Stone is the best. But there are many many problems. Until you get granite, stone has almost the worst armors in the game, so it is a above 38 level build out only. Also, the penalties for being in granite are huge, drastically reduced power recharges, almost no movement, etc.
I am currently running a Dark Invul (my 2nd). My first is sitting at 40, is SO'd and is very strong. My new guy I started as a badger, and he looks like the right choice, the more i play him. I have face planted, although the first happened at level 20, when I was doing a really dangerous thing to get a badge. I had solo'd up until then, and no deaths. (Praetoria mission arcs, almost all) Almost got killed once when the game sent 88 minions and Lts at me in one spawn, but lived to tell the tale. The death at 20 was hunting seers in the tunnels (each one you kill brings about 5 cops, and I just kept picking off the seers without cleaning the mess up lol) At 25 I still haven't gotten my 3rd toggle, and am teaming now. Very strong build, I am the last to die during team wipes (pick up groups are so unpredictable).
I love the build, and look forward to the end game when Dark really comes into damage dealing glory. Beware though, at low levels Dark alone does not do a ton of damage and has a ragged attack chain. I use two vet reward attack powers to fill out the gaps. This can be worked around with attacks from secondary pools (the attack from flight is wonderful, has a knockup to it). Still, be aware of that at lower levels. Also, the first big attack of dark is a small cone, and you need to be good at placing that to get at least a couple people in it most of the time. It has a long activation time, and some people do not like it. It mimics the sands of mu vet power if you have that, only is of course enhancable.
The AoE attack that restores your end, and the combat heal that is a nice attack, are godsends for invulnerability, and make you feel like you always have options. Using them correctly (including building just the right amount of end use in your powers/enhancers to maximize when the AoE times with your build, so that it is never too needed, but is always useful, is an art form)
SS/Invul is a more straightforward choice, less tanky, way easier to attack with, but suffers slightly from end problems without tweaking.
Good Luck
Fantastic song, btw.
I'd go with WP or Invuln. They mature early and only get better with IOs. I cannot stress enough how Stone's survivability can cripple you in other areas.
In keeping with the pace of the song, however, I'd go with WP and a fast-attacking primary. Claws, or Dual Blades, or Super Strength.
If you never want to die (after getting to 39) Stone Armor is the way to go. The movement speed penalty for Granite Armor is easy to overcome through IO sets. The recharge and damage penalties will be noticeable no matter how hard you try. You will feel like nothing can kill you though, until you get defense debuffs stacked on you or swarmed by psionics.
Invulnerability is good against smashing and lethal damage. It feels far from invulnerable against any other damage type, and squishy against psionics.
Willpower is well-rounded, but depends on regeneration. If your regen gets debuffed, you die.
As said before, Willpower and Invulnerability will feel tough at low levels much sooner than Granite Armor. Having leveled a Stone Armor brute, I can say it is worth the wait for Granite, but I should have just gone tanker for the higher resistances.
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My 40 Elec/Invul Brute begs to differ. I don't feel squishy on him. Ever. With Combat Jumping and the 3% Global Defense IO I never die. Literally, I never die. Attacks just fly around me and anything that gets through is softened by my internal resistances. Invul is a set that requires every power taken to be fully effective, but it's totally worth it (especially with a primary that allows a skip power, like Hand Clap or Repulsing Torrent or Stun).
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Originally Posted by Syntax42
Invulnerability is good against smashing and lethal damage. It feels far from invulnerable against any other damage type, and squishy against psionics.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
My first two 50s were SS/Invulnerability (diff servers). My main for the last year has been a tricked out I/O'd SS/Will. One invul has a couple I/Os, the other is all SO. They both feel much tougher than the tricked out Will. To be clear a claw/will, or SS/will will not be the brute that can take the most hurt, not and still be standing.
As I said before, the Dark/Invul will be the strongest brute aside from the stone, which is only strong 38+. But the dark attack set is not for everyone. This dark/invul pairing is strong from 1-50.
Dark/Dark can be incredibly strong, but needs a ton of I/Os to make it so. I mean a lot of cash, done just right. And then it still has the Dark attack set's strangeness, and in addition the armor set is also a little funky. Again, only good I/O'd, which means this brute will mature very late game.
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I concur: Once you get Siphon Life frankenslotted, and Invincibility/Temp Inv/Uny setted out, and all the passives, Invuln feels...Invulnerable. Especially if you slather on IO bonuses. The heal from Siphon Life seems small, but coupled with the defenses of Invuln it is remarkably effective.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
As I said before, the Dark/Invul will be the strongest brute aside from the stone, which is only strong 38+. But the dark attack set is not for everyone. This dark/invul pairing is strong from 1-50.
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That said, the lack of AOE in dark really can be offputting. I think a better combo is claws/inv, especially since brutes now get access to the very excellent body pool. Superior conditioning and physical perfection are INCREDIBLE for invuln brutes. Claws brings excellent single target and AOE. The core powers are focus, followup, and spin, with a lowby filler attack. Eviscerate is also nice if you plan to spend a lot of time in crowds.
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Until psi damage or end drain comes along. Being invulnerable is overrated. Roll Dark Armor and be immortal.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
I concur: Once you get Siphon Life frankenslotted, and Invincibility/Temp Inv/Uny setted out, and all the passives, Invuln feels...Invulnerable.
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By the way, OP, great song.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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True, but if the player in question wants something that feels strong out of the box, Dark wouldn't be to their taste.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Until psi damage or end drain comes along. Being invulnerable is overrated. Roll Dark Armor and be immortal.
By the way, OP, great song. |
Granted, I loved my Dark Armor all the way to 50 but it wasn't a straight shot to glory.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Hm, so would SS/Invul be more to my taste than Dark/Invul? I had a SS/WP once already.
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DA has a few issues with taking burst damage from stuff like AV's. Yes, it has Psi resists, but people often forget that Dull Pain is essentially the equivalent of 40% Psi resists. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Until psi damage or end drain comes along. Being invulnerable is overrated. Roll Dark Armor and be immortal.
By the way, OP, great song. |
And Inv has End Drain resist these days. Not a ton, but still some. Inv's lower end costs compared to DA's end drain resist essentially cancel each other out.
Overall, for toughness and survability, here is where I would put the sets...
1. Stone. Easily the toughest of all sets, but sacrifices ALOT to get there, and is ugly as hell.
2. Inv. My personal favorite. Really starts shining when you invest in IO's, and becomes next to unkillable.
3. WP. The easiest set to level, but is *extremely* susceptible to regen debuffs and high burst damage.
4. DA. Weak to burst damage, but fantastic against swarms of minions. Best self rez in case things get really dicey.
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Originally Posted by The_Overlord
Hm, so would SS/Invul be more to my taste than Dark/Invul? I had a SS/WP once already.
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If you want strong out of the box attack chain, simple, straightforward, powerful, SS is it. Dark attacks are harder to use, the strong ones come in later. Dark does have a heal (a good one) in its attack chain, and a End replacement tool in its attack chain. However, since you can now take Blueside extra fitness pool at 41+ (Physical Perfection) this is less of an issue than it used to be for SS/Invul brutes, who can suffer end swings, these kill Fury, bad for brute, less of a problem now.
I'm currently running a Stone/Invul and he can take a beating. Fault takes care of anything that may actually hurt me, and all my knock up/down keeps everything flopping around.
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Not even close. Inv has 25% end drain resist compared to DA's 86.5% (Disclaimer: I'm going by tanker numbers). |
Originally Posted by Candlestick
And Inv has End Drain resist these days. Not a ton, but still some. Inv's lower end costs compared to DA's end drain resist essentially cancel each other out.
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DA can basically ignore end drain and recovery debuffs. In a sea of Mu or even sappers, my blue bar doesn't flinch. A friend of mine and I ran through a heavy end drain group in AE, him on his WP tank. Even with Quick Recovery and Stamina boosting his recovery, the lower cost of his toggles, he bottomed out fast, even through Strength of Will's recovery boost.
Elec is even better on this front. Elec armor is completely immune to end drain and recovery debuffs. That's not even mentioning Power Sink.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Dark Armor is tightly written, and wisely to resist end drain. That set has a HUGE number of toggles. For full damage mitigation you need to run all, or almost all of them. That is why it is almost essential to pair it with Dark Melee, to have the End restoration power available.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Not even close. Inv has 25% end drain resist compared to DA's 86.5% (Disclaimer: I'm going by tanker numbers).
DA can basically ignore end drain and recovery debuffs. In a sea of Mu or even sappers, my blue bar doesn't flinch. A friend of mine and I ran through a heavy end drain group in AE, him on his WP tank. Even with Quick Recovery and Stamina boosting his recovery, the lower cost of his toggles, he bottomed out fast, even through Strength of Will's recovery boost. Elec is even better on this front. Elec armor is completely immune to end drain and recovery debuffs. That's not even mentioning Power Sink. |
Brute: Dark Armor: Murky Cloud = 69.2% +res to end drain.
Not quite as good as a Tanker gets. The Tanker's res to end drain reaches levels where you truely "won't" hardly notice any drain at all, whearas a Brute's res is actually quite a bit lower...in perspective. Don't forget, that DA still has a couple of end sucking toggles that it should be running, so I can totally see where the end drain protection difference between DA and Invln "could", in effect, sorta cancel eachother out. However, I do think DA would have the better protection, even if only slightly, against it even with all things considered.
Your buddy, on his WP Tank, has zero endurance protection, so of course he's gonna flatline his bluebar fast, since most forms of -end drain/-recov will be much more than any +endrecov that you'll ever generate solo. It's proven that it actually takes "resistance" to -recov to effectively stop it, or even slow it down.
Especially if you get into a situation where you did not know you would be fighting end drainers, or even if you knew, but the mish was way long, any brute without resistance to that is gonna be hobbled. Unfortunately for dark armor, almost any end drain is too much, because of all the power the build burns thru with toggles. Its a lovely set, but very hard to get good with.
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Yeah, the thing about Invuln though is that Invincibility makes it more likely those endurance drains will miss you. WP has some decent defense too, but it's harder to get WP up to sky-high numbers when the fit hits the shan.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Not even close. Inv has 25% end drain resist compared to DA's 86.5% (Disclaimer: I'm going by tanker numbers).
DA can basically ignore end drain and recovery debuffs. In a sea of Mu or even sappers, my blue bar doesn't flinch. A friend of mine and I ran through a heavy end drain group in AE, him on his WP tank. Even with Quick Recovery and Stamina boosting his recovery, the lower cost of his toggles, he bottomed out fast, even through Strength of Will's recovery boost. Elec is even better on this front. Elec armor is completely immune to end drain and recovery debuffs. That's not even mentioning Power Sink. |
Doesn't mean Invulnerability isn't still susceptible to end drain -- and I definitely agree with you that extra recovery (or, as in this case, less endurance use) is analogous to drain resistance -- but Invuln is generally a little better off against Sappers than WP is.
DA is better still at resisting end drains, but it has its own issues. DA is not quite as user-friendly to play out of the box.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Now this is something I cannot argue with.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
DA is not quite as user-friendly to play out of the box.
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I'll admit, I really can't comment too accurately when it comes to DA brutes until I've made one, especially considering that I don't have any brutes at all. I'm working on that though, I'm doing a "tour de force" of Dark Armor right now. I've got a stalker I'm building up and a brute in the costume creator.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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I agree with this assessment. However, if you have enough money to blow on IOs and get to the S/L defense softcap, the list changes from 'which is most durable', to 'which is cheapest'.|
Originally Posted by Candlestick
DA has a few issues with taking burst damage from stuff like AV's. Yes, it has Psi resists, but people often forget that Dull Pain is essentially the equivalent of 40% Psi resists.
And Inv has End Drain resist these days. Not a ton, but still some. Inv's lower end costs compared to DA's end drain resist essentially cancel each other out. Overall, for toughness and survability, here is where I would put the sets... 1. Stone. Easily the toughest of all sets, but sacrifices ALOT to get there, and is ugly as hell. 2. Inv. My personal favorite. Really starts shining when you invest in IO's, and becomes next to unkillable. 3. WP. The easiest set to level, but is *extremely* susceptible to regen debuffs and high burst damage. 4. DA. Weak to burst damage, but fantastic against swarms of minions. Best self rez in case things get really dicey. |
Invuln and Stone don't require much. In-built defensive toggles and if you decide to dip into Weave, you can hit the 45% mark with only one or two Kinetic Combat sets.
Invuln has pretty decent debuff resists, but nothing spectacular. Most of it is found in the passive resist powers. Unstoppable will, for a time, make you feel like a God. However, I could never play an invuln brute, because I always found it to be better on a tanker (my opinion, pinch of salt). As a side note, I have an Inv/EM tanker at 50 (my 3rd 50).
Stone also has pretty good debuff resists. Defense debuff from Rock Armor and Crystal Armor (I think), and END drain from Rooted. Minerals gives you Psi defense and +perception (nifty against Arachnos). If I were to create a Stone Armor brute, I would build him to work without Granite. Pump up the defense numbers to soft-cap, get enough runspeed bonuses to negate Rooted's penalty and use Granite only as an 'oh-snap' toggle. IT might be easy to negate Granite's movespeed penalty, but you still can't jump or hover, you suffer a 65% recharge penalty (which is *really* expensive to negate) and a 30% damage penalty (mostly negated by Fury). On a side note, I have a Stone/SS tanker at 50 (my first), building towards the non-Granite playstyle.
WP will require 5 Kinetic Combat sets. I have a DB/WP brute at 47, created on GR launch. I have 4 Kinetic Combat sets, Weave and CJ. I basically stopped dying at around level 30, even when I'm at aggro-cap and have two elite bosses pounding on me (part of it is soft-mitigation from DB, though). With enough defense (I found 30% to be the majic number), your regen will keep you alive through seemingly impossible situations. You are, however, susceptible to debuffs that go through your defense (WP has negligible debuff resists). It does, however, have good psi defense and psi resists, along with +perception (again, nifty against Arachnos).
DA I don't have much experience with, although you can find many supporters on the forums. It has a pretty comprehensive list of non-damage resistances, which is always nice. I'll have to let someone else talk about DA.
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Don't be fooled by this post. This person has probably not been swarmed by psionic-wielding Arachnos or had their defenses debuffed by Paragon Awakened groups. A whole 15% defense isn't going to make you feel tough against psionic damage and Invulnerability lacks significant defense debuff resistance.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
My 40 Elec/Invul Brute begs to differ. I don't feel squishy on him. Ever. With Combat Jumping and the 3% Global Defense IO I never die. Literally, I never die. Attacks just fly around me and anything that gets through is softened by my internal resistances. Invul is a set that requires every power taken to be fully effective, but it's totally worth it (especially with a primary that allows a skip power, like Hand Clap or Repulsing Torrent or Stun).
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Invulnerability does combine high resistance with decent defenses. It does not require IOs to "feel" invulnerable against most enemies. It does have weaknesses, though. With far less than 50% resistance against non S/L damage types, the hits that get through your defenses are going to hurt. When you have 16 enemies beating on you, those hits that get through will come far more often and may happen all at once. Unstoppable may save you in dire situations, but don't rely on it too much.
Pick any defensive set and most people on these forums can point out the weaknesses. The only way to cover those up is through IO sets, which may not cover them up completely. Teaming is really the best way to overcome your weaknesses in your build.
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Stone/Inv is my main brute, and yeah, he is damn near unkillable to anything short of a Psi AV.
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Originally Posted by Silver_Tooth
I'm currently running a Stone/Invul and he can take a beating. Fault takes care of anything that may actually hurt me, and all my knock up/down keeps everything flopping around.
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Lol, and don't be fooled by THIS ^ Post.|
Originally Posted by Syntax42
Don't be fooled by this post. This person has probably not been swarmed by psionic-wielding Arachnos or had their defenses debuffed by Paragon Awakened groups. A whole 15% defense isn't going to make you feel tough against psionic damage and Invulnerability lacks significant defense debuff resistance.
Invulnerability does combine high resistance with decent defenses. It does not require IOs to "feel" invulnerable against most enemies. It does have weaknesses, though. With far less than 50% resistance against non S/L damage types, the hits that get through your defenses are going to hurt. When you have 16 enemies beating on you, those hits that get through will come far more often and may happen all at once. Unstoppable may save you in dire situations, but don't rely on it too much. Pick any defensive set and most people on these forums can point out the weaknesses. The only way to cover those up is through IO sets, which may not cover them up completely. Teaming is really the best way to overcome your weaknesses in your build. |
Invln has far MORE than 50% +resistance against S/L damage types, not far less. With their resists actually slotted, they have almost 54% +res to those two most common damage types, S/L. So when he says "far less" than 50%....he's dead wrong. Furthermore, any Invln who DOESN'T take Tough and yes, even Weave, shouldn't be playing Invln in the first place. Re-roll or choose a different secondary, because you're not playing Invln to it's strengths properly. Stacked with Tough, Invln has over 71% +res to S/L damage, which is definitely nothing to scoff at. Taking weave will grant you next to 6% more +defense to stack with Invince, as well as give you at least "some" defense vs. psi damage.
Invln also comes with a VERY hefty HP boosting power with Dull Pain....this massive HP boost can literally count as another huge boost of "+res" and, in effect, grant you the "+res to psi" which Invln indeed lacks.
Fully IO'd out, Invln is a true monster of mitigation. Perma-DP+HP-Accos+Physical Perfection+fully-slotted-Health+Invln resists/defenses+FightingPool is no joke, and that doesn't even take into account the real "oh-no!" power of Unstoppable or using Darkest Night....Invln is beast-mode after IO's, and the only runner up is about 100 yards behind it. Stone is the only other one that really beats Invln in survivability, but there are huge trade-off's for going stone, so with those in mind, I do feel that Invln gets the overall edge in survivability.
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You mis-read the post, DM. He wrote non-S/L.
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Originally Posted by DarkMaster
Lol, and don't be fooled by THIS ^ Post.
Invln has far MORE than 50% +resistance against S/L damage types, not far less. |
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I have a hard time thinking of a HP buff in that way just because it is only a HP buff. Sure, they have to do 40% more damage to kill off your health bar, but when you get healed, your HP total usually has nothing to do with how much more damage you can take. Consider that the AoE heal on emapth/pain heals for around 250 at level 50. You could have 1000 out of 2000 HP when you get healed, or 1000 out of 2800 HP when you get healed. Either way, you will die when you take 1250 more damage.|
Originally Posted by DarkMaster
Invln also comes with a VERY hefty HP boosting power with Dull Pain....this massive HP boost can literally count as another huge boost of "+res" and, in effect, grant you the "+res to psi" which Invln indeed lacks.
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True resistance gives you more time to regenerate or heal your hit points, not just give the enemy more time to kill you. I'm not saying the extra HP is not useful. It just doesn't quite count as resistance in the way you make it sound like. Swarms of Arachnos are still going to kill you even if it takes them four more hits from Psi damage.
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| Stone is the only other one that really beats Invln in survivability, but there are huge trade-off's for going stone, so with those in mind, I do feel that Invln gets the overall edge in survivability. |
I know it's more of a Tanker specialty than a Brute specialty, but Brutes are far closer to meeting my "Can I play Disturbed's Indestructible while I play this character?" requirements.
Basically, I want to know which set can or feels like it can take the most hurt. I'm at this point fairly certain I want to go Dark/Invul, but are there any better sets for feeling like I can take anything?
Sorry if this is a stupid question.