For what it's worth, my 'team tank' took provoke as well. Why? When I fired taunt on one group and more still bother a squishy, but I don't want to go near them with aoe's hitting me to punchvoke.
All in all, if you're a tank playing bodyguard and have a spare power pick, provoke is nice. You can throw an accuracy in it and use it perfectly well as-is.
*edit to the above* for the record, confuse adds more xp for time than it subtracts. Why? Even damaged by a confused foe, a player will get a disproportionately larger amount of xp per damage inflicted. As such, you mow through more mobs faster- (due to confusion damage) confusion helps you level faster.
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Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
....did I say it was needed? No. I simply said that -I- enjoy and use provoke (and have for years) and get compliments daily for my aggro control. Did I suggest it was fact? No. I stated specifically that -I- use it to "Maximize anger directed at my face". It's obviously my desire, thank you for pointing that out since everyone else had already realized I was stating my opinion.
I tank perfectly well without your advice and picking apart my style thank you. And anyone who taunts off of a tank that is not a tank -is- a moron in most cases, that is -my- opinion and you can disagree if you like, but don't insult me because I like having aggro on everything including the most dangerous ones. You asked why I took provoke as a tank and I told you. (Edit: Or he did rather, you seem to be the one having issues with my style of tanking) |
I don't have any problem with your playstyle but to say anyone who taunts off a tank is a moron is dumb. You got brutes who do it for the fury and masterminds that do it as an easy way to keep pets attacking and in defence mode, so ya. Both those classes are also fully capable of handling aggro.
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"And anyone who taunts off of a tank that is not a tank -is- a moron in most cases"|
Originally Posted by Lucky
I don't have any problem with your playstyle but to say anyone who taunts off a tank is a moron is dumb. You got brutes who do it for the fury and masterminds that do it as an easy way to keep pets attacking and in defence mode, so ya. Both those classes are also fully capable of handling aggro.
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I stand by my statement. As far as your comments, my opinion is that there are far better ways to build fury and as an avid MM player I would never take a taunt. I don't see the reasoning in saying that classes are "Capable of handling aggro". I don't really care and that was never a factor. A defender could be perfectly "capable" of handling aggro but unless they are the designated tank they do not need or deserve to have aggro when they could be focusing their attentions elsewhere for far greater productivity and I'm going to fight them for that aggro whenever possible.
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Do you? In your response to being asked why you had the power, you pretty well got down on other people's playstyles (even going so far as to consider them of weakened intellect). You laid out your how's and why's in an open forum. I'm sorry when you can't handle someone telling you your manner was inconsiderate, and your opinions shortsighted.|
Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
Do you often attack people on their playstyles then take the high road as if you aren't doing exactly what you're asking?
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We were talking about making changes to a pool that was, by its original intent, meant to have general utility use for most classes. As it stands now, it has limited specialized use for only a few cases (and if you don't think the way you use it is ultra specialized, think again). It's great that you want to use it the way you do. However a lot of us would like to see a reason to take it on a few characters too.
If you're the guy who can't stand change to this pool because you like it the way it is, so be it. I'm glad you spoke up. However I'm really hoping the devs give some serious thought to shaking up the status quo on this one, because I'm pretty sure the pool isn't working for what its original design goal was.
I'm glad you have your style of play, but you should realize that this game isn't designed around that. The nature of powers, the numbers on a team, and the numbers of foes preclude the WoW-esque philosophy that a Tank should have all the aggro all the time. I hope in time you'll see that (because I see more and more encounters all the time that are specifically NOT designed for 1 tank to hold all the aggro), otherwise you're just going to get frustrated I think.
Good luck and have fun, and if you're ever on Pinnacle give me a shout, maybe we can teach each other something about different ways to play.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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You're playing the wrong game if you have that attitude about "designated" tanks and/or defenders. This isn't WoW. Distributing or negating aggro is a perfectly valid tactic and in truth faster and more efficient. You can't get down on a Defender for generating aggro, when it means they're doing damage. In truth, you as a Tanker by your own argument don't deserve all the aggro, because at least part of the time it is more productive for the team if you do some damage.|
Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
A defender could be perfectly "capable" of handling aggro but unless they are the designated tank they do not need or deserve to have aggro when they could be focusing their attentions elsewhere for far greater productivity and I'm going to fight them for that aggro whenever possible.
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On a team with a defender or two that lays out bubbles or shields, or a team with some people with leadership abilities, the concept of a "designated tank" is outmoded enough to be laughable in all but a few AV encounters.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Yeah, Confuse is quite a usefull tool. I would hate to see EVERY build using it, but it would require a 3 power investment and it would be at POOL-level strength. Most likely the recharge would be considerably longer and the duration and magnitude much less. Giving something that could perma-confuse a boss would be retardedly good. OTH, being able to confuse a Lt for 10 seconds on a 30-45 second recharge would not be overpowered when you think how much a player would need to invest in the pool and reducing the recharge.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
Getting rid of challenge? It makes sense, actually. There are no situations I can think of where challenge would do anything better/differently than provoke. But I could be proven wrong.
Placate? It might work as a tier 3, but that is freakishly strong in game practice. Few enemies resist it, as it's rare. (And given to one AT that's built around anti-aggro.) So much so that I can imagine a great many of the game's 'tough' encounters being changed if a team all could placate with ease. Confuse? No, sorry; confuses are some of the most game-changing powers in game when it comes to dealing with enemy groups. Many have 'problem targets,' and letting anyone recruit those makes things just silly. Tsoo? Sorcerers are no problem. Longbow? Nullifiers are your handy group debuffers! Sky raiders? Order me a shield, please. Malta? Sappers, point your ray gun thatta-way. Also note that the contagious confusion proc makes any confuse into a possible AoE. |
What other powers/effects could be used for the concept of "presence" ?
Taunts, Fear, Placate, .... debuffs ? Like Bill suggested.
How about:
a PBAoE effect called "Battle Cry" creates a 30 second -toHit debuff on anything in the effect and raises your Acc/Dmg for the same duration. Long recharge.
Better than a single target confuse ?
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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After the discussion, I seriously doubt either of us would get along and I'm pretty sure you know that full well. I've never once played WoW and I have no idea how tanking is done there, nor do I care. |
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Do you? In your response to being asked why you had the power, you pretty well got down on other people's playstyles (even going so far as to consider them of weakened intellect). You laid out your how's and why's in an open forum. I'm sorry when you can't handle someone telling you your manner was inconsiderate, and your opinions shortsighted.
We were talking about making changes to a pool that was, by its original intent, meant to have general utility use for most classes. As it stands now, it has limited specialized use for only a few cases (and if you don't think the way you use it is ultra specialized, think again). It's great that you want to use it the way you do. However a lot of us would like to see a reason to take it on a few characters too. If you're the guy who can't stand change to this pool because you like it the way it is, so be it. I'm glad you spoke up. However I'm really hoping the devs give some serious thought to shaking up the status quo on this one, because I'm pretty sure the pool isn't working for what its original design goal was. I'm glad you have your style of play, but you should realize that this game isn't designed around that. The nature of powers, the numbers on a team, and the numbers of foes preclude the WoW-esque philosophy that a Tank should have all the aggro all the time. I hope in time you'll see that (because I see more and more encounters all the time that are specifically NOT designed for 1 tank to hold all the aggro), otherwise you're just going to get frustrated I think. Good luck and have fun, and if you're ever on Pinnacle give me a shout, maybe we can teach each other something about different ways to play. |
I realize perfectly well what the pool was intended for, and if they haven't gotten it there in 6+ years then that's a shame. Honestly, the earlier suggestion of removing the single enemy taunt sounded good to me, replacing that (possibly the single target fear) with two different powers would shake things up quite well. As it is, there's no need to change or swap around the place provoke is in, and certainly no reason to change it. That was my entire point and all I ever took a position on in this thread.
If you have an issue with my position, tough luck eh? We simply won't agree on the issue, that much should have been clear awhile ago.
I don't consider people who are actively attempting to be ay holes a "playstyle", nor do I consider people doing things for which they don't know better a "playstyle" (I suppose it could be considered a playstyle actually... just not one that I recognize as valid). That is the people I put down (mostly the former, because the latter are more often than not willing to learn or doing new things for the sake of doing them and have no malicious intentions). Do not take my words out of the context they are in and we're peachy. The only "playstyle" I have commented on is people taunting off tanks when they have no business doing so. I explained that in full detail already so have your fun, I have nothing else to add to it really.
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Once again, I have never played WoW. All of my teams move very quickly when I tank, and putting people in risk of death constantly is not my idea of efficiency. When I am a healer, I most definitely DO NOT want to have to spread massive amounts of heals between a blaster that doesn't like waiting for the tank, a scrapper who thinks he is a tank and taunts a number of mobs onto himself etc. and so forth. When I'm a damage dealer I could obviously care less as it's often not my job to worry about keeping aggro or keeping people alive. |
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
You're playing the wrong game if you have that attitude about "designated" tanks and/or defenders. This isn't WoW. Distributing or negating aggro is a perfectly valid tactic and in truth faster and more efficient. You can't get down on a Defender for generating aggro, when it means they're doing damage. In truth, you as a Tanker by your own argument don't deserve all the aggro, because at least part of the time it is more productive for the team if you do some damage.
On a team with a defender or two that lays out bubbles or shields, or a team with some people with leadership abilities, the concept of a "designated tank" is outmoded enough to be laughable in all but a few AV encounters. |
Are there situations where you don't need a tank taking all the shots? Of course. But those are exceptions to the rule ((i.e. full team of blasters, half blasters half defenders.. etc etc). Even in those situations it is very nice to have somebody soaking up a majority of the damage.
Team composition is very important when it comes down to "what's needed for this", as are levels of mobs, types of mobs, types of damage, crowd control available to said mobs. It's all just very unpredictable and not having a generally balanced team (I use this term loosely to mean "Someone to soak damage, some to do damage, and some to heal or help mitigate damage that does come in") will cause problems here and there some less important than others. This is where I'll end the argument because both of us are getting into silly semantics and derailing the thread further than it needed to go.
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It's intentionally weak. It's not supposed to be on par with controlling AT abilities, it's a pool power. It's there for utility and flavor, not to make scrappers and tanks competitive with controllers and dominators.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Invoke Panic, you'll notice, got changed. It's currently a very weak power
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Things that, to me, are issues with the power: Magitude. It's only mag 2... if it hits. |
Also, note that the majority of foes we fight are minions or lower rank. Mag 2 is sufficient for that majority.
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| PBAOE. For the squishies I can see using this, being a PBAOE and having low ACC is... problematic. Or suicidal. |
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| Accuracy. .8. This misses a lot, from experience. |
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| Duration. 7.5 seconds on a fear (which lets the target run or fire back when attacked ANYWAY) isn't all that impressive, especially with the Tier4 requirements. |
The duration is also enhanceable.
Recharge time can also be reduced. You didn't address the recharge time, but I figured I'd throw that out there anyway, just in case.
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| I can see not touching the mag of it, given Controllers and Doms can see it. Adding a chance for a second Fear to stack (like Intimidate) would be nice, and I'd personally rather have this as a ranged attack. If it's to stay PBAOE, the Accuracy (IMHO) has to go up, at the very least. |
Invoke Panic is the way it is for reasons. It's not intended or designed to be a substitute or replacement for hard controls or controls in primaries/secondaries. It's not supposed to be inherently accurate, fast and overwhelming, it's a flavor/fun/utility/panic button. It's not supposed to be easy and cheap to acquire, any more than Weave, Vengeance or Acrobatics are, because it can provide significant mitigation, just as those other powers can.
Given that it can be enhanced, buffed, improves when used on debuffed foes (Defense debuffs, for example, counter the lower base Acc quite well, whereas a power like World of Confusion has a static, fixed chance to Confuse and is just as unaffected by Defense debuffs as it is by +ToHit or +Acc) and stacks with Intimidate and the now freely available Vigilante alignment power (Fear Incarnate, PBAoE mag 2 Fear and -ToHit) in addition to the Fears available in certain primary and secondary powersets, it's very unlikely that the developers will drop it to the third power in the pool, make it a TAoE on par with powers like Terrify or Fearsome Stare and completely reverse all of the changes they made to the power in I5. There's reaching for the stars, and there's trying to grab the other side of the universe, and I think you're at the latter here.
You're not stupid, Bill. I know that, and I'm not trying to be condescending or insulting, but you really should know by now that this power is working as intended and works well if you put anything at all into making it work.
Luminara,
Of course we know that the accuracy can be enhanced. Of course we know that the duration can be enhanced. Of course we know that the endurance cost can be brought down by enhancing it. Of course we know that the recharge can be brought down with enhancements. The problem isn't that it needs to be enhanced. The problem is that even when fully enhanced, it's still a bad power.
Unlike most controller AoE, low-accuracy powers, it's PBAoE, which means it definitely not that useful for a ranged character. The Mag 2 can't be enhanced, and so only affects minions, as you address. Sure, it can be stacked with the single-target fear, but that means that you need to use two high-endurance powers to lock down a lieut if he's the troublesome one.
Fully slotted with SOs, you can't even address all of the problems fully. You can't get enough accuracy and EndRed in it without compromising the fear duration or recharge. With 2 EndRed, 2 Acc, 1 Fear and 1 RecRed, I get a 13.7 End, 100% accuracy, 45 second Recharge, 13.9 second fear that will only affect minions. Intimidate can likewise not be made perma on anything with SOs.
With IOs, five of the Glimpse of the Abyss set (all but the damage proc) and the Nightmare triple get it down to: 14.9 End, 120% Accuracy, 34.3 second recharge, 20.3 second fear duration. For that much slotting, you're still paying a hefty fee to use this power. By the end of that, you'd have been better off taking just about any other power.
Certainly, we're not asking for the Presence pool to replace Controllers/Dominators. I don't think that if you made this power better, you'd see a swarm of people taking it and not inviting controllers to the team. It's still not as good as a true hold or stun. It's still only going to affect minions, whereas the controller can get lieuts and sometimes bosses in one go.
If you were to lower the endurance cost and recharge, it still wouldn't be as good as a Controller's powers, but would make it more useful for other ATs to take.
Edit -> And this is from somebody who did take the power, put all of those IOs into it, and STILL felt like the power was a waste, so please don't give me that "if you put some enhancements and time into it, it's a fine power." It's not. It was useless still, and a waste of my endurance.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Those aren't exceptions, they are the rule. This game is most assuredly designed so the dynamic you've described is nice, but by no means the core of the game's function.|
Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
Are there situations where you don't need a tank taking all the shots? Of course. But those are exceptions to the rule ((i.e. full team of blasters, half blasters half defenders.. etc etc). Even in those situations it is very nice to have somebody soaking up a majority of the damage.
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Don't get me wrong I like tankers and tanking just fine. However I don't for a second feel they're obligated to be taunting all the time or they're not doing their job. No AT is designed to be a 1 trick pony, and in truth playing one as such is most definitely non optimal.
As for not playing with me, that's fine. However if you're taking this conversation, these forums, and this game so seriously as to feel we wouldn't get along, I'd suggest you're a bit overserious.
PS- Don't let too many ardent Defenders hear you tossing around "healer" like that. It gets on their nerves. There aren't any healers in this game, just some buffing powersets with heals.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Based on some previous comments, I suppose I'm an idiot for tanking Reichsman, Romulus, a number of other AVs, and every blue-side GM on my Scrapper. Awesome!
Anyway, Challenge, while by and large pointless, does have some theoretical advantages over Provoke. Namely, when you want to only taunt a single target. I've worked with Tanks and Brutes on ITF teams that couldn't just dogpile Rommy to split him from his Nictus by me using Confront on him and then them using Taunt to grab the three Nictus. The same could be done with Challenge and Provoke. However, situations like that where a single-target taunt is just as desirable or more so are ridiculously rare.
Lemur, Sensei; get a room or take it to PMs, willya?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Didn't you know? The internet is serious business.
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
I'd suggest you're a bit overserious.
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One reason that I suggested removing the single target taunt was that for situations where a scrapper might want to off tank, they have access to a better version.|
Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix
Based on some previous comments, I suppose I'm an idiot for tanking Reichsman, Romulus, a number of other AVs, and every blue-side GM on my Scrapper. Awesome!
Anyway, Challenge, while by and large pointless, does have some theoretical advantages over Provoke. Namely, when you want to only taunt a single target. I've worked with Tanks and Brutes on ITF teams that couldn't just dogpile Rommy to split him from his Nictus by me using Confront on him and then them using Taunt to grab the three Nictus. The same could be done with Challenge and Provoke. However, situations like that where a single-target taunt is just as desirable or more so are ridiculously rare. |
I had not thought about the idea of a Tanker "off-tank", so this is a good point.
But then again, I also think it makes more sense for both tier one powers to be single target, and then both tier two powers to be AoE. Compromise would have to be taken into account on the taunt powers, if they ever did "polish" up this power pool.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Not if you didn't use Fitness to begin with--I can see a change like that being very annoying for a Tankermind or other MM that doesn't use fitness, but needs the Provoke as they don't have a taunt.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
... which, with the Fitness pool becoming inherent, I can't see as being quite as big a deal as it would otherwise be. Don't want Challenge? Grab it as a one-slotter, and use the slots somewhere else. We're going to have a bit more wiggle room in the builds come next issue.
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It's cool to have opinions and stuff, but if you really have such a low opinion of the people you play with, I hope you keep them to yourself most of the time.
Your assumptions really have no meaning until you actually teamed with me and see for yourself. Unless every single one of your powers caused enemies to go ape-**** and start attacking people at random while being immune to taunt.... I really honestly wouldn't care. Even confuse doesn't bother me past the loss of experience. If something is moving, I want it's aggro on me. If it's controlled, dandy, but if it wakes up, it will be on me some way or another. That's my philosiphy. I rarely even say a word in teams I don't know, I just do my thing.
Do you often attack people on their playstyles then take the high road as if you aren't doing exactly what you're asking?