Is a Mastermind better than a bane?

My bane is level 40. He does really nice damage and has a great defense, but he can't solo an Elite Boss let alone an AV or Hero. He can solo a boss, but it takes some doing. But my mm's solo them starting in their mid 30's.

My build uses level 30 to 40 IO's -- mids just shows them as 50's

[color:#489AFF]Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.803[/color]
[color:#489AFF]http://www.cohplanner.com/[/color]

[color:#B1C9F5]Click this DataLink to open the build![/color]

[*]3% Defense(Lethal)[*]3% Defense(Fire)[*]3% Defense(Cold)[*]3% Defense(Energy)[*]3% Defense(Negative)[*]3% Defense(Psionic)[*]3% Defense(Melee)[*]3% Defense(Ranged)[*]3% Defense(AoE)[*]Knockback (Mag -4)[*]Knockup (Mag -4)[*]1.5% (0.03 End/sec) Recovery[/list]

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MM is prob the best solo pve class tahts not a farming toon

I had my bane with a group one day and it took me (a while) to kill a purple. Then I watched in horror as a demon mm killed one in less than half the time. So a bane is an "epic" AT? You should have had to get to 50 to unlock the Mastermind

MM > Bane. Crab Spiders can be pretty epic.

Nitpic: They are Epic AT's because of the storyline, not because they are designed to be Uber.

My 1st thought was naturally "Yes" There is nothing better than a well played MM.

Then I saw the reason your asking; He can't solo EB's.

This makes me think it's something wrong with the build. As my experience is EB's are generally a joke.
AV's on the other hand are next to impossible without the right combo.
Hopefully someone will show up soon with more detailed info for you.

That said. Masterminds are sick. Create one, make a goto macro, profit!!!
My Necro/Dark can even take on AV's solo, with the right prep of course.

Apples to oranges my friend. A Mastermind is an entirely different AT and plays in a completely different style. You can't make any sort of qualitative comparison between the two.

Took a look at your build and I've gotta say, it's terrible. The power selection, placement and slotting are all bad. I'm gonna break this down into sections to make it more digestible.

Powers
First off, Banes are like Stalkers in that they're designed around Hidden status. They get crits when attacking from Hide and can even perform an "Executioner's Strike" when you use Shatter while Hidden. You've got Cloaking Device, arguably a Bane's single most important power, at 35. It should be at level 24 as the first thing you take from the Bane Spider secondary.

Secondly, you're missing Placate and have Surveillance in too late. You sacrificed them for Tough and Weave, powers that are doing you almost no good. Get rid of them, take Placate as soon as you can, and get Surveillance in earlier.

Finally, consider taking Poisonous Ray and Call Reinforcements. Poisonous Ray is really the only good ranged attack Banes get. Not only does it do some nice Toxic damage over time it also provides a hefty Defense debuff that stacks with Surveillance. Some people slot it for damage, others for -Defense. I went for the latter because three pieces of Exploited Vulnerability grants a small bonus to Melee Defense.

Call Reinforcements is from the base Wolf Spider Training and Gadgets pool. It summons two Arachnobot Disruptors at a targeted location. They're great pets and come equipped with the same powers as their NPC counterparts, including Web Grenade and Distruptor Tesla (A renamed version of the single target Hold from Electric Blast). When working in tandem they can easily Immobilize a spawn or incapacitate a single tough enemy. They'll make a nice addition to your DPS and help keep the aggro off you so you can strike from Hide.

Slotting:
Your powers are really slotted incorrectly. You can't take down any Elite Bosses because your attacks aren't slotted for enough damage. If you're using commons it should be one Accuracy, three Damage and then EndRedux and Recharge to taste.

Your Defenses are also lacking. You definitely wanna slot three Defense IOs in Tactical Training: Maneuvers. Combat Training: Defensive can go without slots if necessary. Arachnos Soldiers' version of the power only increases Ranged Defense and you'll be in melee most of the time. Cloaking Device gives you Defense too, albeit a small amount. Toss a common Defense IO in it and call it a day. Also, you don't need EndRedux in your toggles. They're relatively cheap in terms of cost compared to attacks.

Surveillance is way overslotted. If you've got access to level 30 IOs all you need is one Accuracy. After that you should go for as much Recharge as suits you. Enhancing the Defense debuff isn't really necessary and certainly isn't worth two slots. Most critters in the game don't have any inherent Defense to speak of so -15% is plenty. Besides, what really makes Surveillance tasty is the unenhanceable -20% Resistance debuff.

Taking Surveillance too late?? I am level 40 and respec'ed -- who cares where Surveillance is? If you looked at my build you might have noticed that I was only level 40. This wasn't some dream build. Problem with placate is it only uses up 2 slots. If you take it you have to put all those 5 other slots somewhere and when there is no more room you have to hold something back.

I could hold combat jumping back, but that gives me 2.5% DEF ALL and uses only 0.07 end.

I did have 1 acc, 3 damage, 2 recharges in the attack powers, but end is sucked out. All that damage does nothing with no end -- Reduces your DPS!

If you use 1 acc, 3 damage, 1 recharge and 1 end. You will have to wait on a power to become available again -- Reducing your DPS!

Even with 1 acc, 2 damage, 2 recharge and 1 end I still have to wait a second or two sometimes. I only have 5 attacks, but most have a long recharge.

My current resistance:
smash and lethal 31.61%
all others 10.22%

My current defense:
Ranged 42.07%
All others except psi is 31.45%
Psionic is 23.95%

Adding a third defense enhancement into Tactical Training: Maneuvers boost my defense a whole half of one percent. I don't think that will replace the 7.29% I get from weave. I mean you say this like all I have to do is get rid of Tough and Weave and add this third slot and all my defense problems are gone

Note: I didn't have tough and weave before my respec last night, but I needed a boost in defense as I was getting my butt kicked. Now I am doing quite well defending against bosses (they used to kill me sometimes, but don't now). I did drop acrobatics and got a steadfast +4 KB (acro was mag 7). Now the EB keeps knocking me over. I will have to add another KB enhancement somewhere.

Adding 2 DEF in Combat Training: Defensive adds 3.17% DEF over the base. You can't get these high numbers in defense unless you build it correctly.

So nothing you have told me will increase my damage or defense. I can't train placate without wasting slots -- maybe I can get it at 47 or 49 when it only gives you 3 slots on the off level.

In order to get the most out of this game I have to have an AT that will get through missions quickly. If I have to constantly run from EB's or AV's and Hero's, I can't play that AT (unless I turn off the AV and boss on the diff). I have a 42 bots/therm mm that has soloed AV's and Heroes since 35, and a 33 Demon/therm mm that does more damage then the bots do and will pass that bot mm. Not only do they solo the AV's and Heroes, but at a diff of +0/X8 or +1/X5. A bane can't solo a X8 unless the diff is brought down to -1 or the bane has 2 billion in sets on him.

Note: When you solo a -1/X8 mission it is not just a pile of blues, the con rises up so you see whites and yellows with some oranges.

That is a ridiculous reason to not take one of the strongest powers you have. It is a second guarenteed crit. You don't need slots in it just some recharge.

PS I'm an mm guy.

I'm not understanding this new trend with people coming to the boards asking for advice and then slamming the responses by defending their build...

If you didn't want the build analyzed you shouldn't have included the Mid's. If all you wanted to do was point out that MM's are superior to Banes you shouldn't have included the Mids.

By doing so, you in effect asked us for advice on the build. So why the need to get defensive?

(Yeah I know, I'm not the type to 'call someone out' and generally refrain from 'knee-jerk' responses but this particular new trend has been bugging me. Makes me want to stop helping and I like being helpful.)

This build took me maybe 2 minutes, and I have better Defenses across the board, and only slightly worse (0.04 per sec) end use. I actually found myself wasting slots at the end because I had nowhere worthwhile to put them.

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.803
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 40 Natural Arachnos Soldier
Primary Power Set: Bane Spider Soldier
Secondary Power Set: Bane Spider Training
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Bash -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(5), RechRdx-I(7), Dmg-I(7), Dmg-I(9), Dmg-I(9)
Level 1: Bane Spider Armor Upgrade -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), S'fstPrt-ResKB(5), ResDam-I(34)
Level 2: Combat Training: Defensive -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(3), DefBuff-I(3)
Level 4: Combat Training: Offensive -- Acc-I(A)
Level 6: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 8: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(39), DefBuff-I(40)
Level 10: Tactical Training: Maneuvers -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(11), DefBuff-I(11), EndRdx-I(40)
Level 12: Pulverize -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(13), RechRdx-I(13), Dmg-I(15), Dmg-I(15), Dmg-I(17)
Level 14: Health -- Heal-I(A)
Level 16: Poisonous Ray -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(17), RechRdx-I(25), RechRdx-I(27), Dmg-I(27), Dmg-I(31)
Level 18: Shatter -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(19), RechRdx-I(19), Dmg-I(23), Dmg-I(23), Dmg-I(25)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(21), EndMod-I(21)
Level 22: Mental Training -- Run-I(A)
Level 24: Cloaking Device -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(37), DefBuff-I(37)
Level 26: Placate -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(37), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 28: Surveillance -- Acc-I(A), RechRdx-I(29), RechRdx-I(29)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(31), DefBuff-I(31), EndRdx-I(36)
Level 32: Crowd Control -- Acc-I(A), EndRdx-I(33), RechRdx-I(33), Dmg-I(33), Dmg-I(34), Dmg-I(34)
Level 35: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(36), RechRdx-I(36)
Level 38: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(39), RechRdx-I(39)
Level 41: [Empty]
Level 44: [Empty]
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: [Empty]
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Conditioning
Level 2: Ninja Run
------------

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Sorry about that, but I'm a numbers guy. I listen when I easily see that the numbers are better, but to say to use 3 damage enhancements in an attack power with no thought of end or recharge times does not actually increase damage. If your defense is mediocre and you die, what do you think happens to your DPS? It goes to zero.

I am STILL looking for a way to save my BANE. To keep me interested in playing him to 50 and beyond. Yes, Placate is a good one, but it only works if there is only one guy attacking you and usually see 2 to 3 more in close range. If you placate and the other guy hits you, they all know where you are and placate becomes useless. So Placate is purely situational. If I had it while fighting that EB I would have got more damage on him, sure, but not killed him.

I realize there are limitations to every build and AT. I know that after playing over 130 different alts. I know this after playing 29 different mmorpgs over 11 years. Its just that I was looking for something so amazing that I couldn't wait to go back and whoop that EB's butt.

Dark Healer,

You had me there for a second. The only difference was that you put 3 DEF in each defensive power. Maneuvers is only 1 power taken at a 3.5% DEF base compared to Weave's 5% DEF base, but 3 powers to get that, so a nice idea there.

I also see that you bought that expensive Steadfast to get another 3% DEF. I have bids in for it in 4 different places, but it may be some wait.

With this build you add the Placate and Hasten which is nice.

I can definitely see an improvement and even less end use while using several less endurance reductions than I did; which is impressive. When it is running you wouldn't have the recharge problem. With Mental Training, Hasten would only be down about 35 seconds.

You also didn't have to waste do many slots in Surveillance as I did.

Thanks for coming up with a build that will put me back on track!

The soft-cap is 45%

I haven't had much trouble getting the steadfast unique, altho it did drop for a couple of my characters. The big reason I went Maneuvers over Weave is that with TT:Maneuvers and Maneuvers, you give a whole lot of defense to others if you team. # slotting the defensive powers was partially out of necessity (lack of other places to put slots). Bane's seem to have a lack of 5-6 slot powers so I see lots of *extra* slots in those builds before IO sets.

Just curious what is your secondary on Demon MM?


My Bane has no problem with bosses at all and he can solo most elites. It really depends on the boss' damage type and resistance type. If the boss has less smashing resistance, then my Bane can melt him easily. If the boss has tons of smashing resistance, then I am sure Demons can compete with the killing speed.


Overall, my Bane can kill most bosses quick enough. I just do SU, Build Up, Shatter and Shatter Armor and then either Crowd or Pul.

You have defeated Longbow Ballista
You gain 22,746 experience and 24,321 infamy.

Had to eat a dozen greens to stay alive, but having Placate and Hasten sure did help. I'm also using a few temp powers.

Increase Recovery
Increase Attack Speed -- 20% (same as Mental Training)

Came close to dieing a few times with lag not letting me pop the inspiration.

and about the mm's:
I have a 42 bots/therm mm that has soloed AV's and Heroes since 35, and a 33 Demon/therm mm that does more damage then the bots do and will pass that bot mm. Not only do they solo the AV's and Heroes, but at a diff of +0/X8 or +1/X5.

Yes a MM overall will have an easier time with AV's and spawns set on high settings. That doesn't mean MM's are flat out better than everything else. I have a bots/dark at 50, and while he's quite powerful, he can be insanely frustrating to play as well. Watching my bots consistently run into melee range for no good reason, flat out ignore commands and chase after 1 mob straight into 20 of his friends, or watching a malta titan get a shot off at my bots, only to see them all drop dead in 2 seconds to that stupid missile dot is enough for me to log off the MM and play a class that isn't so dependent on the most terrible AI ever conceived.

Really the only thing that keeps MM's from being completely overpowered is the fact that sometimes your pets just decide it's time for you to die, and all you can do is hopelessly spam commands and scream why god why at your monitor. :P

To be honest.. Yes, Mastermind is usually better than a Bane, usually better than most actually. The better question is, are they more fun? I like my Bane due to how sneaky-yet-brutal it is. It's brain surgery with a chainsaw.

Numerically, Banes are very capable when IOs are thrown in, even just a handfull. Easily softcapped, powerful melee, pets, debuffs.. A melee Mastermind at best kinda. Here's my build for your consideration. It's nothing fancy, but it works.

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To take down a Boss+, the routine is usually Surveillance - Build Up - Shatter - Shatter Armor - Poisonous Ray - Placate - Shatter, with the rest of the attacks used as/when they're needed against lesser or tougher enemies. When soloing EBs, Call Reinforcements makes for a great distraction (doesn't break Hide) and one small purple should softcap you, if not it's close enough to make you survive. Not tried soloing an AV, but I wouldn't imagine it going well due to endurance and lack of health recovery. I'd try it with half a tray of purples, quarter blues and quarter greens then see where it goes from there, damage shouldn't be an issue. Enjoy your Bane, they're great when you find a build which works for your play style.