The BEST Single Target Damage?

I was under the impression that the resistance could not go negative. Meaning that if your target has 20% resistance, then a 20% resistance debuff will do the same as a 30%, 40% or 258,786% resistance debuff.

Therefore, in your example. Let us say the target has 20% resistance.

i) 156
ii) 172
iii) 195

You would cap out at 195, no matter how high you stacked debuffs, but you could always pack more damage on...

Please correct me if my understanding is wrong.

Troller's DPS against Pylon is pretty biased because 1. Pylon is perma-immb which means Troller always get Containment 2. all pets attack the same target and Phantom won't die.

In reality, an AV is not going to be perma held. Perma immb may be possible but Illusion has no immb (unless getting it from patron?) and all your pets may not focus on the same target during regular fights.

Using pet's DPS in Crab/Bane also kinda weird because those pets will not survive long against Pylon. In fact, even with double maneuver, my Reinforcement still die within 20s.

I am not saying Troller and Bane/Crab don't have good DPS but that 400 dps is pretty exaggerated.

Resistance debuffs can go negative. They cap at -400%. Resistance debuffs are very potent.

In addition to what StatoNexus said (resistance can go into the negitives) There's also the fact that resistance is resistance to resistance debuffs, so therefore in your example, a 20% resistance debuff vs something with 20% resistance would only debuff it by 16%, down to 4% res, 30% res debuff would debuff it by 24%, down to -4%, et cetera. Also, negitive resistance makes the debuff stronger, so it something has -10% res, than a 20% resistance debuff it's would debuff resistance by 22%. so it'd then have -32% res.
I am however unsure res debuffs are increased/decreased based on the resistance checks of the damage type they check against (ie, a sonic attack only checking smash and energy to see if it's increased/decreased) or if every resistance is checked individualy (never have had time to check the calculations mid battle).

And sorry about the wall o' text.

Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler That...was a Herocon 09 exclusive easter egg. The powerset will not have doves associated with it. Namely because you guys would want to color tint the damn doves, or make them hawks/ravens/flying sharks/etc and that's just a headache I do...not...want...to deal with.

Right on the money.


Also, the damage results should be taken with a grain of salt and used as food for "thought." They should not be taken as law. In every situation where someone has reached the "top-10" of the damage charts, they are ALL under complete and total OPTIMUM conditions. That's Shield Defense with a fully saturated AAO (plus mobs that can't hurt him), or Dark Melee with a fully saturated Soul Drain 100% of the time, people using recovery serums or outside recovery boosters for endurance (most dps'rs will admit that without those they couldn't sustain their attack chains for more than a dozen seconds or so), perma Immobs/Mez'ing, perfected (expensive) IO slotting, and a good/perfect run where they happend to not take more damage than they could survive (which doesn't always happen in a basic/general scenario). These damage charts are very useful to see what "IS" achievable with a perfect build, in the perfect settings, with the perfect conditions, with the perfect run, but it's by no means gospel and should only be used to help you determine what you might want out of a set.


In fact, some of the sets which make the top 10 or 15 don't really have that great of "overall" dps without all of these conditions in place. Which means you might build one, not have the money to spend a fortune on it, run on into a TF with a basic pick-up group, and be sorely dissapointed with your results...


I liken these damage comparisons to a Drag Race Car. Under "OPTIMAL" conditions, that Drag Racer is going to severly beat just about any car down a perfect stretch of flat open road, but good luck trying to park it, drive it down a road with curves, or hit corners on it. In comparison that new Corvette Stingray isn't going to match the Dragsters zero to 100 speed, but is going to be much better as an everyday driver that can park, handle curves, and can still kick MUCH rear in speed if it ever needs to against 90% of what you'll ever actually face on the road


Think of it that way.


Also, when asking for single target damage, I think that myself and others are sometimes reffering to: "who can put out the most single target damage in about 30-45 seconds during 'average' conditions" and not really "who can put out the most single target damage over a time period extending over 5-10 minutes". Because for most of what we do in this game, the "30 seconds" worth of major damage output is much more important than what is possible to achieve over a ten to fifteen minute period. Even when on a team that is fighting an AV, in most cases, it isn't going to take your team more than 4 minutes to defeat that single AV. For most, that 30-40 seconds worth of gratification, which can happen with every fight, is alot more gratification than a tedious 10-15 minute slow kill which only happens once-in-a-blue-moon lol. Furthermore, you will rarely find a time where you'll find 6 people that wanna "sit-out" for 5 to 10 minutes or more and watch you take the empathy for recovery aura and slowly solo that AV...just not gonna happen in most cases. Even if they did let you do that just to see if you could, it would only ever happen once lol, they don't wanna watch that tediousness a second time


Anyways, it's damage output between "30-40 seconds under normal conditions" is usually what I refer to when talking "most damage".

First, I gave you the wrong chain Swap the position of Venomnade and Shatter armor; there is a bit more redraw but the debuffs should work out better. Second, I calculated the redraw as less than you are, as I calc'ed the chain to be a bit above 19 seconds. Third, my bane (just the bane, no pets) puts out about 141 "raw" dps doing that chain, and ~232 "inflicted," I believe (old calcs).

You're right on about how difficult it is to calculate the pet DPS. Our pet calculations are very different, which is causing the major disparity (and do you have the soulbound proc in any of those pets?). I compared calcs with Frosticus a long time ago, and since he got almost exactly the same numbers as I did, I just went with it. There is no way that I know of, outside of hundreds of sample runs in game, to determine pet DPS accurately, and I don't have the patience to do those sample runs. Your crab calcs make me want to recheck some old crab builds though

Part of the reason I've scrapped the bane (and crab) is that keeping the pets alive long enough against a pylon is just a ridiculous pain. The controller should have no problem with that at all.

Against a pylon, the pets will die. Against a normal AV, they should not. No one has clocked a bane at that dps (as far as I know) against a pylon for this reason, but assuming it is capable of 400 dps for the rest of the game is valid, and actually less artificial than a pylon run.

And the pylon test is also a measure of survivablity against a hard target, as well as for DPS. Its about seeing how much damage you could do, while making sure you don't die.

If we wanted a pure DPS test, someone else could tank the Pylon at range with taunts.

I'm not sure what you mean. The bane should not die in that scenario with softcapped defenses. Survivability is a non issue. The pets die due to artificially high aoe damage that does nothing more than tickle the bane. Against almost any other AV type opponent, the pets should be fine (cept maybe crab's spiderlings, which is why I don't give them much credit in dps calcs) and so would the bane, making the high dps actually more normal.

Edit: What Jib said about the containment thing is true, but the amount of damage actually coming from the controllers personal attacks is relatively small so it doesn't skew the dps that much. I consider -regen more of an artificial component than the false containment.

Interesting. I will need to give this a try.

There are many builds that people would like to try with the pylong test but don't because it would take too much work to build for survivability while maintaining as much dps as possible OR you have to build for survivability while building for DPS (namely recharge). If builds could ignore survivability, like getting to the softcap while adding some way to regen damage taken from the pylon, while outputting dps.

Which is why you dont see certain sets in the pylon tests, like Fire Armor, especially with the new changes, because people haven't made a build that can survive it while outputting max dps.

The same could be said for Banes, most players haven't tried a pet based build that can maintain max dps with survivability.

IE. Also softcapped defenses is actually NOT just what you need to survive a pylon, you cannot reliability survive with just defense, you need some way to mitigate the damage that you will end up taking, either by having a heal or building for regen along with defense and recharge. Just softcapped scrappers can and have died during a pylon test due to RNG, especially if you want to do the test constantly, and not just that one time when you didn't get screwed over by RNG.

Thank you.
btw, the formula is
Ro+Rd-(RoRd/100)=R

Ro is original res
Rd is res debuff
R is resultant res.

Therefore base 20 hit with a -30 debuff would get you 20-30-(20x-30/100)=-4
Hitting again would be -4-30-(-4x-30/100)=-35.2
If you get the third debuff, -35.2-30-(-35.2x-30/100)=-75.76


I'm going to have to look into a fire/cold/mace corrupter...

The -regen is the equivalent of adding 127.8125 dps... That is pretty big, but v AVs it is actually bigger. I don't see how that is more artificial than -res debuffs. That is why it is called equivalent DPS or one of a number of other terms...

It just feels more artificial to me than -res. Completely subjective. I could say (and people have) that the -res is artificial too, but that doesn't bother me.

What's funny about this is I changed my NW's build around a few times to tackle a pylon and the best I've been able to achiev is 9:45 (@ 195 DPS give or take). I checked a few weeks later and a crab spider posted as putting out 270 dps vs a pylon (that's what, 5 minutes?).

I questioned this on the pylon thread and asked how he was able to pull this off because 1) crabs have less than stellar single target damage and 2) I've experience firsthand on my bane that the 2 pets croak after the second pylon AE.

His reponse to my inquiry was "My crab spider build is far from standard. I run Double Assault, Double Maneuvers and Darkest Night with a single target chain of Single Shot>Gloom" so I assumed he had a way of keeping his pets alive.

But I really don't see how this is possible... mine ran right up to the pylon to melee it and then croaked on two attempts. So is there a way to keep the pets out of the AE or is he just BSing everyone?

I saw that too, and pretty sure he's not bsing. He's using a ranged chain, so he can keep distance between himself and the pets so they don't get all the splash damage.

Oh, and the above statement about softcapping not being enough: I agree, but banes have more than softcapping so I don't think that's valid in this case. They have some +hp and regen as well as some resistance. Mine has the same defense as my /shield scrapper, lower hp/regen, but higher s/l resistance. It is not quite the same as, say, an /sr which is completely reliant on the RNG outside of Aid Self. (DDR is another story, but that's irrelevant for a pylon).