I don't anticipate any fix soon. No word from on high, then again word from on high has been... lacking lately.
The scuttlebutt is that they had to break the AI in order for Demons to even be usuable. Since Demons were such a big part of GR they made the choice to do it.
I'd hope it was only a temporary 'fix' and they are hard at work repairing the code but that's just me being optimistic.
We're more than likely stuck with the new behavior.
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Its kinda of messed up how they cripple all pets just to make a minor change. I remember how they gutted pet recharge just because they didnt want lightning storm to do good damage eventhough it was an underperforming power.
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It wasn't just Lightning Storm - there were a few other pets that could abuse the heck out of that too (Gun Drone comes to mind)... but the point is still valid.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Its kinda of messed up how they cripple all pets just to make a minor change. I remember how they gutted pet recharge just because they didnt want lightning storm to do good damage eventhough it was an underperforming power.
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-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
Well it makes range-centric pets close to unplayable. Which means I'm shelving my mercs, bots and thug MMs until they fix it.
Hooray for ninjas, necros and demons I suppose. This still seems like a pretty silly thing to let slip through the cracks.
I often wonder how that whole system works. The demons will shoot their ranged attacks, then run in to melee. cool, they're supposed to. But now all pets act like that. So why does it take effect to all pets like that, sort of an 'all pets or nothing' thing?
maybe its too hard to have multiple pet AIs running on a server. Afaik both pets and npcs share the 1 AI, having more might cause some issues?
My guess is they've already tried this... or maybe it was a shortcut in the coding?
http://www.scene-and-heard.com/cov/covsig.jpg
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If that's the case then something else needs to be done. Even if it means making all pets more melee centric so that their behaviour makes sense.|
Originally Posted by Scene_EU
maybe its too hard to have multiple pet AIs running on a server. Afaik both pets and npcs share the 1 AI, having more might cause some issues?
My guess is they've already tried this... or maybe it was a shortcut in the coding? |
In fact, it doesn't even make sense for demons on the whole. The Lt demon that casts the fire shield only has ranged attacks with the first upgrade: Fireblast and Fire Breath. Yet he still runs into melee the first chance he gets.
Maybe its time to invest in some server hardware to handle pet AI. At the very least, I'd like to see pets be given a toggleable melee/ranged stance option. Probably just wishful thinking on my part.
I started to play a merc/dark mm recently she is at lvl22 now,I noticed the pets running into melee too, but I didn't know that that was bjorked. I changed the medics settings to defensive, and put the spec ops on agressive hoping that might keep things contained. Is that ok? I really have no idea how to play a mm and am just winging it.
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In the past, a pet would occasionally run into melee even if it was a ranged-focused type. Every now and then a bot or merc would run up to their targeted foe. Ironically, pets would tend to stay at range even if their majority of attacks were melee. |
Originally Posted by Early Girl
I started to play a merc/dark mm recently she is at lvl22 now,I noticed the pets running into melee too, but I didn't know that that was bjorked. I changed the medics settings to defensive, and put the spec ops on agressive hoping that might keep things contained. Is that ok? I really have no idea how to play a mm and am just winging it.
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This totally ticked off ninja masterminds who would have to manually move their Jounin and Genin close to an enemy group to get them to use their melee attacks. It also affected necro MMs because the Grave Knights would tend to not use their more powerful sword attacks.
It was no sweat for mercs, bots and thugs(except for the Bruiser) because at range was where you wanted those pets to stay.
What is happening now is that regardless of the type of pet(and consequently type of NPC) involved, everyone throws a ranged attack or 2 and then rushes to melee distance of the enemy if it isn't defeated after their ranged attacks are used.
There has always been some type of problem with pets not 'knowing' where they should position themselves in combat, but now we have moved from one extreme to another. With this one being arguably worse because pets will try to keep in melee range of fleeing enemies as well as ones who are standing to fight and they will aggro other spawns by doing so.
To answer your question though, you're not doing it 'wrong'. I have used a similar setup for my MMs. You will notice though, that your spec ops actually are useful in melee because they can use their gun butt attack to stun enemies.
I see, thanks for your reply. I am leafing through the guides trying to come up with a good pet command guide or info on macros and binds, like I said I don't even really know how or why to use macros and binds or how to apply them to my keyboard.
It seems really overwhelming to consider "playing" each one of my pets and then myself too--( Can you direct each pet individually to specifically target what you want?? )
-- half the time I am trying to heal them and keep them alive rather than vice versa/ a lot of the guides are about how to slot, but i don't need that ...I can figure that out on my own-- (and have already started slotting her for set bonuses) but as for "mastering" my pets better... 
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Take what I'm about to say within proper context because I'm sure that as soon as I say it, someone is going to post in this thread that I'm crazy for saying it.|
Originally Posted by Early Girl
I see, thanks for your reply. I am leafing through the guides trying to come up with a good pet command guide or info on macros and binds, like I said I don't even really know how or why to use macros and binds or how to apply them to my keyboard.
It seems really overwhelming to consider "playing" each one of my pets and then myself too--( Can you direct each pet individually to specifically target what you want?? ) -- half the time I am trying to heal them and keep them alive rather than vice versa/ a lot of the guides are about how to slot, but i don't need that ...I can figure that out on my own-- (and have already started slotting her for set bonuses) but as for "mastering" my pets better... |
I don't personally use macros and binds for my MMs. Now I'm not saying that they aren't useful, but I've never really needed them.
I first suggest that you switch your pet command command window from simple to advanced. This gives you the greatest control over your pets both individually and as groups according to their type.
You can set the behaviours of groups or individuals as you see fit and you also have the ability to command them as a whole unit.
I personally found that experimentation was the best way to learn my MM skills. Each MM type is very different so adjusting your playstyle to suit your pets' powers will be necessary.
I think you'll find mercs to be one of the most straightforward types. They are pretty much range-focused and deal damage in the same way across the board (I kinda wish the medic had an assault shotgun instead of the usual rifle but meh).
I assume you know how bodyguard works? Its something to always keep in mind.
Maybe it's dev way of "balancing" pets. Range pets no longer have more "defense" from standing far. :P
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Please don't put ideas in the devs' heads... |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Maybe it's dev way of "balancing" pets. Range pets no longer have more "defense" from standing far. :P
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As stated before, it's not like they ever come to the MM forum.
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Originally Posted by Slashman
Please don't put ideas in the devs' heads...
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Okay, first, phewf! *wipes forehead* it's mostly all I've ever heard mm players talk about! I thot it was a mandatory thing, or you weren't a good mm player.|
Originally Posted by Slashman
Take what I'm about to say within proper context because I'm sure that as soon as I say it, someone is going to post in this thread that I'm crazy for saying it.
I don't personally use macros and binds for my MMs. Now I'm not saying that they aren't useful, but I've never really needed them. I first suggest that you switch your pet command command window from simple to advanced. This gives you the greatest control over your pets both individually and as groups according to their type. You can set the behaviours of groups or individuals as you see fit and you also have the ability to command them as a whole unit. I personally found that experimentation was the best way to learn my MM skills. Each MM type is very different so adjusting your playstyle to suit your pets' powers will be necessary. I think you'll find mercs to be one of the most straightforward types. They are pretty much range-focused and deal damage in the same way across the board (I kinda wish the medic had an assault shotgun instead of the usual rifle but meh). I assume you know how bodyguard works? Its something to always keep in mind. |
second, is that the arrow that extends their menu? same as where I changed their stance from defensive to aggressive?
Yep, they seemed the most solid for a beginner to start out on (imo) and is bodyguard the "heel or follow" toggles? Or have I completely missed something?
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
As stated before, it's not like they ever come to the MM forum.
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Incendiary Swarm Missile every 5 seconds with the FF proc comes to mind... Assault Bot was a beast.
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Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
It wasn't just Lightning Storm - there were a few other pets that could abuse the heck out of that too (Gun Drone comes to mind)... but the point is still valid.
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That only sucked because people are too damn lazy to play a pet class with pet controls. You know what sucks? Not having the ability to leave the Genin at range anymore. It's easy to use a Goto command to put them in melee........they stay in melee once in melee. What they don't do is stay at range if you put them at range. |
Originally Posted by Slashman
This totally ticked off ninja masterminds who would have to manually move their Jounin and Genin close to an enemy group to get them to use their melee attacks. It also affected necro MMs because the Grave Knights would tend to not use their more powerful sword attacks.
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The shurikens, especially once you can upgrade them to explosive, do underrated damage. The fact they won't stay back in range to use them as well anymore isn't a big deal.......nothing lives that long against Ninjas, anyhow.......but this is long perceived to be beneficial to melee users when it is not. Melee pet users lost control with this problem, just like everyone else.
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At the top of the pet window there is an options menu. Click it and a small window comes up. It will give the option to switch to simple mode or advanced depending on which one you're currently in. The arrow that extends the menu basically gives you details on buffs/powers affecting them.|
Originally Posted by Early Girl
Okay, first, phewf! *wipes forehead* it's mostly all I've ever heard mm players talk about! I thot it was a mandatory thing, or you weren't a good mm player.
second, is that the arrow that extends their menu? same as where I changed their stance from defensive to aggressive? |
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...and is bodyguard the "heel or follow" toggles? Or have I completely missed something?
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Originally Posted by brophog02
That only sucked because people are too damn lazy to play a pet class with pet controls. You know what sucks? Not having the ability to leave the Genin at range anymore. It's easy to use a Goto command to put them in melee........they stay in melee once in melee. What they don't do is stay at range if you put them at range.
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This explains the retardedness oozing out of my Bots/Dark MM. I noticed a change in behavior when Demons first became available (to GR pre-payers, that is) and now I know why. I've noticed that even the Protector Bots (who have no melee whatsoever) will even dash into the melee frenzy and get summarily demolished because they're the squishiest of the bunch. (Less defense on each Protector because all of the other robots get Force Shield*2, where they only get *1 each.) Personally, while I know it probably won't happen, I would like to see two different behavior AI code sets; one for melee and one for ranged, assuming the game engine will allow it.
It seems to me the game engine would allow AI that prefers melee and AI that prefers ranged.
Don't we have different enemies that exhibit preferences for each?
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Yes. |
Originally Posted by ioshie
It seems to me the game engine would allow AI that prefers melee and AI that prefers ranged.
Don't we have different enemies that exhibit preferences for each? |
We even have Snipers, that DO NOT move, unless forced to.
This isn't a limitation of the engine, it's a limitation that I think was accidentally built into the Mastermind system. The original designers didn't actually think about how the AI for different kinds of enemies are, you now, different.
Almost all Mastermind Pet-Control issues could be solved by having the ability to say "Pet A prefers Melee, Pet B prefers Ranged."
Given that these issues have existed since Masterminds were introduced, and yet a having 2 AI types system hasn't been implemented... I'm guessing that it would take a monumental amount of effort to implement that, up to maybe rewriting the entire AT to do so. That's the only reason I can think of that such an obvious solution hasn't been taken.
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Ahh, thanks Slashman.
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If memory serves, Snipers are perma-immobilised (try throwing a Power Analyzer on them) which physically prevents them from moving on their own - it's not that they've actually been given any special AI in particular over other ranged critters. |
Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
Yes.
We even have Snipers, that DO NOT move, unless forced to. |
I made a suggestion that this might be a good idea to propagate this type of immobilisation to the Mastermind "STAY" pet command a few threads down from this one.
Sadly given the relative general lack of Dev contact lately it's rather unlikely that any of these threads'll get a look in... even without taking into account that the MM board in particular never really has been a hive of redname activity. I suspect it's still all-systems-go for Closed Beta, which is rather sad, because it seems we're going from beta to beta these days without seeing any of the normal daily chatting-and-updates that the Devs here've been so good with in the past...
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Oh, I thought of another npc that behaves like I want my robots to behave: Fallen Gunners/Buckshot from the Hellions. They seem to be perfectly happy staying at range unless LoS is broken.
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Originally Posted by Maelwys
If memory serves, Snipers are perma-immobilised (try throwing a Power Analyzer on them) which physically prevents them from moving on their own - it's not that they've actually been given any special AI in particular over other ranged critters.
I made a suggestion that this might be a good idea to propagate this type of immobilisation to the Mastermind "STAY" pet command a few threads down from this one. Sadly given the relative general lack of Dev contact lately it's rather unlikely that any of these threads'll get a look in... even without taking into account that the MM board in particular never really has been a hive of redname activity. I suspect it's still all-systems-go for Closed Beta, which is rather sad, because it seems we're going from beta to beta these days without seeing any of the normal daily chatting-and-updates that the Devs here've been so good with in the past... |
Has there been any official word at all about mob and pet behaviour with regard to running into melee?
I fired up my mercs/traps MM just now and I was angry as hell within the first 5 minutes of the mission I ran. The pets ALL run into melee range now.
This makes zero sense for range-focused pets. My only consolation was that I was fighting Wyvern. If it was freaks or some other enemy group that excelled in close fighting, I'd have been even more annoyed(if that's even possible).
I'm scared to even try my bots/FF. My ninjas are actually now doing what I've always wanted...this would be funny if it wasn't so messed up.