Going Rogue/Issue 18 - Patch notes for build 1850.201009101722.3T2
By
Aibheil,
Posted on: 2010-09-28 09:18 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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I disagree. I think its better to make people learn to do it without nukes, since that eliminates the "need" for nukes in people's minds. The trial is better and easier to run with coordination once people become familiar. You should get used to failure on new trials. When I20 comes out, there will be a lot of it and it will be because the trial/TF is "too hard".|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
The problem I have with banning nukes is that you are only punishing non-optimal teams and players that may not have many opportunities to get 24 people together. It's just another kick in the junk for those that couldn't get it done before. It also runs the risk of arbitrary changes to specific powers and encounters just to satisfy the whimsy of the devs.
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They are not claiming to be making content just like all the old stuff. They are claiming to be making content that requires IOs, that requires coordination, that almost requires the higher survivability of tanker, and content where failure is going to be likely until you learn how.
Task Forces only require getting at most 8 people who know how. 24 is a harder pool to get (although you should probably be able to get away with less as long your leaders are good communicators), but, in time, enough people will know how that it will become trivial. The time required is not a week and likely not a month, however. If you want to be among the first and the best, you need to join a raid SG. If you want to just join PUG raids, you will likely need to be among those that take awhile to learn and figure out how to coordinate.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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I play exclusively on Guardian. I see a good mix of the obvious server lag and unknown lag. The TF I was talking about I know the one guy getting disconnected was not in the US, but I am not sure which country he was in. He did specifically say though that he never had lag prior to issue 17. The more I think about it my lag actually started getting bad at Issue 17 as well (then got horrible even in the wee hours during GR.Issue 18), so I have to wonder if maybe UM is at least partially responsible. I keep my UM on the lowest settings and my video card is supposed to be able to go much higher, but still . . .
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Originally Posted by Hallowed
Hmm. My SG has people from both coasts and one player in Europe, and, other than one person with a bad internet connection, we don't see disconnects.
I'd say we see the extended 1-5 sec server-side lag spikes once per hour, on average (and it's clear when it happens that it's server-side lag, as it hits everyone regardless of location). Primarily, we are playing on Freedom now, while still occasionally running on our original Guardian/Infinity servers. The lag is certainly more noticeable on Freedom, but given the load, that's to be expected. What server are you on? It might be a server-specific issue. |
Oh... well that might explain it. Guardian has always and I mean from day one been the red-headed step-child of servers. It's always had stupid lag performance issues. It's certainly not as bad now as it used to be, but that server is cursed.
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I've actually wondered this myself many times in the past and I have to say Hallowed, I don't appreciate you reminding me of it. Seriously though, thanks for the feedback.
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Originally Posted by Hallowed
Oh... well that might explain it. Guardian has always and I mean from day one been the red-headed step-child of servers. It's always had stupid lag performance issues. It's certainly not as bad now as it used to be, but that server is cursed.
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You may want to see if you have the some problems on another server. If not, it would point pretty clearly to Guardian. When we started running our villains on Infinity (years ago), we noticed virtually none of the problems that were regularly occurring on Guardian. Also, since I think you're on the East Coast, try one of the E. Coast servers, as you should have better performance.
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Originally Posted by GMan3
I've actually wondered this myself many times in the past and I have to say Hallowed, I don't appreciate you reminding me of it. Seriously though, thanks for the feedback.
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Thanks for the idea, but I don't think that I would be willing to move away from Guardian. Not unless my SG's could be moved over as well, which I doubt. I put way to much energy into those bases to loose them now. Also I live in Hawaii (moved here last year from NC) now and a west coast server is best for me. Well, I guess it is time to really start putting in trouble tickets on a regular basis and try forcing a fix then. Thanks again Hallowed.
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Originally Posted by Hallowed
You may want to see if you have the some problems on another server. If not, it would point pretty clearly to Guardian. When we started running our villains on Infinity (years ago), we noticed virtually none of the problems that were regularly occurring on Guardian. Also, since I think you're on the East Coast, try one of the E. Coast servers, as you should have better performance.
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Not a problem.
I wasn't suggesting a permanent move, rather a limited trial-run to see if the issues you're experiencing are server-specific. That would help in identifying the issue causing the problems.
Good luck.
Hey, can I ask about the STEALTH PATCH NOTE: COSTUME CONTACT IN IMPERIAL CITY?
I mean, really?
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
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Hmm... really? A costume contact in Imperial City?|
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
Hey, can I ask about the STEALTH PATCH NOTE: COSTUME CONTACT IN IMPERIAL CITY?
I mean, really? |
For halloween salvage or...
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Yep for Halloween salvage.
Can't wait for the event to start... I love this holiday!
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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Yep for Halloween salvage.
Can't wait for the event to start... I love this holiday! |
Cool! Thanks, I didn't catch that!
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
I accidentally shot my mouth off correcting someone who was talking about it on the Help Channel. Lucky me, they were nice enough to straighten me out. Apparently, the contact is actually intermittent as well--and when they are gone there is a cloud of fireflies placeholder. Where did I just hear about such a thing...? 
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
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Hahaha!|
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
I accidentally shot my mouth off correcting someone who was talking about it on the Help Channel. Lucky me, they were nice enough to straighten me out. Apparently, the contact is actually intermittent as well--and when they are gone there is a cloud of fireflies placeholder. Where did I just hear about such a thing...?
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Aha! And thus your extra concern over this being left out of the patch notes.
Hmm... Perhaps that NPC was actually a part of that whole accidental leak onto live. Hmmm...
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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I found her. On the SW most island in Imperial City. About 140 yards NE of the Tiberian Bluff marker.
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Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
I accidentally shot my mouth off correcting someone who was talking about it on the Help Channel. Lucky me, they were nice enough to straighten me out. Apparently, the contact is actually intermittent as well--and when they are gone there is a cloud of fireflies placeholder. Where did I just hear about such a thing...?
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Mmm...|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
I'm not entirely certain that failures are factored into the reward calculations; only completions. If that's the case, then only the handful of groups able to pull if off are counting, and they'll more than likely do it quickly.
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The core problem is the dogma the developers use to determine rewards for a given activity, the dogma like all others is simply dumb, its based on time spent doing the activity. Obviously if it took you forever to perform a task, to the feeble mind, it means the task was really difficult and thus should be highly rewarded. To the same feeble mind, if the task was done quickly, obviously, the task was too easy and thus it should not be worth much reward wise.
So if one plays the game, brashly, disorganized, were the team continously breaks up, gets wiped out a lot, expect developers to be pelased and thus be willing to give you high rewards.
But if a team plays the mission with decisive leadership, cohesion, and discipline where the obvious result will be doing the task efficiently, then expect to be solidly punished, and the rewards for success greatly reduced.
Frankly, if a group of players can spend the hours and weeks planning and preparing their characters to be optimal for a particular task, why not let them enjoy the fruit of their success? After all, their characters did not happened to get that good over night, and for the cheap either? Their playing together seamlessly did not just happened either...
I strongly believe, the time metric for rewards needs to go!
Stormy
And what metric do you propose? I can't imagine there is one that is "fair" and would please everyone.
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I suspect you have a less than optimal grasp of the meaning of that word.
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Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
the dogma like all others is simply dumb
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She's on one of the lesser bluffs facing the city--not hard to find at all. I still can't verify the fireflies thing, but the magic booster parts were put to good use for her.
So...is she just wedged in there, or is there some manner of magical backstory. This is Praetoria we're talking about here, people.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
[QUOTE=Thirty-Seven;3241290]And what metric do you propose? I can't imagine there is one that is "fair" and would please everyone.
I suspect you have a less than optimal grasp of the meaning of that word.[/QUO
You have a good question, not sure the need to add insult is needed to give validity to your statement...
There are several ways at looking at how merits can be awarded, with out being time based, after all, it is the final product that matters and not the time it took to accomplish it. For example if you were to tell a painter you pay him by the hour instead by the job, you can reasonably expect the painter to take his time... Consider you go to a hamburger joint, and the price of the burger is based on how long it took to prepare, they guy before you has a shar p cook who gets on it right away, and the other members of the staff prepares the condiments, bunns as the cook fries the meat, in mere minutes the burger is completed, placed in a platter with fries and given to you. When your turn to get the same burger happens, there is a crew shift, and the cook is more interested in hitting on the new cashier, the other staff preparing the condiments are joking and horsing with each other, and eventually your burger is put together and given to you. Do you really think it is appropriate that you should pay twice as much more than the guy in front of you, because it took twice as long for you to get your hamburger? Or conversely, just because the staff worked hard and did it in half the time, they should only be paid half for their work?
So the question to ponder on, is what activities is worth what...
1. Completing a complex mission in a TF: 1 Merit
A complex mission is your normal defeat boss and get some clikies or rescue somebody along the way. These may be the good ole kill all or one that has several objectives along with the defeat boss.
2. Glowie or Ghostable Missions in a TF: 1 Merit per 3 Ghost Missions
Getting clickables is not always easy, some are actually guarded, but then you don't have to clear the map either.
3. Hunts, Patrols and Take something to contact or talk to Somebody: 0 merits, these are unchallenging and are simple time sinks.
4. Defeat Boss Missions in TFs: 1 Merit per 2 Missions
These can be ghosted, yet normally these bosses are in complex rooms and you wind up defeating over half the map anyway. Thus 2 defeat bosses would be roughly the same as one kill all.
5. Ambushes in TFs: 1 Merit per 2 Ambushes experienced
This number could be tweaked, depending onthe nature of the ambush. For instance, if the ambush spawns away from you, thus giving you time to prepare its not worth the same as one that spawns instananeously a top of you. I would suggest for the insta, on your face type ambushes a rate of 2 to 1 to be fair; while those that are defensible perhaps a rate of 4 to 1.
6. Defeating an AV in TF: 1 Merit per AV defeat
TFs or threads with multiple AVS would receive 1 Merit per AV defeated. A merit multiplier for the defeat would be applied when facing multiple AVs at a time, the multiplier is simply the number of Avs confronted at a time. For intance in an ITF, the third mission you square off with both Requiem and Romulus, thus a multiplier of 2, hence that particular mission would be worth 4 merits for the combo Requiem-Romulus, and since it was a complex mission with several generals to take out, its worth 1 more Merit; Also this mission has about 7 ambushes 1 per general and 1 per arch; these ambushes are not quite on your face, yet they are not one you could easily prepare for them either; they are kinda in the middle, so would use 1 merit per 3 ambushes, hence 2 merits due to ambushes. Thus this mission alone is worth 7 merits.
7. If a TF, you may want to give a merit or more based on TF length, short 4 mission = 1 merit, medium, 8 missions = 2, Long, 12 missions = 3, extra long, 16 missions = 4, and would add a bonus merit for each added 4 missions.
So finally just tally all the merits per mission and the TF/SF/Thread bonus, and presto you got a value which is free of time dependency.
Stormy
Ps: This is only a potential way to go about this
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On the SW most island in Imperial City. About 140 yards NE of the Tiberian Bluff marker. (Reposting this just to give clearer directions.)
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Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
She's on one of the lesser bluffs facing the city--not hard to find at all. I still can't verify the fireflies thing, but the magic booster parts were put to good use for her.
So...is she just wedged in there, or is there some manner of magical backstory. This is Praetoria we're talking about here, people. |
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Banning an temp power arbitrarily is not 'making content'. If they want to get rid of nukes altogether, I won't cry about it. I'm not even say things are hard (quite the contrary), I'm asking for consistency.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I disagree. I think its better to make people learn to do it without nukes, since that eliminates the "need" for nukes in people's minds. The trial is better and easier to run with coordination once people become familiar. You should get used to failure on new trials. When I20 comes out, there will be a lot of it and it will be because the trial/TF is "too hard".
They are not claiming to be making content just like all the old stuff. They are claiming to be making content that requires IOs, that requires coordination, that almost requires the higher survivability of tanker, and content where failure is going to be likely until you learn how. Task Forces only require getting at most 8 people who know how. 24 is a harder pool to get (although you should probably be able to get away with less as long your leaders are good communicators), but, in time, enough people will know how that it will become trivial. The time required is not a week and likely not a month, however. If you want to be among the first and the best, you need to join a raid SG. If you want to just join PUG raids, you will likely need to be among those that take awhile to learn and figure out how to coordinate. |
If someone needs training wheels to finish the TF, is that such a bad thing? Everything in this game, including CoP is pretty trivial, so banning the nukes isn't even going to slow down the fast players in the slightest. Suggesting that someone needs to join a raid SG isn't even necessary to do things fast. Heck, you barely need anything more than SOs.
I'm all for taking away the sugar coated pablum that has been fed to the players, but most of them have such rotten teeth now that they can only gum their way to success. Taking away nukes for a single trial isn't a consistent way to rehabilitate them.
I've only done it without nukes and not failed once, but I do think it's odd to only pull nukes from the list of approved temps.
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Not seeing what that has to do with Geko's comment.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Say it with me, everyone: If you can't find a reason to do a task besides the little shiny or the merits at the end, you'll never be happy.
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Things that under-reward will be under-utilized, period. He's choosing not to run it again because it under-rewards and he isn't alone there.
All the feel good jibber jabber about camaraderie and socializing is beside the point since even players who love to chat and socialize will, generally, opt to do so in the pursuit of adequate rewards for time invested.
Yeah, people will run it 'as is' for various reasons.
But many, many more would be running it if it delivered a more acceptable reward payload.
There's no morality involved, it's just Gamer Psychology 101.
They like rewards and they will ignore stuff that doesn't deliver.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Now this is the reason I try to NEVER put people on ignore. While I disagree with you most of the time Nether and do not fully agree with you on this one, you do occasionally make a good point, as this one is. I just wish more of your posts were well thought out and argued like this one, instead of attacks on people you disagree with.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Not seeing what that has to do with Geko's comment.
Things that under-reward will be under-utilized, period. He's choosing not to run it again because it under-rewards and he isn't alone there. All the feel good jibber jabber about camaraderie and socializing is beside the point since even players who love to chat and socialize will, generally, opt to do so in the pursuit of adequate rewards for time invested. Yeah, people will run it 'as is' for various reasons. But many, many more would be running it if it delivered a more acceptable reward payload. There's no morality involved, it's just Gamer Psychology 101. They like rewards and they will ignore stuff that doesn't deliver. |
New patch---> loldebugging Mace Mastery.
My contro has PPF active (oh oh where's is FA again ?), and Poisonnous Ray & Scorpion Shield are unactive. 
2 or more patch plz ?
It takes a long time now because half the people on every run have never done it. Once people get a bit more organized, these will go very quickly.
Successful PuG CoPs are already happening in under 20 mins, some in under 10. And that is with, as StratoNexus said, a large proportion of people who are inexperienced with the trial.
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