Rage crash nerd rage
By
Amy_Amp,
Posted on: 2010-09-24 21:10 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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KO Blow is a 20 second recharge attack with a 25 second recharge to make up for the fact that it provides you with a hold and knockup that has a longish animation that, while it is still nice, is still going to hurt its DPA a bit. Footstomp is amazing, but it's not good enough to bring the rest of the set up. Haymaker is roughly on par with other attacks (~46 DPA), but Punch is definitely sub par thanks to the longer-than-it-should-be-for-a-4-second-recharge animation time (30.6 DPA).|
Originally Posted by Dz131
KO blow is still nuts, Footstomp too, punch and haymaker aren't any worse than the other sets counter parts except for maybe smashing dmg.
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Try looking at the performance of SS without Rage. Sure, KO Blow and Footstomp are nice, but they're not nearly awesome enough to justify the utter atrociousness that fills the rest of the set. Rage is the only thing that really makes SS a set that doesn't simply suck (and it is so awesome that it catapults the entire set to top tier performance pretty much on its own).
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That sounds like an absolutely horrific change, so I fully expect to see it make a build on test sometime. I mean, why would I ever use that version of Rage given that 1) its recharge time is obscenely long which means I cannot "get a damage bonus whenever I want it"; and 2) every other damage buff out there is better because every other damage buff doesn't come with nasty, unavoidable side effects.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
As I'd like to see it
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I'll take having to use temp powers to deal damage for 10 seconds every 2 minutes over having to pack a tray of blues on already endurance-heavy characters, thanks.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Interesting idea but the trade off on those numbers is MUCH too high.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
I've got an entire write-up for some SS changes I'd like to see in the future, but my change to Rage really has to be the biggest one:
As I'd like to see it, Rage would be a toggle with a long recharge time (~90 secs) that provides a small +tohit buff(~7.5-10%) and activates RageModeOn for the character for a pittance of endurance (.065 end/sec cost for the toggle; the same as Combat Jumping). While RageModeOn, all Super Strength attacks the character uses would deal an additional 50% base damage and cost the character an additional 50% of the base endurance cost of the power as unresistable end drain. The end effect would be for the SS user to deal substantially more damage that is fully affected by all +dam buffs while having to pay a disproportionate cost for doing so (because the additional end cost wouldn't be reduced by end redux), which also means that Brutes would get the full effect of Rage rather than the diluted gains they currently achieve (because the comparative advantage of another 80% +dam when you're already packing ~250% isn't much compared to what you'd get if your baseline +dam were only ~100%). For some numerical examples of how it would work, consider an arbitrary SS attack string that deals 50 DPS and costs 3 end/sec, unenhanced (16.67 DPE). With my variant of Rage toggled on, the attack string would deal 75 DPS and cost 4.5 end/sec (16.67 DPE). The dam/end ratio is perfectly preserved, though the end cost is quite a bit too high to be sustainable (even though the damage is high enough that you might kill your target before you notice you're about to run out of end). Now we assume that the player enhances it for 100% +dam and 50% end redux. With Rage toggled off, it deals 100 DPS and costs 2 end/sec (50 DPE). With Rage toggled on, it deals 150 DPS and costs 3.5 end/sec (42.86 DPE). The ratio skews downwards, meaning that, though you're dealing more damage, you're having to pay more endurance for that higher level of damage: you're getting 50% more damage, but you're paying 16.67% more endurance per point of damage spent for the privilege of doing so. Now, the advantage is that you get to deal more damage virtually any time you want and it stacks with virtually everything. The disadvantage is that the additional damage you're getting is only as endurance efficient as it would be without any end redux in the power. The long recharge time on the toggle forces you to avoid toggle-dancing it and the higher cost causes the cost to go up as the performance you're getting goes up (meaning that it's incredibly difficult to simply build around the endurance cost as was possible with toggle-IH back in the day). It also has no crash so the only "crash" that occurs would be the endurance crash that happens normally when you run out of endurance. When considering this, it's important to remember that, along with this change, I would also tweak the dam/rech/end on the SS attacks so that they actually have decent performance without needing to rely on Rage (just try looking at the numbers for Punch and Jab without laughing), so the set wouldn't really have the current justification for having a power that so thoroughly outclasses other powers within its same classification because the baseline powers of the set are so abysmal. (as to the numbers, I'm not entirely set on them; the dam/rech/end ratio is relatively standard and I chose to provide an even trade off between endurance and damage in order to attempt to preserve that ratio; there might be some issue with not increasing recharge, but I see that as a viable trade off when you consider that endurance costs higher than endurance recovery capabilities are exponentially worse the higher they get above that point of equilibrium; with slotted Stamina, the amount of time that an individual would be able to fight with Rage on and off using the above arbitrary attack string would be ~50 seconds and ~193 seconds, respectively, assuming a 1.0 end/sec passive drain; the difference between those two numbers gives me some confidence that tweaking the ratio between damage and endurance costs wouldn't really be needed to account for a lack of increase to recharge costs) |
Firstly anything slotted with frankenslot IOs is probably going to be around 60% endurance reduction (at least, sets alone give that without hassle).
Secondly the base damage on SS is pitiful, so a 50% increase for such an endurance cost is plain bad.
Let's compare the first two attacks from SS vs Battle Axe. Jab & Punch vs Beheader & Chop.
Assume 100% damage enhancement on the attack and 50% endurance reduction.
Jab: 60.5 damage @ 2.33 endurance (26 DPE)
Punch: 89 damage @ 3.5 endurance (25.43 DPE)
Beheader: 89 damage @ 3.5 endurance (25.43 DPE)
Chop: 145 damage @ 5.6 endrance (25.89 DPE)
Now with New Rage:
Jab: 90.75 damage @ 4.09 endurance (22 DPE)
Punch: 133.5 damage @ 6 endurance (22 DPE)
So.. uh... you have inferior damage, at more endurance cost, and you also have worse damage per endurance. Congratulations, you've just created a set that is total and utter rubbish.
If you want some other problems?
Foot stomp is one of the signature powers for Super Strength. It costs 18.5 endurance and deals 63.17 damage as base. With New Rage, you add ~31.5 damage at a cost of 9 endurance. Using the figures above, with 100% enhancement, 50% endurance reduction, you now have an attack liek this:
Footstomp: 157.93 damage @ 21.58 endurance (7.32 DPE lol)
Sure it's AOE but 21.58 endurance means you just can't really use this attack. At all. Oh, your new Knockout Blow would also cost you 21.58 endurance too. So, don't bother with that either.
You're going to get other huge problems with things like damage toggles which are good for herding and attracting attention but carry a heavy endurance cost. For instance, Blazing Aura from Fiery Aura will cost you ~36 endurance per minute @ 50% endurance reduction. So... no running damage auras on your tanks either.
Sorry, the numbers say to me that you would utterly destroy SS by doing this.
One last thing to add:
Consider the old Rage to the new Rage in this example. Old rage stacked just once. It costs 5 endurance to activate, and drains 25 endurance after 120 seconds. Therefore is costs 30 endurance/120 seconds = 0.25 endurance/second.
Now look at new rage, stacked with Blazing Aura. It adds a cost of .5 endurance every 2 seconds, which is 0.25 endurance/second.
So, by doing nothing but run New Rage and Blazing Aura, you have already equalled the endurance cost out of actually using Old Rage. Except, you aren't attacking or really doing anything. If you do attack, your endurance cost goes through the roof and your damage output is worse anyway (50% enhancement instead of 80% enhancement).
I hope that these numbers put some perspective on the suggestion and how the suggested numbers need to be significantly altered.
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I'm guessing you completely glossed over the fact that part of the changes that would go along with the Rage revision would be a complete revisiting of the dam/rech/end of the existing SS attacks. I mentioned it rather explicitly so, please, read my posts before you start trying to comment on them.|
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
Secondly the base damage on SS is pitiful, so a 50% increase for such an endurance cost is plain bad.
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Foot stomp is one of the signature powers for Super Strength. It costs 18.5 endurance and deals 63.17 damage as base. With New Rage, you add ~31.5 damage at a cost of 9 endurance. Using the figures above, with 100% enhancement, 50% endurance reduction, you now have an attack liek this: Footstomp: 157.93 damage @ 21.58 endurance (7.32 DPE lol) |
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| Now look at new rage, stacked with Blazing Aura. It adds a cost of .5 endurance every 2 seconds, which is 0.25 endurance/second. |
Maybe it's because you weren't actually paying attention, but I explicitly stated that the higher damage and endurance penalty only applies to SS attacks. Leaving Rage on while you're standing there with Blazing Aura would cost a whole .585 end/sec without any end redux slotted, which is exactly as much as it costs to leave Blazing Aura on while Combat Jumping is on, and it would provide a benefit because it's still providing +tohit to all of your powers, not just your SS powers.
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| I hope that these numbers put some perspective on the suggestion and how the suggested numbers need to be significantly altered. |
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1) It's going to provide a helluva lot more of a damage buff than Rage does as it stands now: at SO grade slotting, the 50% additional damage that my variant of Rage would have would provide the same returns as 95% +dam and it only gets better from there.|
Originally Posted by macskull
I mean, why would I ever use that version of Rage given that 1) its recharge time is obscenely long which means I cannot "get a damage bonus whenever I want it"; and 2) every other damage buff out there is better because every other damage buff doesn't come with nasty, unavoidable side effects.
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2) It's going to have a potential 100% uptime all the time if you're willing to deal with the higher endurance costs. It's not draining your endurance while you use it. All it does is increase the endurance cost of your SS attacks (and only the SS attacks) while it's active. If you're low on endurance, you can stop attacking and regain endurance like normal if you want to leave it on all the time.
3) You can have higher damage any time you want, but you're not going to be able to dance it just to ensure that you never have to spend more endurance than you want to on an attack. "Damage whenever you want" does not mean the same thing as "the ability to turn it on and off as you please". The recharge is an opportunity cost for choosing to attack at optimal efficiency rather than at the decreased efficiency that my Rage variant would cause.
Before you start screaming about how bad you think it would be, consider that it's a toggle and it's adding damage in the same way as Fiery Embrace does. It's going to provide a substantially larger benefit than the current Rage does, without a substantive crash, using a restrictive mechanism that, with an appropriate teammate, intelligent playstyle, or some blues, can be mitigated to a large extent.
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I read them but some of them make your argument worse.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
I'm guessing you completely glossed over the fact that part of the changes that would go along with the Rage revision would be a complete revisiting of the dam/rech/end of the existing SS attacks. I mentioned it rather explicitly so, please, read my posts before you start trying to comment on them.
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For instance, making Footstomp a 30 second cooldown attack which costs 27 endurance (with 50% endurance reduction, and then New Rage, would cost 31 endurance) would be so unbelievably bad that you might as well never play SS.
31 endurance for this attack. Are you really quite serious?
Sorry, I didn't address your other suggestions because they were profoundly ludicrous. Oh footstomp hey? Well, better eat a blue and a half! haha!
No.
PS you didn't address how this would make damage toggles LOL either.
Last edit: If you actually want a constructive post you need to put more numbers to this suggestion so the effects can be analysed, instead of right now saying "oh i'd make it balance" which is as good as saying "i am going to fix rage" and then buying a bus ticket to get into town.
so I may be completely crazy here, but i thought rage lost the crash if you had it perma, which is really easy. Is that incorrect, am I just making crap up?
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You still get the endurance crash and damage debuff, but if you keep at least 1 rage up at a time, you do not get the defence debuff.
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Originally Posted by Durien
so I may be completely crazy here, but i thought rage lost the crash if you had it perma, which is really easy. Is that incorrect, am I just making crap up?
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Because when I make an abstract comment about how I would fix a power that is, as it stands, completely broken and only balanced within the context of a horribly imbalanced set, and say that one of the first order fixes for the set would be to fix the rest of the set so that it no longer needs a completely borked buff power to make it viable I should specifically tell you how I would prep the rest of the set in order to make the largescale change allowable? Wow... that makes so very much sense (that's sarcasm if you missed it).|
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
Last edit: If you actually want a constructive post you need to put more numbers to this suggestion so the effects can be analysed, instead of right now saying "oh i'd make it balance" which is as good as saying "i am going to fix rage" and then buying a bus ticket to get into town.
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If you want to actually make constructive comments, I suggest that you actually understand what you're talking about rather than just assuming that printing some largely pointless numbers will suddenly turn the argument in your favor or make it seem like you actually understand what you're talking about rather than simply flailing to grasp a concept that you obvious don't quite have the cognitive capacity to understand quite yet.
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You quantified the change for rage, so expect people to quantify the effects. DUHHHH uhhhh oh wow what a surprise. Why the heck would you give % effects on something and then just say "oh i'd totally fix everything else too!|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Because when I make an abstract comment about how I would fix a power that is, as it stands, completely broken and only balanced within the context of a horribly imbalanced set, and say that one of the first order fixes for the set would be to fix the rest of the set so that it no longer needs a completely borked buff power to make it viable I should specifically tell you how I would prep the rest of the set in order to make the largescale change allowable? Wow... that makes so very much sense (that's sarcasm if you missed it).
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Originally Posted by Umbral
flailing to grasp a concept that you obvious don't quite have the cognitive capacity to understand quite yet.
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Those powers have never been redundant. I'm fairly certain that I'm far from alone in taking stamina in addition to the endurance recovery powers offered by many scrapper/brute/tanker armor sets. Stamina isn't always enough, especially when fighting certain enemy groups (namely carnies, malta, and anything with electric powers)|
Originally Posted by Umbral
That's going to be a problem no matter what you do with the set. With my tweaks, it at least provides a substantive reason to have those largely redundant endurance effects when all players are getting Stamina as an inherent relatively soon.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
It also means that, even if those players have massively awesome endurance recovery, they're still going to be experiencing problems when facing end draining enemies because they'll be just barely capable of sustaining the endurance costs of a constantly on Rage.
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This is exactly the problem that I'm talking about. You want to take a power that's already overpowered, make it more overpowered, and then add in a mitigating factor that will be irrelevant to some characters and crippling to others. There's no good way to balance the added endurance cost as a mitigation factor. If you make it low enough that people who are playing sets without an added recovery mechanic find it balanced, then sets that DO have an added recovery mechanic will find it trivial, and it will essentially be no mitigating factor at all.
If you make the added endurance cost high enough that sets with an added recovery mechanic find it balanced, then the added endurance will be crippling to sets that don't have an added recovery mechanic, and they won't really be able to use the power.
Like I said before, it's not a bad idea on paper, but in practice it won't work. It'll be impossible to balance. At least the version of rage we have now affects pretty much all characters equally, your fix can't say that. That's just bad design.
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Originally Posted by Dz131
I don't know why Rage is exclusive to 1 set. When all others have the standard BU, ok except claws.
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And kinetic melee. And dual blades. And dark melee. If every set had the same powers and worked the same way it would get pretty boring, pretty fast.
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Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix
"Cough cough" Psi Assault "Cough hack" Shield Charge "Cough hack wheeze"
Ugh, I hate fall allergies. |
You need a cough drop or what?
Shield charge got changed because nothing in the game did the type of damage it did.
With rage, SS is on par with several competing sets in terms of damage and eclipsed by several more. Without rage, SS is in the basement. So while rage might be overpowered if it were in another set, it is absolutely not overpowered in the SS set. In fact, I'd argue that the negatives to rage are excessive when you consider the fact that rage, which requires a power selection and slots, only allows SS only to compete with other sets rather than eclipse them. If you're paying penalties for a power, a crash and serious endurance issues thanks to an end crash that can't be mitigated with slotting and hits all at once, it should offer superior performance, not simply allow the set to compete with other sets and even be bested by some.
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Fire Melee does have Build up.
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Originally Posted by Krogoth
And Dual Blades... And Dark Melee... And Kinetic Melee... And Fire Melee... Hmm
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Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
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Not since issue 18. It now adds a fire component to all attacks instead.|
Originally Posted by magikwand
Fire Melee does have Build up.
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Fiery Embrace: After using this attack, all subsequent attacks for 20 seconds will do extra fire damage.
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At SO grade slotting, most builds would only get a few attacks' worth of benefit out of your Rage before they'd have to detoggle it due to the ludicrous endurance costs. Basically (assuming SO slotting here since that's what you used) you'd get, oh, 10-15 seconds of extra damage (to attacks from one set) every 45ish seconds, with a damage buff worse than Build Up, so what you've got is an inferior Build Up with different mechanics. Even if a high-recovery, balls-to-the-wall IO build were able to almost break even using your Rage, that would leave the other 99% of builds out in the cold. Why would anyone take your Rage when there's absolutely no reason to? You've just turned it into a really, really crappy version of Fiery Embrace that only buffs attacks from one set.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
1) It's going to provide a helluva lot more of a damage buff than Rage does as it stands now: at SO grade slotting, the 50% additional damage that my variant of Rage would have would provide the same returns as 95% +dam and it only gets better from there.
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| 2) It's going to have a potential 100% uptime all the time if you're willing to deal with the higher endurance costs. It's not draining your endurance while you use it. All it does is increase the endurance cost of your SS attacks (and only the SS attacks) while it's active. If you're low on endurance, you can stop attacking and regain endurance like normal if you want to leave it on all the time. |
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| 3) You can have higher damage any time you want, but you're not going to be able to dance it just to ensure that you never have to spend more endurance than you want to on an attack. "Damage whenever you want" does not mean the same thing as "the ability to turn it on and off as you please". The recharge is an opportunity cost for choosing to attack at optimal efficiency rather than at the decreased efficiency that my Rage variant would cause. |
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| Before you start screaming about how bad you think it would be, consider that it's a toggle and it's adding damage in the same way as Fiery Embrace does. It's going to provide a substantially larger benefit than the current Rage does, without a substantive crash, using a restrictive mechanism that, with an appropriate teammate, intelligent playstyle, or some blues, can be mitigated to a large extent. |
Part of the problem here is that you're not actually saying what other changes you'd be making to the SS attacks other than vague allusions (you mention changing dam/end/rech, but nothing specific) so you're leaving people with the assumption that the change to Rage would be happening in a vacuum. If you want this suggestion to be taken seriously (or at least have the illusion of thinking it would be) you need to provide numbers for the rest of the set.
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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Fiery Melee does not have Fiery Embrace.
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Originally Posted by Krogoth
Not since issue 18. It now adds a fire component to all attacks instead.
Fiery Embrace: After using this attack, all subsequent attacks for 20 seconds will do extra fire damage. |
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Yeah that though crossed my mind about a minute before you posted... whoops.
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Originally Posted by macskull
Fiery Melee does not have Fiery Embrace.
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Thats fire armor. Fire melee has build up.
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Originally Posted by Krogoth
Not since issue 18. It now adds a fire component to all attacks instead.
Fiery Embrace: After using this attack, all subsequent attacks for 20 seconds will do extra fire damage. |
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He does have a point, Umbral. With an unenhancable endurance cost penalty on your SS attacks, some builds will only be able to run this new rage for a short time, basically ending up with maybe 120% of the duration of BU but with only 50% of the 'bonus' (I say 'bonus' because, techincally it's not the same bonus as BU but you get the idea) with the added cost of being nearly out of a blue bar. That's not quite fair, IMO.|
Originally Posted by macskull
At SO grade slotting, most builds would only get a few attacks' worth of benefit out of your Rage before they'd have to detoggle it due to the ludicrous endurance costs. Basically (assuming SO slotting here since that's what you used) you'd get, oh, 10-15 seconds of extra damage (to attacks from one set) every 45ish seconds, with a damage buff worse than Build Up, so what you've got is an inferior Build Up with different mechanics. Even if a high-recovery, balls-to-the-wall IO build were able to almost break even using your Rage, that would leave the other 99% of builds out in the cold. Why would anyone take your Rage when there's absolutely no reason to? You've just turned it into a really, really crappy version of Fiery Embrace that only buffs attacks from one set.
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Why not just add a delay to your endurance penalty? Give the toggle 15sec of your extra damage with no penalty. This means you get 'free damage' for a time which is kind of what BU and powers like Power Siphon and Follow up do...they give you some extra 'free' damage with not real downfall. Where this new Rage can mix it up is after that 15 sec, they can keep on raging at a cost.
Even though I honestly don't care for Umbral most of the time (mainly because he often refuses to look at things from others' perspectives it seems), I do actually like this idea to fix SS. As is, there's no mechanics in the game to simply dump your endurance into your powers to get a better effect. And with teammates/buffs/IOs, many can reap the rewards of limitless endurance and it leaves the utility of endurance management powers at a fraction of their use. How many are going to be craving Quick Recovery in the future now that everyone gets Stamina in the pre-lvl6 game? Who needs to fill their endurance bar every 30 sec if you simply build to never run out in the first place?
When people compare builds where endurance management sets would prevail, you have to remember that those sets were designed that way. They were designed to have an offensive edge because they have extra endurance to burn. Too bad there's not much opportunity to 'burn' it, with the only advantage of such powers being they offer a buffer in the face of drains.
I have been under the impression that the problem with Rage is not one application of it, but its double stacking. Am I off base there? If so, I always thought not allowing it to double stack was the best solution... a lot of ways of doing that.
If I'm wrong, I guess it's more complicated. Though I don't know if I particularly care for the new somewhat complicated setup Umbral's proposal has. I don't mind unique mechanics, but I've never really cared that much for all the debuffs Rage carries to make up for it (and even adjusting the proposal around calls for some pretty hefty debuffs). I'd rather see an interesting system that has enough recharge, etc., to make up for its boost, like Follow Up, Fiery Embrace, etc. There you get a nice boost and don't have to worry about how much the boost is costing you.
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How hard is it to:|
Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
I'm at the point now that I'm willing to accept pretty much any change to this power so long as it doesn't bring me to a screeching halt every (what feels like) 5 seconds. UUUGGHHH
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- Slot for enough recharge that Rage crashes right about the time it comes back up again? Net effect on defense? Zero.
- Have a tray with your temp attacks available? Remember, temp attacks aren't affected by the damage crash. Nor is Taunt.
By the time you:
- Hit Rage
- Taunt
- Hit Sands of Mu
- wait for all the animations to finish, your damage is right back at it's previous high level.
So what's the female dog here?
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Rage as it is doesn't bother me at all.
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!