i do not agree
while the oni is a little weaker than the jounin, he has a lot more control powers
i have been playing a ninja mm for close to 4.5 years now and ive always liked how it works, the immob the oni has means that it will do -fly to the flying targets and also has more AoE dmg than any of the ninjas with rain of fire and fire breath
another point, by your standards that means the lich in the necromancy set would also need to be boosted cause honestly i feel the lich is even weaker than the oni, but has a few more control type powers
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As I said, and you admitted... the oni is weaker than the jounin. (Superior control? Thank you, I needed a good laugh) This should not be.|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
another point, by your standards that means the lich in the necromancy set would also need to be boosted cause honestly i feel the lich is even weaker than the oni, but has a few more control type powers |
I'm not talking necromancy here, Necromancers need another thread entirely (And I don't play necromancy so I can't speak for them either). The difference? The lich actually feels like it fits with its set. Oni and ninjas? Not so much. I'm not even talking balancing between other MMs because bots and demons would be so far ahead of the game it's not even funny.
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you're probably right.|
Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
And yes, I realize it's not likely to happen since "Somebody will not like it, therefore it won't be done" but I'm suggesting it nonetheless.
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I like Oni. He's ugly as hell, and I think he should look more demon-ish, but there's nothing wrong with his powers. He's a fire/fire blaster (paragonwiki says dominator but i disagree where he only has the one control move that fire blasters have), he has the AoE that DB/ simply would not be able to match up to. He gives a different damage type to your ninjas other than lethal, which your DB/ replacement would just add more of. His ring of fire keeps runners from running, and he's awesome when smoke bomb is applied. OH, and he lights up my OSA, and that's awesome.
If anything made different about ninjas, I'd like to see the third genin be a KM/ user for some diversity, like how thugs get an arosonist and mercs get a suicidal medic.
Maybe the jounins could be one NB/ Stalker and one DB/ Stalker, that would be cool too.
Personally, I find that a lot of Mastermind set suggestions tend to miss one big aspect of what makes a Mastermind cool, and that's a kickass final henchmen. Some sets tend to miss the ball, too, like Mercenaries, who just about scrape buy with just another guy in the face of the Commando.
The Ninja Oni is, indeed, an oddball, but you need something oddball to round the set out so you don't end up with a boring set. And, I'm sorry to say, "just another Jonin" IS boring, even if he has triple blades. If the set can't have something big right at the end (and this one can't), then at least it should have something iconic, and a Japanese folklore fire demon is pretty much that. It's especially iconic, considering most of the other demons we have in the game come from Christian fiction.
I realise that perhaps you may want to play cyberninja or just simple people with very sharp skills dressed as ninja, but the set is themed to fit ninja fiction more than ninja reality, because ninja in reality didn't wear black jump suits and didn't fight with long blades. As such, it takes in Hollywood's bastardisation of the concept and puts it in with Japanese folklore to create a set that has at least a little diversity in it.
Now if only we didn't have to use a bow for personal attacks...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Indeed. I always thought it should be Shuriken/Kunai.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Now if only we didn't have to use a bow for personal attacks...
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Ninja, currently... -is- boring. If it's not the least played mastermind set currently I would be surprised, and if necromancy isn't the one to beat it as least played then I would eat my hat.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Personally, I find that a lot of Mastermind set suggestions tend to miss one big aspect of what makes a Mastermind cool, and that's a kickass final henchmen. Some sets tend to miss the ball, too, like Mercenaries, who just about scrape buy with just another guy in the face of the Commando.
The Ninja Oni is, indeed, an oddball, but you need something oddball to round the set out so you don't end up with a boring set. And, I'm sorry to say, "just another Jonin" IS boring, even if he has triple blades. If the set can't have something big right at the end (and this one can't), then at least it should have something iconic, and a Japanese folklore fire demon is pretty much that. It's especially iconic, considering most of the other demons we have in the game come from Christian fiction. I realise that perhaps you may want to play cyberninja or just simple people with very sharp skills dressed as ninja, but the set is themed to fit ninja fiction more than ninja reality, because ninja in reality didn't wear black jump suits and didn't fight with long blades. As such, it takes in Hollywood's bastardisation of the concept and puts it in with Japanese folklore to create a set that has at least a little diversity in it. Now if only we didn't have to use a bow for personal attacks... |
As far as needing something oddball to round out a set I think that's a ******** call. Robots have nothing oddball, demons have nothin oddball, mercenaries have nothing oddball. The only ones that stray and have a different final henchman are necromancy and thugs, and we know how popular the thug brute is.
This has absolutely nothing to do with wanting to be a "Cyberninja" or whatever other silly terms you can come up with; it has to do with wanting more fun in the class I love to play, and feeling like the set has flow to it instead of coming to the third tier and pausing for a "What the... I don't...huh?". I realize the Oni is from Japanese Folklore but it still does not fit with the current ninjas we have. It's not even like an oni from folklore, if it was it would be wielding a massive club and be using the war mace powerset (in fact.. I would settle for this as well. That would surely shake things up and still keep it melee oriented without diverting to the silly magic aspect).
If you bring up Naruto I will cut you... *brandishes a rusty spork*. I despise the image that show has created.
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Personally I'd like a katana to get right into melee with the ninjas.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Indeed. I always thought it should be Shuriken/Kunai.
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It might work if one of the attacks was whatever Katana's version of Parry is (Divine Avalanche?).
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Originally Posted by beyeajus
Personally I'd like a katana to get right into melee with the ninjas.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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says you |
Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
Ninja, currently... -is- boring.
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Ever play Nin/TA? It's a very busy set.
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I'm ninja/dark. I'm very busy as well, I use my go to button extensively :P|
Originally Posted by beyeajus
says you
Ever play Nin/TA? It's a very busy set. |
And I meant boring in the sense that he was talking about (AKA "Boo hoo we can't have 6 ninjas"). I love everything about it except the half-***** felt oni.
Personally, I think the whole ninja set needs to be looked at and rebalanced, namely the single digit defenses (seriously!) and I think costumes should be looked at too, especially since the genin update of dropping the archery, they've lost their first costume upgrade. I do agree that thee oni does seem to be an odd man out from the rest of the group, even weirder is that he's supposed to be a warrior of "WIND and fire" but has no wind related powers.
anyway though, while I don't entirely agree with this, I think one possible alternative could be to get a Kunoichi instead of another jounin.
The Kunoichi could use a mix of Illusion controls, poison, and Kin melee with the full debuffs.
... Of course, you're forgetting something important.
Cottage rule
Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
... Of course, you're forgetting something important.
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Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
And yes, I realize it's not likely to happen... but I'm suggesting it nonetheless.
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I do like the idea of the kunoichi though.
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really? I've never read that anywhere before, or maybe missed it somewhere. Where's he described as wind and fire?|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
he's supposed to be a warrior of "WIND and fire" but has no wind related powers.
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It would be cool if he had some sort of Kamitachi powers...
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gotta have love for Basilisk though, love that show.
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Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
If you bring up Naruto I will cut you... *brandishes a rusty spork*. I despise the image that show has created.
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Hey now! How did you know that insulting me is the one true way to my heart?|
Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
As far as needing something oddball to round out a set I think that's a ******** call. Robots have nothing oddball, demons have nothin oddball, mercenaries have nothing oddball. The only ones that stray and have a different final henchman are necromancy and thugs, and we know how popular the thug brute is.
This has absolutely nothing to do with wanting to be a "Cyberninja" or whatever other silly terms you can come up with; it has to do with wanting more fun in the class I love to play, and feeling like the set has flow to it instead of coming to the third tier and pausing for a "What the... I don't...huh?". I realise the Oni is from Japanese Folklore but it still does not fit with the current ninjas we have. It's not even like an oni from folklore, if it was it would be wielding a massive club and be using the war mace powerset (in fact.. I would settle for this as well. That would surely shake things up and still keep it melee oriented without diverting to the silly magic aspect). |
Before you call ********, you may want to get your facts straight. You'll note I said "...if the set doesn't have something big at the end..." which both Robotics and Demon Summoning do. The Assault Bot is one of the largest pets available to players in the game, and while the Demon Prince does very much resemble the Hellfire Gargoyle, it's still rather a lot bigger because it stands upright.
Also, bringing up how popular the set is and blaming it on having a Japanese fire demon in it is a logical fallacy. Just because people don't play Ninja Masterminds very often, it doesn't mean the theme is the culprit. Much more likely, it's the fact that Ninja Masterminds suck for approximately the first 24 levels or so, and yes, I know what I'm talking about. The Genin are incredibly fragile and the one Jounin can't really make up for that. Add in the fact that Smokeflash requires on the AI to make the henchmen in question (at that level, the one Jonin) use his strongest attack while hidden, which he often doesn't, and you have a recipe for disaster. Poor stats and questionable AI sink ninja far more than their theme. They could all be catgirls and they'd still suck.
As far as Mercenaries go, they are BEYOND BORING. The only thing that saves them is that I love the sound of gunfire and Mercenaries feel like they're firing guns CONSTANTLY. But as far as final henchmen go, the Commando is easily the most boring. All he is is just another guy (with a frankengun, no less) and nothing more. I really don't know what you could add for what is effectively soldiers, but I'd have liked something like a PPD shell or some such. Arnold Schwarzenegger's Commando is fun as a reference, but as far as "the big guy" goes, it's sorely lacking.
Which brings us to the Thugs Bruiser. Yes, he is "just a guy," but he's a big guy, and he looks less like a literal thug and more like some kind of Mad Max cage fighter. As well, his powers are visibly and obviously different from those of his peers, making him feel rather a lot more impressive than another thug with a gun. And the reason people "hate" the Bruiser is all down to his AI, getting stuck tossing rocks and scattering things with Hand Clap. I'm not sure if they haven't fixed that since the last time I played him, but I was always able to control him reasonably well. The Bruiser IS an oddball, and I hope you're not trying to say people don't play Thugs much.
You're arguing for a pet peeve. You're arguing a point of opinion. Please don't insult my intelligence when I disagree.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I didn't insult your intelligence. I said needing something oddball to round out ninjas so they aren't "boring" was a ******** call. If you take that as an insult I'm sorry, but my comment stands. Oh, and I tried chocolate, it didn't work.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Hey now! How did you know that insulting me is the one true way to my heart?
Before you call ********, you may want to get your facts straight. You'll note I said "...if the set doesn't have something big at the end..." which both Robotics and Demon Summoning do. The Assault Bot is one of the largest pets available to players in the game, and while the Demon Prince does very much resemble the Hellfire Gargoyle, it's still rather a lot bigger because it stands upright. You're arguing for a pet peeve. You're arguing a point of opinion. Please don't insult my intelligence when I disagree. |
I also never mentioned the AI of the set, which you seem to hate. I can deal with busted AI. I've been dealing with the oni (with busted AI) for years, and I see it as YOU see the commando, well less favorably actually. It's mediocre and sorely lacking. Its only redeeming quality is that the fire katana looks neat.
Main point is: I don't like the Oni, never have, would like an upgrade. Am I optimistic? Not really, but nobody ever got anywhere by diddling their thumbs (Somebody somewhere is going to find somebody who did just this now... *grumble* ). Right now... in this thread... I couldn't care less if the Commando wielded a lollipop and got pigtails in the final upgrade, this topic is for ninjas and ninjas only, and what could replace the Oni feasibly.
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The thing is, you're mixing up form and function. People hate Ninja and Mercenaries for function pretty much first and foremost, while you seem to extrapolate that they hate them because they look ugly. I'm not saying the Oni is well-balanced or strong. Hell, I actually feel he's kind of weak. But I don't believe REPLACING him is the answer so much as FIXING him. Improve his attacks, increase his stats, give him more powers, retune his AI. There are many things which can be done to make the Oni better without replacing him with a completely different henchmen entirely.
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Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
I also never mentioned the AI of the set, which you seem to hate. I can deal with busted AI. I've been dealing with the oni (with busted AI) for years, and I see it as YOU see the commando, well less favorably actually. It's mediocre and sorely lacking. Its only redeeming quality is that the fire katana looks neat.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I love mercenaries personally and have no problems with any of the pets (suicidal "LETS PUNCH THINGS" charges aside, but that's AI).|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The thing is, you're mixing up form and function. People hate Ninja and Mercenaries for function pretty much first and foremost, while you seem to extrapolate that they hate them because they look ugly. I'm not saying the Oni is well-balanced or strong. Hell, I actually feel he's kind of weak. But I don't believe REPLACING him is the answer so much as FIXING him. Improve his attacks, increase his stats, give him more powers, retune his AI. There are many things which can be done to make the Oni better without replacing him with a completely different henchmen entirely.
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Well how about this then. You mentioned it being from Japanese Folklore earlier.
Instead of being the Oni it is now, how about increasing its size to huge and giving it a large iron club (true oni folklore) to use the war mace powerset ? There you have CC from knockdown, big power, big pet since you're fond of size, and you have something completely different from the rest of the set. I still wouldn't really agree with the concept but it would be much more feasible towards your examples of trying to fit some folklore into the game.
Technically not a replacement, just killing the magic and injecting him with steroids. Function stays the same since you have AOE and CC. Only thing you'd possibly lose out on is the rare instance ring of fire actually does something useful to stop a runaway mob that nothing else would have stopped otherwise.
well, currently we masterminds are dealing with the melee bug for all pets right now anyway from what I've read. I guess Oni would seem subpar using only his fire sword due to that going on.
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that would still be just smashing damage. Most would resist it later on. I like the illusion tactics as an idea more since it would entail some psy damage, maybe some confusion/terrorize/holds controls, that's the best part about the T3 ninja, the different damage-type. And for all that is right and good SOME form of lighting an oil slick arrow. Maybe a Rasengan? lol, kidding Sensei.
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Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
Instead of being the Oni it is now, how about increasing its size to huge and giving it a large iron club (true oni folklore) to use the war mace powerset ? There you have CC from knockdown, big power, big pet since you're fond of size, and you have something completely different from the rest of the set. I still wouldn't really agree with the concept but it would be much more feasible towards your examples of trying to fit some folklore into the game.
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Flaming iron club =P. Or for that matter, a giant club of flame. |
Originally Posted by beyeajus
that would still be just smashing damage. Most would resist it later on. I like the illusion tactics as an idea more since it would entail some psy damage, maybe some confusion/terrorize/holds controls, that's the best part about the T3 ninja, the different damage-type. And for all that is right and good SOME form of lighting an oil slick arrow. Maybe a Rasengan? lol, kidding Sensei.
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As one of his powers a cone terrorize could be included... because who wouldn't be afraid of a giant flaming club wielding red demon thing (another reason I don't like the prospect of Oni in general... it's a demon)? Or even better, maybe just a passive aura that has an X% (5?) chance to terrorize enemies in range every few seconds?
I do still like the idea of a kunoichi... though I'd lean towards dual blades or claws (probably claws) for that. I don't know much about folklore on kunoichi if there even is any but the poison idea sounded good. Poison bombs.... eggs filled with explosive powder and poison tipped darts.. poison coated weapons with one of the upgrades? Every hit gives minor poison DoT.
What's a Rasen... *googles it* ..... *double fist clench* AARGH
Any flaming weapon is win 
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I would not actually be against this in spirit. But there's something I have to wonder, and that's how Smokeflash would work on a large brute. Granted, how it works on a flaming demon now isn't much of an easier question to answer.|
Originally Posted by SenseiBlur
Instead of being the Oni it is now, how about increasing its size to huge and giving it a large iron club (true oni folklore) to use the war mace powerset ? There you have CC from knockdown, big power, big pet since you're fond of size, and you have something completely different from the rest of the set. I still wouldn't really agree with the concept but it would be much more feasible towards your examples of trying to fit some folklore into the game.
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But again, that's the sort of thing I had in mind, yes.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Confucious say... very large smoke flash.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
But there's something I have to wonder, and that's how Smokeflash would work on a large brute.
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I'm pretty positive there are very few of my fellow ninja lovers out there. I rarely ever see another ninja MM past level 20.
I have never liked the Oni. Not once. Why do I not like the Oni?
1. I feel it does not fit in the ninja set AT ALL. We have two lower tier pets who are your basic ninja types... and then we get.. some mythical beast thing that breathes fire, uses useless rings of fire and wields a sword made of flame when he's not busy wasting his time immobilizing people?
2. The Oni itself is weaker than a jounin to me.
And a number of other reasons that are personal to me but hold no point in this suggestion.
Now, what do I suggest?
I suggest something very simple, a third MORE powerful ninja than jounins. Give us a strong dual blade stalker (or even a brute/scrapper, since the third tier currently has no hide available)
The abilities are already there to be used, simple katanas can be used as the weapons, and improvisation is wide open where the devs would feel free to add their own touch (Giving the pet its own smoke bomb to lose aggro when it gets low on health for instance, using the stalker defense set so it may heal itself)
I'm going to leave it fairly open because I'm not a fair judge, but after years of playing my ninja MM... I believe the oni has to go.
And yes, I realize it's not likely to happen since "Somebody will not like it, therefore it won't be done" but I'm suggesting it nonetheless.