After a certain threshold, it ceases to matter; once you are tough enough to survive anything over that is just gravy. Properly selected (ie not self-gimped by bad power selections) slotted (ie, sufficient slots on key powers and using IO's effectively) and played well (ie the player is competent) pretty much all of the sets are very survivable - even Energy Aura.
However, if you are casual, don't want to min/max, don't want to wait until the last 10 or so levels to feel powerful, and want to just wade into packs of mobs and stand there while they beat on you, I think Invul or WP are your best bets.
Invul is tougher but not entirely toggle and go - you'll occasionally need to click Dull Pain or Unstoppable vs certain types of baddies. WP has issues with big initial salvos, but this is easily mitigated with orange purple and / or green skittles. You do have a t9 clickie but its so mild that I don't even bother to take it on some WP characters.
With both Invul and WP tankers (not brutes), I've gone and made a meal or a fresh pot of coffee while being pack attacked. They're still healthy when I come back. Sometimes I'll auto-toggle an PBAoE and let them auto-whittle the mob down while I take care of other business. Very durable.
I've got some soft-capped DEF characters that are equivalently tough, but you can't ever really rule out the RNG hating on you unpredictably, so they aren't quite as reliably tough. Also, it takes an IO investment and effort to get there. They also tend to be squishier at early levels, pre-DO and pre-SO.
Dark/Dark is AWESOME and powerful and does crazy things at the high end, but you have to pay attention and use your clickies or you will go down. For thematic reasons I've never paired Dark Armor with anything other than Dark Melee so I can't speak to how it fares with other attack sets. EDIT: though, now that I think about it, it's really Dark Regen and Siphon Life (not to mention to hit debuffs) that keep me alive, so maybe DA itself isn't the awesome in that awesome sauce.
Fire is obviously not that "tough" in the taking of damage department, but it does feel tough in the wow I totally waxed that mob in no time flat sense.
I haven't gotten an Electric Armor guy very high yet, but I like it. I can't speak to its high-end toughness yet. It feels very similar to Dark Armor to me, at least at lower levels.
Shield is interesting. With IO's its really ridiculous, but out of the box its squishy. A lot of swing. You do need to pay attention with shield, its much more offensive and aggressive than most sets, though not as far over as fire.
I've never gotten a stone past 10; I just d o n o t l i k e i t. YMMV.
Hope that helps....
Dark Armor almost needs to be paired with Dark Melee, IMO. The synergy is part of what you are feeling. A part of Dark Armor's survivableness comes from deterring/debuffing. That pairs nicely with the deterrring/debuffing nature of Dark Melee. A decent level of resists across the board, nothing spectacular, and a "How can you go from almost dead to full green bar?" heal power to make up for miscalculations/burst damage. THis is why the set is insane when you throw a ton of money at it. You can pump the armor numbers from the mediocre starting point to an "okay thats a little better", and notice a dramatic improvement in play. if you pump the armors (neglecting everything else in the build), to a "well it's not perfect, but it is darn good all around" you get a spectacularly tough brute. And a spectacularly tough brute can generate a lot of fury, to pump the damage. But 3 of Dark Armors toggles are actually fury killers (circling back to the deterring), so this wonky brute could be said to be the toughest guy this side of granite completely I/O'd, but plays like a undead ghetto dom on steroids.
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You're right, I don't get swarmed by Arachnos or Carnies or any Psi group.|
Originally Posted by Syntax42
Don't be fooled by this post. This person has probably not been swarmed by psionic-wielding Arachnos or had their defenses debuffed by Paragon Awakened groups. A whole 15% defense isn't going to make you feel tough against psionic damage and Invulnerability lacks significant defense debuff resistance.
Invulnerability does combine high resistance with decent defenses. It does not require IOs to "feel" invulnerable against most enemies. It does have weaknesses, though. With far less than 50% resistance against non S/L damage types, the hits that get through your defenses are going to hurt. When you have 16 enemies beating on you, those hits that get through will come far more often and may happen all at once. Unstoppable may save you in dire situations, but don't rely on it too much. Pick any defensive set and most people on these forums can point out the weaknesses. The only way to cover those up is through IO sets, which may not cover them up completely. Teaming is really the best way to overcome your weaknesses in your build. |
Why? .... wait for it....
I know my weaknesses and avoid those groups. I'm not going to dive headlong into a cluster of ice-flinging enemies on my Fire/Fire, nor am I going to run up and hug a cluster of Earth Mages on any of my Defense-based characters, NOR am I going to moon a Toxic Tarantula on any of my characters without a Toxic Resist-granting self-heal.
Furthermore, I have Combat Jumping, numerous +Defense set bonuses, the +3% Global Defense IO, and Tough Hide at my disposal. I could even take the Fighting Pool if I so chose. Without the Fighting Pool, my Elec/Invul stands at about 33% Defense to all but Psi, and since I don't face Psi, I don't have to worry about it. Even if something hits me, I have all the passives taken so I have at least 23% resistance to everything not S/L, and even then I have Dull Pain. If the excrement impacts the oscillator and I'm out of options, I burn Unstoppable.
So like I said, and this still holds true, I never die. Invul, when played to it's strengths, is monstrous and awesome.
Don't be fooled by the quoted post, reader. This is what happens when someone who lacks extensive experience with the Brute AT tries to talk down to someone who eats/sleeps/lives Brutes.
Thanks for trying, come again soon.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Certainly Invulnerability has its weaknesses. It wasn't all that long ago that Invuln was considered the red-headed step child of all melee secondaries, in fact. Invuln still isn't the best choice if you want the most consistent performance across all content. It's still comparatively weak to psionic damage, which isn't nearly as uncommon as I believe the devs originally intended. And at best, Invuln is middle-of-the-road with respect to ease of leveling (though inherent Stamina will help there).|
Originally Posted by Syntax42
Don't be fooled by this post. This person has probably not been swarmed by psionic-wielding Arachnos or had their defenses debuffed by Paragon Awakened groups. A whole 15% defense isn't going to make you feel tough against psionic damage and Invulnerability lacks significant defense debuff resistance.
Invulnerability does combine high resistance with decent defenses. It does not require IOs to "feel" invulnerable against most enemies. It does have weaknesses, though. |
But with the introduction of IOs, and with the addition of considerable debuff resistance (IIRC, ~50% DEF-debuff resistance, 20% slow/recharge resistance, 25% endurance-drain resistance -- all Tanker numbers btw), Invulnerability has become quite competitive. The most recent buffs Invuln has gotten are heavily back-loaded though, either attached to low-priority passive powers (Resist Elements/Energies), or attached to IO bonuses (which tend to favor sets with a combination of RES and DEF, and some DEF resistance).
The thing about psionic damage is that it rarely comprises 100% of an encounter's damage output. Psionic damage rarely comprises even half of an encounter's damage output. If you can effectively ignore all the rest of the incoming damage (which Invuln can do as well as or better than just about any other defensive power set), then you are protected from the practical threat of psi damage except in corner-case scenarios. It may annoy you; it may even make you sweat a bit where other sets might not, but you're probably not going to die as a direct result of psionics unless you're facing something like a psi AV.
Inspirations will generally be enough to carry you through psi-induced rough patches.
As far as DEF debuffs go, they're really not much of a problem for Invuln anymore, at least not at the high end. It's pretty easy to get to the point (through supplemental DEF powers and IO set bonuses) where Invincibility soft caps you to at least S/L attacks with one foe in melee range, whch means that Invincibility will scale much higher than the soft cap with multiple foes around you, which means that your DEF-debuff resistance doesn't have to do all the heavy lifting.
Also of note is that DEF debuffs are often packaged with lethal attacks, against which Invulnerability is crazy strong even with no DEF at all. Cimerora is a great example: The Romans' sword attacks deliver ludicrously high DEF debuffs, but an Invuln Tanker with Tough can basically laugh his way through all but the largest Roman spawns even without toggling Invincibility. When he does toggle Invincibility, most of those debuffing attacks are likely to miss.
If you want to go the extra mile with IOs, it's not terribly difficult to soft-cap to Energy/Negative attacks, too (though I'd say high-30s is more than fine with 1 foe in Invincie). Because pure-fire and pure-cold attacks are exceptionally rare, you can safely ignore that area of defense.
At the high end, Invuln is a monster against most of the game's content. Against the rest of the game's content, Invuln is comparatively weak, but it also scales very well with IO investment and buff/debuff support. To the extent that there are counters to any defensive set, Invuln is actually pretty well off in the sense that even worst-case foes typically won't spell instant disaster (unlike, say, SR in the Shadow Shard). Easily capped max HP + high common-type Resistances + self-scaling DEF makes for a pretty tough nut to crack.
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| Pick any defensive set and most people on these forums can point out the weaknesses. The only way to cover those up is through IO sets, which may not cover them up completely. Teaming is really the best way to overcome your weaknesses in your build. |
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Avoiding your weakness is an option. But, if you want to do a task force or some content that has your weakness, what are you going to do? Tell your team, "Sorry guys, I avoid these." |
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
You're right, I don't get swarmed by Arachnos or Carnies or any Psi group.
Why? .... wait for it.... I know my weaknesses and avoid those groups. I'm not going to dive headlong into a cluster of ice-flinging enemies on my Fire/Fire, nor am I going to run up and hug a cluster of Earth Mages on any of my Defense-based characters, NOR am I going to moon a Toxic Tarantula on any of my characters without a Toxic Resist-granting self-heal. |
If you manage to obtain 30% defense against Psi, you should be fine enough to tank in mobs with heavy amounts of it.
The quoted poster tries to use his "experience" to make others look like they don't know what they're talking about without even considering how much experience the person they are attempting to belittle has. My last guild leader was like that and ended up being completely wrong about extremely important things, but everyone listened blindly because he had "experience". This game does not have complex fights (save for a couple TFs) like other MMOs where experienced players have any real advantage.
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Go get one of my other Brutes who aren't weak against it.|
Originally Posted by Syntax42
Avoiding your weakness is an option. But, if you want to do a task force or some content that has your weakness, what are you going to do? Tell your team, "Sorry guys, I avoid these."
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Originally Posted by Syntax42
If you manage to obtain 30% defense against Psi, you should be fine enough to tank in mobs with heavy amounts of it.
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Originally Posted by Syntax42
The above poster tries to use his "experience" to make others look like they don't know what they're talking about without even considering how much experience the person they are attempting to belittle has. My last guild leader was like that and ended up being completely wrong about extremely important things, but everyone listened blindly because he had "experience". This game does not have complex fights (save for a couple TFs) like other MMOs where experienced players have any real advantage.
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Originally Posted by Syntax42
"The above poster tries to use his "experience" to make others look like they don't know what they're talking about without even considering how much experience the person they are attempting to belittle has."
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Before the flame war ends the post, everybody take a deep breath. Lol. And if you do not think this game has complexity, well, you are just way smarter than me. I have seen players do things that stand the game on it's head. Myself, I like to wander in and smack, so, I brute happily. But I do nod to those who are capable of magic deferentially.
Bottom line is knowing what you're going against, and making a conscious decision on how to handle it. There is no ultimate right answer, as certain powersets offer better advantages over others in certain situations. Then taking into account picking up IO sets that help shore up some of the weaknesses, or strategic use of inspirations, you can overcome just about any obstacle.
Don't I know you???
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Spend 5 minutes watching an Elec/Nin stalker and you'll experience what Blue is talking about.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I have seen players do things that stand the game on it's head.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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and it's a statement, like that right there, which truely shows your lack of understanding for this game. |
Originally Posted by Syntax42
This game does not have complex fights (save for a couple TFs) like other MMOs where experienced players have any real advantage.
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If your reg-date has anything to do with your in-game experience CoX, then I can see why you think that. There are always ways to improve your performance in this game, even simple things, like the way you pull a mob and where you pull them to. Just like any other game, there are ways to vastly increase performance. The difference between a veteran team of good players running a mission (or especially a TF) is a night and day difference than running with a team of 3-6 monthers. The veterans who "know" have advantage, yes. Sure, it may not be as complex as some other MMO's out there, but there is still a good level of complexity in this game. The only real difference, imho, is CoX isn't as strict/harsh/less forgiving to those who aren't willing to fully obide by that complexity as other MMO's are, which imho is wonderful for the average player who simply wants to hop online and have fun for about 30 min to an hour. No one should be forced to make a game their career/life, but if you want that level of involvment, it IS complex enough to give it to you.
Anyways....you don't appear to really know how Invln, or buffs/defenses, truely work in this game. DP is not only an AWESOME heal which will pretty much give you your ENTIRE HP bar back if you're at around a quarter health, but ON TOP of that, it will massively increase your Hit Points, which DOES, in effect, equal higher resistances....even to psi. IIRC, DP is the equivalent of a 35-40% +res buff, thanks to it's HP value and heal.
Think logically for me here and let me break this down for you....we'll start with Resistance: lets say you're fighting a mob that deals 100 pts of smashing damage, you have 100 hp, so you toggle on a +res toggle that grants you 25% resistance to his damage. He hits you for 100 pts of damage, your toggle reduces that damage by 25%, so the final damage inflicted is now 75 pts, and you're left with 25 HP.
Ok, now for a +Total HP Power: same scenario, you have 100 hp, the mob deals 100 pts smashing damage, but this time, you don't have a +res toggle. Instead, you click a +HP power before running in which grants you +100 hp, which gives you a total of 200 HP. The mob hits you for 100 pts of damage, you recieve FULL damage for his attack and are reduced from 200 hp to 100 hp. Resulting HP? 100 HP.
Results: 100 HP (with DP and no +res) vs. 25 HP (with +res and no DP)
So, as you can see, in this rather simple example, DP "can" work just like +res, and in many cases, exceed it. In my scenario, I didn't even take into account the healing portion that DP has, which is a HEFTY +40% heal. That would only further skew the numbers in favor of DP, and show even more proof that it definitely "acts" as a form of +res. If +res is meant to reduce incoming damage type, then DP's added HP does the same thing.
For a simple example, even healing can be viewed as +res to an extent (something I didn't even account for in my simple scenarios). If I have a healing power which can heal me from 1 hp to full in one click, so a 100% heal, and I use it when I'm at around 5 HP, in essence I've given myself around 50% +res, since it will force the mob to have to tear away at ALL the HP I just got back, for a second time, effectively doubling the time it takes for him to finally defeat me. Anyways, these are simple examples, which could be taken even further and combined with even more number crunching to get the total actual values, which may be slightly lower or even higher than those I've displayed.
The bottom line is: Invln has a "form" of +res to psi, it's called Dull Pain. It may not be the "best" form, but it's definitely there, and definitely helpful.
Heals help. Lol. Yes, they do. In fact, one of the reasons I am not going to run my Dark/Invul as a capped build is the combat heal attack in dark. I can spam that sucker for a portion of a fight, and hold off all but the fugliest situations. I use it as part of my attack chain now (29th level), but plan on it being a solely tactical support heal (1-2 acc, 3 rech, 1-2 heal SO), (er +resistance work according to the above posts logic). Since I will be running a super recharge build, I may even be able to feather off the recharge in this for more acc/heal, and still have it up constantly and spammable. That is the goal for this power in my build, with Dull Pain available every fight as well, my heals, (er, +Res), should help me brute through even a tough Psi fight.
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Honestly, you may be able to shoehorn it as both a meaty attack AND a tactical support heal. Frankenslot, my friend! Use three pieces of Accurate Healing sets and 3 pieces of Melee sets; aim for Acc, Dam, Heal and Recharge. The biggest benefit of Siphon Life is that (since the change way back) it hits like a train on any Brute over 50% Fury.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Heals help. Lol. Yes, they do. In fact, one of the reasons I am not going to run my Dark/Invul as a capped build is the combat heal attack in dark. I can spam that sucker for a portion of a fight, and hold off all but the fugliest situations. I use it as part of my attack chain now (29th level), but plan on it being a solely tactical support heal (1-2 acc, 3 rech, 1-2 heal SO), (er +resistance work according to the above posts logic). Since I will be running a super recharge build, I may even be able to feather off the recharge in this for more acc/heal, and still have it up constantly and spammable. That is the goal for this power in my build, with Dull Pain available every fight as well, my heals, (er, +Res), should help me brute through even a tough Psi fight.
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If you want I can PM you with some suggestions on how to slot it.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Yeah, thats why its part of my current attack chain. But without end reduction slotted (as I do) the benefits are out wayed by the price. I will have better attacks up more often as I hit 50, get later game attack, get more rech. Then I can slot the combat heal for emergency green bar restoration/maintenance, and have a attack chain separate.
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You know, normally I'm not the one to delve into an argument post such as the one I'm about to make, and I almost never berate someone for their subbed time, but...***|
Originally Posted by Syntax42
Don't be fooled by this post. This person has probably not been swarmed by psionic-wielding Arachnos or had their defenses debuffed by Paragon Awakened groups. A whole 15% defense isn't going to make you feel tough against psionic damage and Invulnerability lacks significant defense debuff resistance.
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Where on earth did you get the idea to throw those first two lines at me when I subbed in '06 at the LAUNCH of City of Villains, the INTRODUCTION for Arachnos? I have at least three years on you if your Forum Join date is at all accurate. What makes you think, with the guides I've written and the character's I've leveled to 50 that I've never once encountered the two most notoriously nasty enemy groups in the original game?
***- Poster is having a bad day and is very likely to debate everything in his current state of mind. You can respond or shrug it off, as said poster needed to vent. If the above at all offends you please realize that healthy debate is a great outlet for frustration and any responses will be quite therapeutic to this poster. Peace out, yo.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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I keep seeing this sentiment repeated, and it bugs me. I leveled my SS/DA brute to 50 pre IOs and it was playable and fun back then. It did take some serious work adjusting slotting to manage end, and I could understand someone making a statement like this preIOs.| Dark Armor almost needs to be paired with Dark Melee, IMO. |
But these days? Intelligent frankenslotting = you don't have end problems, and Miracle+Numinas+TheftoEss+Perf.Shifter = lol end. DA also has enough defense that it can be combined with IO bonuses for extreme effectiveness. Recharge bonuses and hasten with Dark Regen mean that in order to die, I have to lose almost all of my HP, heal, and then lose it all again in less than 10-15 seconds. If a mob can't kill me in less than 15 seconds (while I'm Footstomping and possibly using mez auras for extra mitigation) then they can't kill me.
Is DM/DA great? Absolutely. But there's a whole world of other combinations out there that are crazy effective and fun. I just hate to see an old preIO based player perception (which was only sorta true back then) keep people from experimenting with DA now.
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Oh so much this. After my DM/DA tank of awesomeness, I decided to try out other combos for other ATs. My level 38 claws/da brutes is just nuts. I grab big groups of fun, dish tons of damage and live through some rather insane encounters. All without either control aura. By the time I am done with him, he will be a pure engine of destruction, and almost impossible to kill.
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Originally Posted by Greyhame
I keep seeing this sentiment repeated, and it bugs me. I leveled my SS/DA brute to 50 pre IOs and it was playable and fun back then. It did take some serious work adjusting slotting to manage end, and I could understand someone making a statement like this preIOs.
But these days? Intelligent frankenslotting = you don't have end problems, and Miracle+Numinas+TheftoEss+Perf.Shifter = lol end. DA also has enough defense that it can be combined with IO bonuses for extreme effectiveness. Recharge bonuses and hasten with Dark Regen mean that in order to die, I have to lose almost all of my HP, heal, and then lose it all again in less than 10-15 seconds. If a mob can't kill me in less than 15 seconds (while I'm Footstomping and possibly using mez auras for extra mitigation) then they can't kill me. Is DM/DA great? Absolutely. But there's a whole world of other combinations out there that are crazy effective and fun. I just hate to see an old preIO based player perception (which was only sorta true back then) keep people from experimenting with DA now. |
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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Agreed. Admittedly, I've never been able to combine it with anything else, but I have to say my favorite combination was Mace/Dark. It hits like a train and you have to kill it twice (or even three to five times depending on how you perceive Dark Regeneration). The only downside is Mace/Dark has to be THE most endurance-draining combo in the game next to Fire/Rad.
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Originally Posted by Greyhame
I keep seeing this sentiment repeated, and it bugs me. I leveled my SS/DA brute to 50 pre IOs and it was playable and fun back then. It did take some serious work adjusting slotting to manage end, and I could understand someone making a statement like this preIOs.
But these days? Intelligent frankenslotting = you don't have end problems, and Miracle+Numinas+TheftoEss+Perf.Shifter = lol end. DA also has enough defense that it can be combined with IO bonuses for extreme effectiveness. Recharge bonuses and hasten with Dark Regen mean that in order to die, I have to lose almost all of my HP, heal, and then lose it all again in less than 10-15 seconds. If a mob can't kill me in less than 15 seconds (while I'm Footstomping and possibly using mez auras for extra mitigation) then they can't kill me. Is DM/DA great? Absolutely. But there's a whole world of other combinations out there that are crazy effective and fun. I just hate to see an old preIO based player perception (which was only sorta true back then) keep people from experimenting with DA now. |
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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I would think SM/DA would be worse. I have mace on a tank, and it didn't seem that bad. Stone Melee, however, I have on a WP brute, with QR and Stam, and I still have end issues. That is with basic IOs slotted.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Agreed. Admittedly, I've never been able to combine it with anything else, but I have to say my favorite combination was Mace/Dark. It hits like a train and you have to kill it twice (or even three to five times depending on how you perceive Dark Regeneration). The only downside is Mace/Dark has to be THE most endurance-draining combo in the game next to Fire/Rad.
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Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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Mm. I'll have to try this combo out.|
Originally Posted by _Deth_
I would think SM/DA would be worse. I have mace on a tank, and it didn't seem that bad. Stone Melee, however, I have on a WP brute, with QR and Stam, and I still have end issues. That is with basic IOs slotted.
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Watch, I give it a shot and end up loving the crap out of it.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
My first ever character was a claws/DA scrapper back when both of those sets were considered total crap. This was on a Scrapper, during I4, but still. As the game evolved, DA became an awesome set. It is truly one of the toughest sets out there, and I imagine it's even better on a Brute.
Sadly, my scrapper is totally stripped and enhancement free at the moment. Once I19 hits I'm gonna do a respec and try to make out a build for him. It's just a daunting task to try and put together as complicated a build as Claws/DA will end up being. That and I never play on Justice anymore...
I don't know what anyone else says, cause I couldn't make it past the first page, but the Brute that just defines brute for me is a SS/Shield. Get it to softcap w/ good recharge and hitpoints and you are a killing machine. Pushing 400% damage buff without outside buffs. You don't die because they do.
"If a system can be exploited, it will be exploited. And if a developer thinks their system cannot be exploited, it'll be exploited like a new actress in her first porn movie." Sanya Weather MMORPG Examiner
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It might have escaped you but the first post indicates the thread is about the most survivable brute... |
Originally Posted by James_Donner
I don't know what anyone else says, cause I couldn't make it past the first page, but the Brute that just defines brute for me is a SS/Shield. Get it to softcap w/ good recharge and hitpoints and you are a killing machine. Pushing 400% damage buff without outside buffs. You don't die because they do.
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It always devolves. Nature of the beast I guess.