A way to offset Fitness (for thematic RP characters)
By
Arctic_Princess,
Posted on: 2010-10-07 18:35 in Suggestions and Ideas
I'm not AGAINST Inherent Fitness and I'm not really FOR a way to "turn off" Inherent Fitness for RP purposes.
But I do find it sad that there's such a basic hatred here towards the concept of in-game "disadvantages/weaknesses" especially when you consider it's a cornerstone of the comic book genre. Anyone heard of what Kryptonite does to Superman? 
Obviously I would never suggest forcing people to have built-in weaknesses if you didn't want them. But it's unfortunate that people are so vocally whiny about being against anything even remotely like it because I feel it's a huge part of the comic book experience that's being overlooked by the Devs of this game. When I was big into playing the Champions table-top RPG being able to work interesting disadvantages/weaknesses into your character concepts was one of the coolest things about that game and kept it from devolving into pointless silly Tankmagery. With something to actually have to WORRY about it made playing that game much more challenging and fun.
I will always be for OPTIONAL ways to introduce a workable Disadvantage concept to this game. The Devs provided us limited ways to do that when they gave us optional difficulty settings for missions and Task/Strike Forces but there's so much more that could be added. Basically I think being able to run around like "Superman without the threat of Kryptonite" has made this game ultimately too simple and less entertaining than it could have been.
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I have a better idea. If you want to be completely realistic about movement in the game, toggle Walk.
In actual combat, when you power up, just chalk it up to an adrenaline rush making you seem to move faster.
There, nasty RP problems SOLVED.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
I'm not AGAINST Inherent Fitness and I'm not really FOR a way to "turn off" Inherent Fitness for RP purposes.
But I do find it sad that there's such a basic hatred here towards the concept of in-game "disadvantages/weaknesses" especially when you consider it's a cornerstone of the comic book genre. Anyone heard of what Kryptonite does to Superman? Obviously I would never suggest forcing people to have built-in weaknesses if you didn't want them. But it's unfortunate that people are so vocally whiny about being against anything even remotely like it because I feel it's a huge part of the comic book experience that's being overlooked by the Devs of this game. When I was big into playing the Champions table-top RPG being able to work interesting disadvantages/weaknesses into your character concepts was one of the coolest things about that game and kept it from devolving into pointless silly Tankmagery. With something to actually have to WORRY about it made playing that game much more challenging and fun. I will always be for OPTIONAL ways to introduce a workable Disadvantage concept to this game. The Devs provided us limited ways to do that when they gave us optional difficulty settings for missions and Task/Strike Forces but there's so much more that could be added. Basically I think being able to run around like "Superman without the threat of Kryptonite" has made this game ultimately too simple and less entertaining than it could have been. |
But Superman can reshape planets, travel in time, move beyond the speed of light, etc. He's also invulnerable to just about anything but cosmic-level cataclysms.
Not invulnerable the way CoH heroes are invulnerable. With resistance, they still take damage and can die from enough. With defense, they an avoid most damage, but can still die from lucky shot syndrome.
Superman has sufficient strength to completely annihilate most common foes instantly. And only his upbringing prevents him from unloading on higher-level foes all the time (as he could still easily kill them).
Player strength/power is barely sufficient to knock out minions, and with some augmentation, the occasional weak lieutenant. It's pretty much impossible to one-shot bosses in the game and forget about EB, GM, and AV class characters.
Hero's in CoH already have a massive disadvantage/weakness.
GAME BALANCE.
It is the universal kryptonite of each and every PC in the game.
In short, if you're serious about RP, you should have exactly ZERO gripes about inherent Fitness. Because you should already have explanations in place for the effects it will give to your PCs.
RP is about telling yourself and others a story. BE MORE CREATIVE.
'nuff said.
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Once again I have no problem with Inherent Fitness RP-wise or any other way. But clearly you got hung up on the use of Superman as an example of what I what trying to explain in terms of Disads. Obviously Superman is a very extreme example as far as superhero power goes.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Hero's in CoH already have a massive disadvantage/weakness.
GAME BALANCE. It is the universal kryptonite of each and every PC in the game. In short, if you're serious about RP, you should have exactly ZERO gripes about inherent Fitness. Because you should already have explanations in place for the effects it will give to your PCs. RP is about telling yourself and others a story. BE MORE CREATIVE. 'nuff said. |
I never meant to suggest CoH was not already a balanced game in general. What I was suggesting was a system of optional disadvantages that we could apply to our characters for not only RP purposes but as a means to provide a further challenge for those who find the game to be relatively simplistic. Again I'll point to what the Devs have already provided in the way of mission difficulty settings. All I'm suggesting is having "more" of that.
When the Devs first introduced Kheldians and their vulnerability to things like voids/quants this was exactly the type of thing I was looking for. But the reason everybody whined and moaned about it was that there was no OPTION when it came to this weakness - if you wanted to play a Kheld you HAD to accept that disadvantage. That's why the Devs eventually watered down the whole idea and made their "weakness" fairly insignificant.
If the Devs gave us options like allowing our characters to be vulnerable to selectable enemy types or damage types at character creation it would go far to allow us to make sure none of us end up with god-like Supermen to begin with. We could help the Devs balance the game for them with our OWN choices.
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*Adds Lothic to 'The List'*|
Originally Posted by Lothic
That's why the Devs eventually watered down the whole idea and made their "weakness" fairly insignificant.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I happen to think the original level of Kheldian vulnerability to voids/quants was acceptable and valid. I managed to level up a couple of Khelds back then without extreme difficulty. It was refreshingly cool to actually have to be worried about something like a "deadly sworn enemy" that could zap you if your tactics didn't account for them. It kept me from sleep-walking through many missions because I actually had to pay attention to what I was doing. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
*Adds Lothic to 'The List'*
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Obviously most people didn't agree with my opinion on that because the Devs eventually caved in to all the whining about it.
They watered down the severity of that threat to its currently semi-trivial level.
If my thoughts on the matter puts me on some kind of "List" then so be it. *shrugs*
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Adding some kind of kryptonite is a great idea. But the implementation was much too binary and simple.
It would be a much better implementation if weaknesses were debuffs or specfic power cancels, and they would occur only with teams and/or certain difficulty settings. But CoH is too caught up with its simplistic reward system to make using such settings worthwhile, which is evidenced by the TF difficulty settings which STILL don't reward you and are for those few people who are willing to take them as a challenge.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Oh they changed that ridiculous game mechanism? |
Originally Posted by Lothic
I happen to think the original level of Kheldian vulnerability to voids/quants was acceptable and valid. I managed to level up a couple of Khelds back then without extreme difficulty.
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Neat!
That means the next one I make probably won't get deleted in a fit of nerdrage.
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Personally, I'd take the old vulnerability setting if it did away with spawning those crystals.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Oh they changed that ridiculous game mechanism?
Neat! That means the next one I make probably won't get deleted in a fit of nerdrage. |
As a choice, I guess it could be up to the player:
-Setting 1 = big vulnerability to the voids' weapons and no/very rare crystal spawnings.
-Setting 2 = little vulnerability to the voids' weapons and normal crystal spawnings.
That'd probably be the only way I'd go with a flaws/weakness system is if they had alternative strengths you'd gain (but not gameable choices). I wouldn't mind some of my Invulnerable characters crumbling (-res) to psionics in exchange for something like more debuff resists like vs defense debuffs.
...hmm, maybe we should crack another thread open for discussion.
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No. Actually I didn't. What I was trying to convey was that the game gives a much narrower scope to the concept due to the demands of game balance (or at least the devs' perception of it).|
Originally Posted by Lothic
But clearly you got hung up on the use of Superman as an example of what I what trying to explain in terms of Disads.
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If you choose to think I'm getting hung up on the concept of superman vs CoH heroes, you've missed my point.
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Catch 22: There's no point in adding the ability to put weaknesses on your character if those don't come with an associated strength, and that's a system which wouldn't work very well with our powers system and is far beyond the scope of this thread.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
I will always be for OPTIONAL ways to introduce a workable Disadvantage concept to this game. The Devs provided us limited ways to do that when they gave us optional difficulty settings for missions and Task/Strike Forces but there's so much more that could be added. Basically I think being able to run around like "Superman without the threat of Kryptonite" has made this game ultimately too simple and less entertaining than it could have been.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Maybe just because you and certain others find the Voids/Quants 'trivial' doesn't everyone else does?|
Originally Posted by Lothic
I happen to think the original level of Kheldian vulnerability to voids/quants was acceptable and valid. I managed to level up a couple of Khelds back then without extreme difficulty. It was refreshingly cool to actually have to be worried about something like a "deadly sworn enemy" that could zap you if your tactics didn't account for them. It kept me from sleep-walking through many missions because I actually had to pay attention to what I was doing.
Obviously most people didn't agree with my opinion on that because the Devs eventually caved in to all the whining about it. They watered down the severity of that threat to its currently semi-trivial level. If my thoughts on the matter puts me on some kind of "List" then so be it. *shrugs* |
I for one despise them utterly, despite having methods of ID'ing them early (tab bound to target Kheld specifics as a priority)
Even when ID'd, if I so much as miss with Incandescent Strike or Gravity Well, I'm looking at a world of hurt from even a minion class enemy. Why? Well, first of all, Q guns have a rediculously high chance% for Knockdown, to which Kheldians have no resistance. They also have what seems to be a moderate/decent chance to stun, on top of that. The guns ALSO fire as fast as it takes for a character to get up again from being Knocked down.
So, when accuracy decides to flip me the bird, what tends to happen is;
-Shot by Q gunner and Knocked Down
-Rest of mob stars wailing on me too
-Get back up
-Q gun has by now recharged and fires again, often before I can get another attack off.
Now, I can just see what the responses will be; "Use the energy shield!", "Use Dwarf Form!" or good old "Learn to Play!"
None of those are valid. Right now Kheld builds are insanely tight, although I19 may make that a bit easier, especially on my Human PB, making it hard to justify the energy shield in the early/mid levels just to deal with one enemy type. And yes, on my PB Dwarf form isnt even an option. Not to mention it seems to do naff all in way of damage mitigation (I have a whole other opinion on that one...)
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Well you did at least jump to the conclusion that I thought there was an issue of game balance in question here and/or that I didn't consider it. I never thought there was a general problem with the current game balance and my suggestion of adding a more robust Disad system to this game was not an attempt to "fix" anything that I perceived to be broken.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
No. Actually I didn't. What I was trying to convey was that the game gives a much narrower scope to the concept due to the demands of game balance (or at least the devs' perception of it).
If you choose to think I'm getting hung up on the concept of superman vs CoH heroes, you've missed my point. |
My suggestion is more of a "QoL improvement" idea for people who would either like a new optional tool for RP expression or would like the extra challenge of playing this relatively easy game by self-gimping themselves. Obviously not everyone would like it and if you're one of those people you wouldn't have to use it.
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The 'real' Catch 22: There are some people who might choose to give themselves Disads WITHOUT any expectation of getting strengths in return. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Catch 22: There's no point in adding the ability to put weaknesses on your character if those don't come with an associated strength, and that's a system which wouldn't work very well with our powers system and is far beyond the scope of this thread.
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I understand the idea of self-gimping a MMO character is literally a laughably unthinkable notion to some people, maybe even most people. But the idea of having weaknesses without reciprocal advantages is, once again, a cornerstone concept in comic book lore and as such ought to at least be a legitimate OPTIONAL consideration for a superhero MMO game.
I realize it's a hard thing for a MMO like this to try to do that well. Clearly the Kheldian inherent weakness to quants/voids was handled badly and most people hated it because again MMO players don't usually think in terms of things that gimp you as a "good" thing. I can accept the reality of the situation.
Even if such an optional Disad system existed in this game I probably would not use it for every character I have, but I would use it when I wanted to as a justifiable QoL improvement.
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I think posts like this only goes to prove that different people who play this game can experience it from vastly different points of view.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Maybe just because you and certain others find the Voids/Quants 'trivial' doesn't everyone else does?
I for one despise them utterly, despite having methods of ID'ing them early (tab bound to target Kheld specifics as a priority) Even when ID'd, if I so much as miss with Incandescent Strike or Gravity Well, I'm looking at a world of hurt from even a minion class enemy. Why? Well, first of all, Q guns have a rediculously high chance% for Knockdown, to which Kheldians have no resistance. They also have what seems to be a moderate/decent chance to stun, on top of that. The guns ALSO fire as fast as it takes for a character to get up again from being Knocked down. So, when accuracy decides to flip me the bird, what tends to happen is; -Shot by Q gunner and Knocked Down -Rest of mob stars wailing on me too -Get back up -Q gun has by now recharged and fires again, often before I can get another attack off. Now, I can just see what the responses will be; "Use the energy shield!", "Use Dwarf Form!" or good old "Learn to Play!" None of those are valid. Right now Kheld builds are insanely tight, although I19 may make that a bit easier, especially on my Human PB, making it hard to justify the energy shield in the early/mid levels just to deal with one enemy type. And yes, on my PB Dwarf form isnt even an option. Not to mention it seems to do naff all in way of damage mitigation (I have a whole other opinion on that one...) |
I'm not going to bother to tell you to "Learn to Play" or anything like that. I'm sure there are things I could do better in this game myself. All I can say is that I never had the kinds of problems or dissatisfaction with playing Kheldians that you seem to have had. Dealing with the built-in Kheldian weakness at its original level was never a "trivial" thing and sure I got killed by it plenty of times. Ultimately I can't really explain why it didn't bother me as much as others - maybe I just managed to see it as a challenge to figure out and overcome rather than an annoyance to complain about. YMMV.
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That's not actually a Catch 22 |
Originally Posted by Lothic
The 'real' Catch 22: There are some people who might choose to give themselves Disads WITHOUT any expectation of getting strengths in return.
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The central problem with what you're suggesting is you're highly unlikely to convince anyone in power (or many people in general) that it's a good thing. You're working with something that most people would look at and as "So I don't get anything for gimping myself? Why would I want to do that, then?" I understand RP concerns... Somewhat well, but at the end of the day this is still a game, and adding what amounts to a sucker trap that you'll get more people picking without realising what they're doing than anything else just isn't very likely to happen.
I tried playing a Kheldian. I swore to never try playing a Kheldian again unless they were vastly improved. Voids were a large part of that. Voids are cheap enemies. They tie your hands behind your back, nullify your powers and then taunt you for being a hard fight. I level up for the powers. I enjoy seeing my character grow stronger. To suddenly have the game just disregard my strengths and essentially cheat me does not motivate me to try harder. It just pisses me off.
What has ruined so many characters for me is a simple recurring problem. I meet a lieutenant, I realise how hard the fight is, and I realise that this lieutenant is harder than most bosses on other characters. I then proceed to parse through my vocabulary of profanities and ragequit out of that character, never to be logged in again. A void encounter is what caused me to do this to my Peacebringer.
A weakness for the sake of having a weakness only ever works if you're forced to take it, or if there's a benefit to taking it. Arcanum used to force you to take one specific strength and one specific weakness. For instance, you could be incredibly handsome but dumb as a rick, to include lacking most dialogue options, or you could be incredibly strong, but allergic to magic, to include making the game unwinnable when you had to equip a magic amulet for part of the main quest. That system worked because having a weakness felt like a legitimate part of the game's balance system. Having a weakness for the sake of having a weakness, however, is an extravagance which would in all likelihood be difficult to realise but would bring almost no practical benefit or - and I mean this - much added value to the game.
In an ideal world then sure. Why not? But I just don't see this realistically.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yes I know. But technically your statement wasn't really one either. You were simply stating a logical counterpoint to my idea.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That's not actually a Catch 22
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I figured since you fudged your point to try to make it sound like a Catch 22 I'd follow suit just to mess with you.
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The central problem with what you're suggesting is you're highly unlikely to convince anyone in power (or many people in general) that it's a good thing. You're working with something that most people would look at and as "So I don't get anything for gimping myself? Why would I want to do that, then?" I understand RP concerns... Somewhat well, but at the end of the day this is still a game, and adding what amounts to a sucker trap that you'll get more people picking without realising what they're doing than anything else just isn't very likely to happen. I tried playing a Kheldian. I swore to never try playing a Kheldian again unless they were vastly improved. Voids were a large part of that. Voids are cheap enemies. They tie your hands behind your back, nullify your powers and then taunt you for being a hard fight. I level up for the powers. I enjoy seeing my character grow stronger. To suddenly have the game just disregard my strengths and essentially cheat me does not motivate me to try harder. It just pisses me off. What has ruined so many characters for me is a simple recurring problem. I meet a lieutenant, I realise how hard the fight is, and I realise that this lieutenant is harder than most bosses on other characters. I then proceed to parse through my vocabulary of profanities and ragequit out of that character, never to be logged in again. A void encounter is what caused me to do this to my Peacebringer. A weakness for the sake of having a weakness only ever works if you're forced to take it, or if there's a benefit to taking it. Arcanum used to force you to take one specific strength and one specific weakness. For instance, you could be incredibly handsome but dumb as a rick, to include lacking most dialogue options, or you could be incredibly strong, but allergic to magic, to include making the game unwinnable when you had to equip a magic amulet for part of the main quest. That system worked because having a weakness felt like a legitimate part of the game's balance system. Having a weakness for the sake of having a weakness, however, is an extravagance which would in all likelihood be difficult to realise but would bring almost no practical benefit or - and I mean this - much added value to the game. In an ideal world then sure. Why not? But I just don't see this realistically. |
Please don't get me wrong here: I SERIOUSLY doubt what I'm suggesting will ever happen because far too many people will NEVER want to gimp themselves in a MMO, even if there was some other indirect in-game advantage for doing so. You really didn't have to make a case for your point of view - I already said I know most MMO players' brains aren't wired that way.
I simply believe that an optional Disad system would be appropriate here because it fits the comic book theme of this game. I never said it would be easy to do or even accepted by the majority of the players. But then again can you honestly name a QoL improvement to this game that absolutely EVERYONE thought was a good idea?
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No. Actually I didn't. I merely threw it out there because you were dancing around the point without addressing it directly.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Well you did at least jump to the conclusion that I thought there was an issue of game balance in question here and/or that I didn't consider it.
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| My suggestion is more of a "QoL improvement" idea for people who would either like a new optional tool for RP expression or would like the extra challenge of playing this relatively easy game by self-gimping themselves. |
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It was definitely "thrown" out there. You basically offered "the game is already balanced" as a some kind of justification for why the Devs shouldn't consider adding an optional QoL system. My suggestion wasn't a "fix" for game balance or even something that would "destroy" game balance because it would be absolutely optional. In a nutshell the fundamental balance of this game really had NOTHING to do with this.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
No. Actually I didn't. I merely threw it out there because you were dancing around the point without addressing it directly.
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It's fine if you don't like this idea. But there are people who consider this game to be (relatively speaking) too easy, regardless of it being "balanced". Like the optional mission difficult settings this idea would provide another layer of challenge for those who want more without affecting anyone else's enjoyment of this game.
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| Thing is, most of these "disadvantage" systems are actually advantage/disadvantage systems. Semi-points-based where you can use disadvantages to rack up "credit" towards other advantages. A lot of players would seriously question a self-gimping system with no benefit other than simple RP function. Heck, it'd even be a tough sell to the devs. Especially with the difficulty modifiers already in place to take your down a peg (or two...or four). |
Obviously to "sell" a system of Disads to the average MMO player the Devs of this game would indeed likely have to make some kind of advantage/disadvantage system out of it. Frankly I consider it sad that the Devs would have to "trick" people into trying this with a candy coating like that. I'm willing to challenge myself by trying to play this game even with Disads because it would be cool to actually play with ALL the aspects of the comic book universe, not just the ones that make typical MMO players happy. YMMV.
P.S. As you point out we ALREADY have a system in place that lets us take ourselves down a peg (or two...or four) with the mission difficulty settings. All I'm really suggesting is an optional expansion to that. From that point of view it really doesn't seem like it'd be that "tough a sell" to the Devs since they've already come part way there on their own. *shrugs*
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I did NOT say "the game is already balanced".|
Originally Posted by Lothic
It was definitely "thrown" out there. You basically offered "the game is already balanced" as a some kind of justification for why the Devs shouldn't consider adding an optional QoL system.
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I talked about the concept of game balance in relation to the variance in power levels between PCs and NPCs like Statesman and even genre staples like Superman.
BIG difference.
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| Obviously to "sell" a system of Disads to the average MMO player the Devs of this game would indeed likely have to make some kind of advantage/disadvantage system out of it. Frankly I consider it sad that the Devs would have to "trick" people into trying this with a candy coating like that. I'm willing to challenge myself by trying to play this game even with Disads because it would be cool to actually play with ALL the aspects of the comic book universe, not just the ones that make typical MMO players happy. YMMV. |
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| P.S. As you point out we ALREADY have a system in place that lets us take ourselves down a peg (or two...or four) with the mission difficulty settings. All I'm really suggesting is an optional expansion to that. From that point of view it really doesn't seem like it'd be that "tough a sell" to the Devs since they've already come part way there on their own. *shrugs* |
Something like "hunted" I could see. Have a random enemy ambush during missions or in-zone, etc. But a bunch of them are not really quantifiable, which is going to make adding a working SYSTEM in the game difficult at best.
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Thread status: Derailed
Suggestion status: Denied as a consensus. Can we move on to better things now?
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Well... There really isn't anything I can say about this other than "OK." It can't do much harm since I can simply not use it, so really, I can't argue against it. It's just really hard to argue FOR it, as you've explained yourself. Schmuck bait aside, it's harmless, just... Unlikely.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
I simply believe that an optional Disad system would be appropriate here because it fits the comic book theme of this game. I never said it would be easy to do or even accepted by the majority of the players. But then again can you honestly name a QoL improvement to this game that absolutely EVERYONE thought was a good idea?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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IRL you'd be dead in 5 minutes.
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