brawl already has a billion animations. One for every weapon combination as Lazarillo stated. Make a new power that's a complete copy/paste of Brawl, go through and delete all animations involving a kick instead of a punch. Rename the power from "Copy of Brawl" to "Punch". I understand that I don't know nearly enough about what it looks like behind the scenes. And I understand it's probably a horror scene. But I've yet to see a decisive explanation (or perhaps an explanation dumbed down enough) for why this is the case for brawl copies specifically.|
Originally Posted by Derangedpolygot
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| Not so much. |
At one point, BAB had just about figured out a way to remove redraw completely from the weapon sets, no matter what other power was used.
If I recall correctly, something about shields broke completely when that fix was put in, so it got pulled.
With BAB gone, I have to wonder if anyone else will ever be picking up the ball.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Correct. |
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
As I understand it, Brawl is actually a different power with its own animation for every possible weapon/shield it can be used with. Kick would require the same setup.
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Back Alley Brawler once mentioned that, of all the powers in the game, Brawl has the most going on with it's animation. It is keyed to work without redraw with every weapon set in existence. Each weapon set has it's own combat stance, and every time you use a power not in that set it causes redraw. For an example of that, look at Regen with a weapon set. You wouldn't think healing yourself would require a redraw, but it does, because it is a power not in your weapon based powerset.
In order for Kick to no longer cause redraw, they would have to give it a separate animation for every combat stance. That's what they did with Brawl.
Key point: They did that with Brawl because everyone has it. I doubt they will do all that work to remove redraw from 2 powers in a power pool that not everyone will have.
Apparently, BaBs was working on getting rid of redraw altogether, but ran into a snag where it broke something very badly (like, powers not working at all badly). We're probably going to have to wait until he fixes that to get Kick without redraw.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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BaBs is gone |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Apparently, BaBs was working on getting rid of redraw altogether, but ran into a snag where it broke something very badly (like, powers not working at all badly). We're probably going to have to wait until he fixes that to get Kick without redraw.
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DevArt Page: http://tamedragon.deviantart.com/
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Stupefy: Chance for Knockback.|
Originally Posted by RiOTWRAiTH
And if boxing causes redraw, there is no reason to sink sh*t into that instead, either.
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The only way you'll ever have more fun with one slot would be to drop ten large on a "personal escort". This is far cheaper, and less likely to get you a month in slam.
The simple answer is that Brawl is a special case, and it's likely, if not 100% certain, that "cut and paste" is not possible. It's a Power that is simply wired up differently from the way all other Powers are wired up. Most Powers get one animation for a given state, so for instance you've got one while standing, one while flying, one with no weapon drawn (which causes you to draw the weapon) and so on. Brawl actually has TWO animations for standing, one with no weapon drawn, and one with a weapon drawn. And it has DIFFERENT animations for each of its weapons. There's only one "weapon drawn" state, but Brawl somehow selects its animation based on which weapon is drawn.
If this is hardcoded into the engine, then there is nothing that can be done, outside of further modifying the engine. Brawl is really the ONLY thing that can have a sequencer move that DOESN'T put you into the "weapon drawn" state, which is really what BaBs was talking about in that post. In all other cases, if you want a Power that can work compatably with a drawn weapon, it actually has to draw the weapon. So you still have the redraw problem, you've just moved it.
To sum up, in order for Kick to be used with a drawn weapon, it would have to make you draw the weapon when you used it.
It's also highly likely that to make a Power able to select from a larger selection of animations like Brawl would also make it impossible for it to have Power Customization. Although I do find myself wondering if this could be used as a workaround. (For instance, allow weapon users to select a custom animation that has their weapon out)
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This isn't actually quite correct. According to BaBs the way it works is that animations are based on "combat stances" with a total of 7 different combat stances in game. Functionally this is pretty similar to what you were talking about, the main difference is that there are 6 different "weapon drawn" stances depending on what weapon type is being used. So Brawl actually has 7 different animations, although several of them use the same visuals (for example it uses a "kick" animation for people dual wielding or carrying shields despite those being different stances).|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
The simple answer is that Brawl is a special case, and it's likely, if not 100% certain, that "cut and paste" is not possible. It's a Power that is simply wired up differently from the way all other Powers are wired up. Most Powers get one animation for a given state, so for instance you've got one while standing, one while flying, one with no weapon drawn (which causes you to draw the weapon) and so on. Brawl actually has TWO animations for standing, one with no weapon drawn, and one with a weapon drawn. And it has DIFFERENT animations for each of its weapons. There's only one "weapon drawn" state, but Brawl somehow selects its animation based on which weapon is drawn.
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http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...0&postcount=26
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Well, I thought that the separate stances only counted with Brawl, but I guess you're right. Again, though, I think the issue is that Brawl is the one Power that's allowed to perform a non-weapon animation without drawing the weapon. That's why Brawl can do one thing if you have a weapon out, but another if you don't. The other Powers don't have the capability of doing that, even if you COULD assign them an animation for each weapon. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
This isn't actually quite correct. According to BaBs the way it works is that animations are based on "combat stances" with a total of 7 different combat stances in game. Functionally this is pretty similar to what you were talking about, the main difference is that there are 6 different "weapon drawn" stances depending on what weapon type is being used. So Brawl actually has 7 different animations, although several of them use the same visuals (for example it uses a "kick" animation for people dual wielding or carrying shields despite those being different stances).
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...0&postcount=26 |
Best case scenario would be that you would Kick with your weapon out, the weapon would stay out -- and then it would go away. (Because Kick has a Combat stance)
Note, BTW, Dual Blades, I believe, kicks with the Brawl, but Dual Pistols is the "pistol whip" animation. So Brawl has an animation that DOESN'T map to those 7 stances.
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Almost certainly. If it's doable with Brawl it is theoretically doable with any power. I suspect the problem is more with the code bloat that would occur with doing so and a desire to avoid it. I think the best case would be new alternate animations through the power customization systems. So you can (for example) use Kick without putting your sword away but if your sword is away you have to draw it before kicking someone. I would think that doing that would not result in more code bloat than the current alternate animations but I'll admit I can't prove that.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Well, I thought that the separate stances only counted with Brawl, but I guess you're right. Again, though, I think the issue is that Brawl is the one Power that's allowed to perform a non-weapon animation without drawing the weapon. That's why Brawl can do one thing if you have a weapon out, but another if you don't. The other Powers don't have the capability of doing that, even if you COULD assign them an animation for each weapon.
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| Note, BTW, Dual Blades, I believe, kicks with the Brawl, but Dual Pistols is the "pistol whip" animation. So Brawl has an animation that DOESN'T map to those 7 stances. |
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What I suspect is Brawl is a "kludge". Although no specifics have been given, from the way BaBs and others talk about it it sounds like Brawl itself is hardcoded to skip the relevant tables and jump directly to the proper animation sequences. Of course, those sequences must be modifiable in some way, or the custom animations when Dual Pistols or other Power Sets were added could not have been linked to. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
If it's doable with Brawl it is theoretically doable with any power.
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So "theoretically doable with any power" may mean breaking into the game engine and altering the code so that other Powers besides Brawl can be redirected to these alternate sequencers.
Granted, I could be talking out of my hat here, and it could be as easy as just copying and pasting as others have said. I would expect if that was the case it would have been done by now. Then, I suppose, the issue comes down to, "Do we do this for Punch and Kick, and have people complain that we haven't done Air Superiority or Jump Kick?"
Yes kick causes redraw have on my broadsword / regen scrapper and is very disheartening maybe is time they took time fix whole redraw issue instead focusing on lame packs and such.
...Only have it on a ss/invul tank. The animation rules,but...
Now that my Broadsword/Willpower scrapper is ready to take on the fighting pool, Ive got 2 questions for the community, If Y'all happen to know.
Thanks in advance.
p.s. I'm not the spelliest (sp?) of posters.
1)does kick animation cause redraw of my broadsword?
2)what do u think is the best enhancement to one slot it with?(it accepts knockback and melee damage IO's) Uniques and/ or procs aren't out of the equation.
Ok that's about it.
Rock on!