So... your proposition is shaft those players who take the pool for [Provoke] and assist the somewhat limited number of others who want the fear powers?
I'm not sold on having to take an additional power to get the only one I really wanted from the pool anyway. Adding an additional power does nothing to help that situation. I thought the idea behind a pool revamp was to improve the current situation for everyone?
It's a more logical progression overall. Single target (fear or taunt) - AOE (fear or taunt) - top tier.
Oh, I totally agree it is FAR more logical. It just doesn't seem to do what ordinary revamps do. I would think it might even simply reverse what is happening now: more people take the fears, and some people decide to kick the taunt because they don't want to grab another power they won't use.
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... which, with the Fitness pool becoming inherent, I can't see as being quite as big a deal as it would otherwise be. Don't want Challenge? Grab it as a one-slotter, and use the slots somewhere else. We're going to have a bit more wiggle room in the builds come next issue.
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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Oh, I totally agree it is FAR more logical. It just doesn't seem to do what ordinary revamps do. I would think it might even simply reverse what is happening now: more people take the fears, and some people decide to kick the taunt because they don't want to grab another power they won't use.
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It might actually get me to even glance at the pool, rather than have more interest in sticky little creatures stuck to the underside of my shoe.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I'm all in favor of making all the power pools work better especially now that we have more leeway in picking them.
I'm not going to comment on the order of picks or the added power you came up with MB. I personally feel Presence is beknighted beyond fixing it within the confines of the Cottage Rule.
I think when the powers in the pool have no real use other than for Set bonuses, and even fully slotted they arent as good as some temps out there, then it needs some serious looking at.
Use the powers granted to Rogues and Vigilantes as a baseline. Those seem like valid forms of mezz based on "Presence" since the powers in the pool can be slotted, start them out weaker than the temps, and have the fully slotted versions end up much better.
I know they don't want to upset people with the pool, however I think in this case they'd find very very few actively played alts that use it in any fashion. It needs help.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Maybe keep the tier 1 powers as they are, and lower intimidate to tier 1. So, there would be 3 tier 1 powers. Your proposed fifth power would become the new tier 3. Such structure can also be adopted to certain power pools as well, for example fighting. For Overawe, I'm not sure if it would be too good as a pool power. One way to make the power in line with fear is to make mobs afraid and run away. 
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It's just a different way to group the powers. The current grouping is based on the idea that fear is a more powerful effect than taunt. Your suggestion is to group the single target powers as tier 1, and aoe powers as top tier. In my opinion, both groupings are logical.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
It's a more logical progression overall. Single target (fear or taunt) - AOE (fear or taunt) - top tier.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
... which, with the Fitness pool becoming inherent, I can't see as being quite as big a deal as it would otherwise be. Don't want Challenge? Grab it as a one-slotter, and use the slots somewhere else. We're going to have a bit more wiggle room in the builds come next issue.
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I actually have to go with Bill on this one. I've considered taking Presence multiple times, and every time I changed my mind because... Well, my Blasters have no use for Provoke or Challenge and my Scrappers and Brutes already have that anyway. How many taunts do I really need?
That alone deserves my support.
*edit*
Just so I don't come off as a complete "gimme" dick, let me explain: I do not enjoy pools which require me to take something I don't want to have something I do want. Travel pools (when I was still forced to respect the restrictions) at least made sense - I take something to do with my travel power before I take the travel power itself. But presence, and to some degree Fighting, have their first tier be something completely different from their second tier. Rather than having powers become stronger or more interesting the further you go into the pool, they simply become utterly different. This I do not enjoy. It's like having to learn to fly a plane before you're allowed to operate a tower crane.
At least with Bill's revamp, the pool is more logically arranged, in that I can pick the type of effect I want right out the gate and pick a stronger effect at a later time. I realise this could shaft people who only ever wanted Provoke now having to take Confront, but with the Fitness pool "revamp," I still feel this won't be such a high cost to pay. Granted, it works the other way, but I still feel Bill's revamp is more logical.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'm so using that one |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
It's like having to learn to fly a plane before you're allowed to operate a tower crane.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Feel free
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Doesn't really matter how logical it is, if the Devs don't find a potential balance issues a compelling enough reason to re-order existing powers (Energize for Stalkers and Brutes) they aren't going to change the order over what amounts to a personal preferences.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
At least with Bill's revamp, the pool is more logically arranged, in that I can pick the type of effect I want right out the gate and pick a stronger effect at a later time. I realise this could shaft people who only ever wanted Provoke now having to take Confront, but with the Fitness pool "revamp," I still feel this won't be such a high cost to pay. Granted, it works the other way, but I still feel Bill's revamp is more logical.
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/signed 100%
I am all for revamping the power pools like this to make more sense.
In fact I suggested something similar for the Fighting pool awhile back.
It never made a great deal of sense to take one aspect of a pool to open up a second, more desired aspect. This may have been the original intent, to force an investment cost to the better powers, however, due to the powers being less impressive than actual primary/secondary picks, this often means players will pass-over many pools and take things from other pools (Flight, Speed, Leaping...) where the preliminary picks have potential use in many types of builds. :::cough::Hasten::cough:::
Its time Devs. You know the power pools have been ignored for a long time. Let's Dooiiiit !
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
I'm going to have to go with the 'three tier 1' powers. Why? Though the moving up of provoke is logical, it's usually an 'extra' or replacement taunt. Putting challenge in the way means you have to take an extra or to get an extra. Or taking a fake-fake taunt to get a fake taunt. That's one too many. I have a few tanks/crabs/masterminds who took provoke because it's an extra but useful crowd control power. Operative word being 'crowd.' If you make challenge/provoke/intimidate all tier 1's, you don't shut out current provoke users. It also opens the field for those who want soft control rather than attention.
I don't much care for the rearranging of the powers as my single corner case example is that I took provoke on a character who already wasn't taking stamina, so if I ever need to respec the character, I'm being punished a power pick.
Infinity
Sam Varden 50 MA/Reg Scrap
Doomtastic 50 SS/Inv Brute
Ceus 50 Eng/Kin Corr
Cinderstorm 50 Fire/Fire Blaster
Well, then, how about something more radical.
Make them *all* tier1s. No prerequisites at all. (ignoring the added power.)
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I dont think any change is going to please everyone Bill, just look at how some folks actually are complaining about the Fitness pool going inherent.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Well, then, how about something more radical.
Make them *all* tier1s. No prerequisites at all. (ignoring the added power.) |
Nope, your idea makes alot of sense. Point of fact, for every person that takes powers from the presence pool, there are just as many (if not more) that don't. Why ?
For me its simple, tier one is only taunts. Any character I have that might want a taunt, already has access to a better one. Everyone else would rather have the fear, which would require a useless pick to open up the fears. Its the same argument that is being levelled against you here.
Presence is the perfect example of a broken power pool. Your thoughts on making the powers a little better AND changing the access to them is "spot on target" to how this pool could be fixed.
Here is another thought;
Tier One: Single Target Fear and AoE Taunt
Tier Two: AoE Fear and a Placate power (New)
Tier Three: Single target Confuse (New)
What do you think ?
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Getting rid of challenge? It makes sense, actually. There are no situations I can think of where challenge would do anything better/differently than provoke. But I could be proven wrong.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
Tier One: Single Target Fear and AoE Taunt Tier Two: AoE Fear and a Placate power (New) Tier Three: Single target Confuse (New) What do you think ? |
Placate? It might work as a tier 3, but that is freakishly strong in game practice. Few enemies resist it, as it's rare. (And given to one AT that's built around anti-aggro.) So much so that I can imagine a great many of the game's 'tough' encounters being changed if a team all could placate with ease.
Confuse? No, sorry; confuses are some of the most game-changing powers in game when it comes to dealing with enemy groups. Many have 'problem targets,' and letting anyone recruit those makes things just silly. Tsoo? Sorcerers are no problem. Longbow? Nullifiers are your handy group debuffers! Sky raiders? Order me a shield, please. Malta? Sappers, point your ray gun thatta-way.
Also note that the contagious confusion proc makes any confuse into a possible AoE.
Swap provoke with challenge in the tier process and you'd have my vote. Otherwise no thank you. Most if not all of my tanks use both their inherent taunt and provoke to maximize anger directed at my face. I don't need an extra useless power just because fitness is becoming inherent.
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Wait, you have both Taunt AND Provoke? Why? Taunt is better in all aspects, and is auto-hit in PvE.|
Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
Swap provoke with challenge in the tier process and you'd have my vote. Otherwise no thank you. Most if not all of my tanks use both their inherent taunt and provoke to maximize anger directed at my face. I don't need an extra useless power just because fitness is becoming inherent.
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I'd say that getting rid of Challenge and replacing it with something better is one of the few times that the Cottage Rule should be broken. Most anybody I know that has taken this power pool takes Provoke over Challenge.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Confuses are powerful because the confuses we have (for the most part) are designed to be. High Accuracy, low recharge, High Mag, no aggro, AoE, all these are things that can make a mezz like that very strong.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
Confuse? No, sorry; confuses are some of the most game-changing powers in game when it comes to dealing with enemy groups. Many have 'problem targets,' and letting anyone recruit those makes things just silly. Tsoo? Sorcerers are no problem. Longbow? Nullifiers are your handy group debuffers! Sky raiders? Order me a shield, please. Malta? Sappers, point your ray gun thatta-way.
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A low acc, long recharge PBAoE that generates aggro on a miss (like the Vigilante temp), or a PBAoE aura with low Magnitude (like World of Confusion), these powers are considered weak by quite a few players, and for good reason.
I see no issue whatsoever with a Power Pool power that is single target, most likely short range, and generates aggro on a miss. It seems like it could easily simulate a "look, over there!" or a fake ID kind of situation that's common in this genre. It wouldn't be overpowered at all to create a power that works, has a couple aspects you can compensate for with slotting, but still has some definite drawbacks.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Mainly because I can't hit entire groups with a single taunt. I taunt this half with taunt.... this half with provoke. There's also plenty of morons out there that think it's funny to taunt off the tank so I have to grab things back constantly. There's also plenty of people who run off and grab a second group that I have to then grab as well. There's just endless uses for a second taunt as a tanker.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Wait, you have both Taunt AND Provoke? Why? Taunt is better in all aspects, and is auto-hit in PvE.
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I'm one of those people when tanking I actually tank. I want everything beating my face in instead of my teammates, even the minions. It bothers me when I see tanks grab the boss and let the rest of enemy groups run wild and cause chaos.
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Don't see the tactical "need" for that, it's just your desire. Personally when I tank, I'll stand on half with my Taunt Aura, and Taunt the other half. Works just as well. If I'm corner pulling instead, then a single taunt brings the entire group anyway even the ones I don't hit.|
Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
Mainly because I can't hit entire groups with a single taunt. I taunt this half with taunt.... this half with provoke.
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| There's also plenty of morons out there that think it's funny to taunt off the tank so I have to grab things back constantly. |
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| I'm one of those people when tanking I actually tank. I want everything beating my face in instead of my teammates, even the minions. It bothers me when I see tanks grab the boss and let the rest of enemy groups run wild and cause chaos. |
Learn to trust your teammates when it's warranted. Not everyone who does things in a fashion not of your choosing is a moron.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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....did I say it was needed? No. I simply said that -I- enjoy and use provoke (and have for years) and get compliments daily for my aggro control. Did I suggest it was fact? No. I stated specifically that -I- use it to "Maximize anger directed at my face". It's obviously my desire, thank you for pointing that out since everyone else had already realized I was stating my opinion.|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Don't see the tactical "need" for that, it's just your desire. Personally when I tank, I'll stand on half with my Taunt Aura, and Taunt the other half. Works just as well. If I'm corner pulling instead, then a single taunt brings the entire group anyway even the ones I don't hit.
If they're taunting off you, that means they are a Brute Scrapper or Tanker and most likely eminently capable of handling whatever aggro they pull themselves. If they're not, and they have a Taunt, then let them do it, because watching them die is funny too. It's great that you want to do it "right" just remember there's more than one right way to do things. In a group of 8, most people are going to have tools for dealing with aggro. Personally, I find tanks that insist on tagging every single foe instead of focusing on what's most dangerous to be more problematic. Learn to trust your teammates when it's warranted. Not everyone who does things in a fashion not of your choosing is a moron. |
I tank perfectly well without your advice and picking apart my style thank you. And anyone who taunts off of a tank that is not a tank -is- a moron in most cases, that is -my- opinion and you can disagree if you like, but don't insult me because I like having aggro on everything including the most dangerous ones.
You asked why I took provoke as a tank and I told you. (Edit: Or he did rather, you seem to be the one having issues with my style of tanking)
Man, you'd hate teaming with me on my Dominator. 99% of your opinions and desires are negated by the way my powers are designed to be played.
It's cool to have opinions and stuff, but if you really have such a low opinion of the people you play with, I hope you keep them to yourself most of the time.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Time to play with one of the lesser used Power Pools - Presence. Presence is generally looked at for the taunts (especially by Tankerminds,) with some taking the fears... but not many. (Yes, I do have a few with them.)
The goal on this is to reorder things a little, tweak the powers, and add a fifth power (on the assumption that pools will, eventually, get a fifth power added. I think Presence could use one that fits the bill.)
Current Presence pool:
T1: Challenge. Ranged, single target Taunt.
T1: Provoke. Ranged, AOE Taunt.
T2: Intimidate. Ranged, Single Target fear.
T3: Invoke Panic. PBAOE fear.
Now, looking at this, there's a problem. If you want the Taunts, you're pretty well off. If you want the fears, well... Plus the fears are a bit underwhelming (and in the case of the PBAOE, inaccurate at .8 for 22 END.) But if we just shuffle things around... well, who gets shafted?
Proposed presence pool, with fifth power:
T1: Challenge. Ranged, ST taunt.
T1: Intimidate. Ranged, ST fear.
T2: Provoke. Ranged, AOE taunt.
T2: Invoke Panic. Ranged, AOE Fear.
T3: Overawe. AOE stun/ToHit debuff.
This allows those that want to go up the Fear path to take the Fears without having to take an unwanted Taunt, and gives both paths a sensible ST - AOE path as well.
Invoke Panic, you'll notice, got changed. It's currently a very weak power - PBAOE, .8 accuracy, 22 END, 7.5 second duration without slotting... and that's it. It really needs some fixing. Things that, to me, are issues with the power:
Magitude. It's only mag 2... if it hits.
PBAOE. For the squishies I can see using this, being a PBAOE and having low ACC is... problematic. Or suicidal.
Accuracy. .8. This misses a lot, from experience.
Duration. 7.5 seconds on a fear (which lets the target run or fire back when attacked ANYWAY) isn't all that impressive, especially with the Tier4 requirements.
I can see not touching the mag of it, given Controllers and Doms can see it. Adding a chance for a second Fear to stack (like Intimidate) would be nice, and I'd personally rather have this as a ranged attack. If it's to stay PBAOE, the Accuracy (IMHO) has to go up, at the very least.
Overawe
This is the new, top tier of the Presence pool. The theme behind it, of course, is that the enemy knows you and your reputation and fears you. But I didn't want to add another fear to this. Instead, we have a stun ("Wait, that's SuperHeroVillainGuy!") and a -tohit debuff (they're demoralized or scared enough they have a harder time hitting you. Darn shaking hands.) I just left this as "AOE," it would (to me) be perfectly fine as a PBAOE, and some -tohit would be useful overall.