grappling/throwing powerset is it possible?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-09-12 03:40 in Suggestions and Ideas
It's been discussed before. If I recall correctly, a dev commented that the power system isn't really suited to it, because it can't enforce an animation on the enemy, nor do I believe it is capable of being able to accurately model things like grabbing an enemy and throwing them.
It would also be incredibly ridiculous with enemies that aren't humanoid, or radical size differentials, leading to grabbing air and the enemy being radically shifted from the grab site.
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This would be a bit of a problem. |
Originally Posted by Dalantia
It would also be incredibly ridiculous with enemies that aren't humanoid, or radical size differentials, leading to grabbing air and the enemy being radically shifted from the grab site.
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Imagine one grab-and-throw that worked on say, a Rikti Monkey and a Malta Titan Robot.
For the most part, it's doable though with a bit of the "Few-Fifteen" rule. "a few beers and fifteen feet away, it looks pretty good!"
That's why I say lets put another power behind it, call it Kinetic grappling, Where the foe is lifted up like telekinesis, or singularity, then place them inside a energy bubble then slam them into the ground. I think it is possible, if we in-cooperate other power elements I think I'll right a lore for Kinetic Grappling where you wrap your enemies in a ball of energy and then slam them into the ground I think that would fix the problem with Rikti, monkeys, and Zeus from Malta.
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But that's not -grappling-. That's wrapping them in a ball of energy and flinging them, which would be a neat powerset all it's own. Kind of a control/damage set... Hmm...|
Originally Posted by COV4LIFE
That's why I say lets put another power behind it, call it Kinetic grappling, Where the foe is lifted up like telekinesis, or singularity, then place them inside a energy bubble then slam them into the ground. I think it is possible, if we in-cooperate other power elements I think I'll right a lore for Kinetic Grappling where you wrap your enemies in a ball of energy and then slam them into the ground I think that would fix the problem with Rikti, monkeys, and Zeus from Malta.
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But yeah... Straight grappling just doesn't really work. And an engine "Upgrade" at this point would require rewriting huge tracts of data... Really not worthwhile when the better idea is to plan ahead for CoH2 to have "Pull" and "Grapple" style abilities.
-Rachel-
plus if you're close enough to throw an enemy, you are also close enough for them to knock you on your ***.
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I realize this engine will never be upgraded no matter hold long this game has been running. that's why I say make a power that traps the enemy and then slams them into the ground. It just doesn't feel superheroic if I can't throw thugs around like in the comics.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
But that's not -grappling-. That's wrapping them in a ball of energy and flinging them, which would be a neat powerset all it's own. Kind of a control/damage set... Hmm...
But yeah... Straight grappling just doesn't really work. And an engine "Upgrade" at this point would require rewriting huge tracts of data... Really not worthwhile when the better idea is to plan ahead for CoH2 to have "Pull" and "Grapple" style abilities. -Rachel- |
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So slot up your Knockback. There are already several powersets that throw thugs around.
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Originally Posted by COV4LIFE
I realize this engine will never be upgraded no matter hold long this game has been running. that's why I say make a power that traps the enemy and then slams them into the ground. It just doesn't feel superheroic if I can't throw thugs around like in the comics.
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Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
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That is a great idea for a powerset, and should have it's own thread... since that idea has no relation whatsoever to the original topic of this thread.|
Originally Posted by COV4LIFE
That's why I say lets put another power behind it, call it Kinetic grappling, Where the foe is lifted up like telekinesis, or singularity, then place them inside a energy bubble then slam them into the ground. I think it is possible, if we in-cooperate other power elements I think I'll right a lore for Kinetic Grappling where you wrap your enemies in a ball of energy and then slam them into the ground I think that would fix the problem with Rikti, monkeys, and Zeus from Malta.
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And, Telekinetic Combat is a better name, methinks.
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its more than that really, i'd love to see a judo/akido styled power-set, but really throwing only exists in very few mmos games in very limited and usually awful looking ways. the simple fact is that once you have more skeletons than humans of bout the same height(which is how matrix did it), things go straight to heck. so henstly id love it, but when you dont see something in any of the newer games either outside of incredibly limited and poor looking attempts, maybe tech has to catch up a bit before we see it.
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Originally Posted by COV4LIFE
I realize this engine will never be upgraded no matter hold long this game has been running. that's why I say make a power that traps the enemy and then slams them into the ground. It just doesn't feel superheroic if I can't throw thugs around like in the comics.
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It's not a question of "upgrading the engine." No game in the history of games exists where you can grapple enemies of undefined sizes. All games which include grapples do so by anticipating enemy size and skeleton type, so you end up with different grapple animations for different foes.|
Originally Posted by COV4LIFE
I realize this engine will never be upgraded no matter hold long this game has been running. that's why I say make a power that traps the enemy and then slams them into the ground. It just doesn't feel superheroic if I can't throw thugs around like in the comics.
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Revenant is a good example. The character there could stomp on spiders, grapple human characters, climb up on orcs and do fancy flips to larger ogres. Thing is, you had one or two grappling animations per enemy, and you had NO grapplies with the bulk of them, simply because they didn't conform to the models needed for these animations.
City of Heroes have enemies that scale non-discretely, and don't always even have a humanoid model, to boot. You can't use the same animation or even the same power to grapple things as diverse as Swarms, Rikti Drones, Greater Devoured, Storm Elementals, Red Caps and the Kronos Titan.
A retread of Kinetic Melee where you toss people with energy is not out of the question, but that's not grappling, and it's not really needed. If you want to toss enemies around, play something with knockback.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
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QR
No. Not possible.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
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Wouldn't grappling or weaponizing objects be possible with a more robust collision detection system? I think the question how much work it would require to create loose objects, animations to interact with them, and a system to utilize the objects.
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Technically. Yes.|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
Wouldn't grappling or weaponizing objects be possible with a more robust collision detection system? I think the question how much work it would require to create loose objects, animations to interact with them, and a system to utilize the objects.
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Such physics collection features are already implemented in major commercial engine packages such as the Unreal Engine, Source Engine, Frostbite, and IDTech5. Hardware acceleration support for such physics collision is already exposed under major 3rd party physics engines like Intel Havok, Nvidia PhysX, and BulletPhysics.
There's also a reason why the largest multiplayer maps supported by these commercial engines generally max around 64players, with most only limiting play to 32players. Tracking all of that collision data consumes a large chunk of network bandwidth.
The current record-holder for most number of players online in a sustained fight, Planetside, could support around 400 players (133*3) engaged in active combat. Managing that many players, however, required significant limitations to player animations, player designs, and limited hit-detection boxes. Even then, Planetside was largely unplayable on anything slower than a DSL connection.
Sony's M.A.G. made waves for itself by being the first shooter since Planetside to support greater than 64 players in a match, offering support up to 256 players. Even then, if you actually watch somebody PLAYING M.A.G., you'd be forgiven for noticing that the game world is actually pretty barren with limited hit detections and possible game interactions to shave off on bandwidth requirements.
So yes, a physics enabled system could be done, but it would require a significant amount of processing power on the client-side, a significant amount of processing power on the server side, and a significant amount of network bandwidth to manage collision detection.
For these performance reasons, it is highly unlikely that we will see a true grapple set even if NCSoft decides to move on a CoH2 game. Given the way the Internet itself is trending back towards the AOL style lock out, with major ISP's like Comcast, AT&T, and even Verizon looking to implement non-neutral pathing and premium connection filtering, it's doubtful that, at least in the US, that the network bandwidth to support a fully physics enabled collision system will ever be available for the average consumer to buy.
So. If you want a CoH with a true grapple set, lean on your congressman in the upcoming election season(s) to support Net Neutrality: No premium paths. Treat Data as Data. No forced filtering tiers.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Technically. Yes.
Such physics collection features are already implemented in major commercial engine packages such as the Unreal Engine, Source Engine, Frostbite, and IDTech5. Hardware acceleration support for such physics collision is already exposed under major 3rd party physics engines like Intel Havok, Nvidia PhysX, and BulletPhysics. There's also a reason why the largest multiplayer maps supported by these commercial engines generally max around 64players, with most only limiting play to 32players. Tracking all of that collision data consumes a large chunk of network bandwidth. The current record-holder for most number of players online in a sustained fight, Planetside, could support around 400 players (133*3) engaged in active combat. Managing that many players, however, required significant limitations to player animations, player designs, and limited hit-detection boxes. Even then, Planetside was largely unplayable on anything slower than a DSL connection. Sony's M.A.G. made waves for itself by being the first shooter since Planetside to support greater than 64 players in a match, offering support up to 256 players. Even then, if you actually watch somebody PLAYING M.A.G., you'd be forgiven for noticing that the game world is actually pretty barren with limited hit detections and possible game interactions to shave off on bandwidth requirements. So yes, a physics enabled system could be done, but it would require a significant amount of processing power on the client-side, a significant amount of processing power on the server side, and a significant amount of network bandwidth to manage collision detection. For these performance reasons, it is highly unlikely that we will see a true grapple set even if NCSoft decides to move on a CoH2 game. Given the way the Internet itself is trending back towards the AOL style lock out, with major ISP's like Comcast, AT&T, and even Verizon looking to implement non-neutral pathing and premium connection filtering, it's doubtful that, at least in the US, that the network bandwidth to support a fully physics enabled collision system will ever be available for the average consumer to buy. So. If you want a CoH with a true grapple set, lean on your congressman in the upcoming election season(s) to support Net Neutrality: No premium paths. Treat Data as Data. No forced filtering tiers. |
Sure, implementing this in the open world would be nearly impossible, but in instanced missions you never have more than 8 players.
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I'm amazed how long this game has been running, and yet there is no type throwing or grappling take down power set, its just odd to be playing a superhero mmo and no one can maybe the engine can't handle it; (Not surprised this engine can't handle nothing shessh!!!) I was wondering if the dev's can come up with a grappling power set that is possible by making use of what we have already.
OMG this engine needs a upgrade)? We could us the Energy Melee move where the player jumps in the air and comes down with both fist, if we could causes the character to grab the opponent and immobilized them, then leap with that same generic animation to cause the enemy to slam into the ground.
so many ideas, but it just won't let you do it), well the only thing I could think of is have the player leap at his opponent causing them to fall on there back/knockdown immobilizing them (don't know how that would work though), then pound them with there fist several times while on top. Now, my only hag up is how would this power work on big avatars in the game like Zeus from Malta, so far I never seen him knock backed or down. Unless two different animation for scrappers, and Tanks/Brutes, like the scrapper jumping on the shoulders and pound them from above, but the only problem is how would a huge avatar look on top of a female, or average size male avatar, but still it would be cool if you could mount Zeus and pound him.
Animation that could help create grappling or throwing power set
1. Immobilization
2. knock back
3 knock downs
4 singularitytelekinesis
5 Energy Melee
6 knock ups
7 hurl
How can this be applied with the engine we have?
1. Well, I say before the throwing animation commences there should be a unique quick Immobilization animation then the take down. How about using the freeze animation caused by ice powers. Where the enemy looks stiff as a rock this animation is also used in the poison power set immobilization animation as well. Lets just say a power slam for instances, how could we in-cooperate with this engine (
2 A grappling power that involves throwing, I was thinking a simple spinning around technique that involves a knock back, we have whirlwind so spinning around isn't that hard. I believe that should be a very easy task to do, simply cause the immobilization animation to happen and then have the character spin his foe around. it would be cool to in-cooperate a tornado effect like whirlwind when you throw them.
3 knock Down I was wondering how would mounting power would work in this game, so far my only issue is the avatars of all builds would it all it to happen (damn engine
4. How would a choke slam look in this game lets use the basic about singularity or telekinesis to lift them off the ground of course using immobilization when you have them around the neck with your hand, then apply the knock down animation as you slam them into the ground. All the throwing and grappling powers should work like mind probe, where you have to be up close (of course this is grappling). Like I said the Immobilization animation should apply or make it a where the foe looks lifeless; you know when you cause a NPC foe to hang in-between something after killing them. I think causing them to lift off the ground shouldn't be that hard. My only hangup with this idea is how would this look with a avatar that is 4ft tall; One solution is have the player avatar leap up come down with a open hand, and slam them down causing a knock down, or call the this power Kinetic Grappling where the player uses a quick version of singularity with his hand gesture in a choking posture motion and then slams down his enemy.
5. Knock ups could be used for some of the slamming animation, as well, by having the character toss the enemy in the air or knocking them into airborne status, then colliding them into the ground.
6 I noticed large items can be summoned, and hurled at your enemy with certain powers. How about a Super hurl that throws your enemy across the room. I say apply a simple immobilization animation, then cause the player to toss his opponent across the room while in that immoblilization state it would be cool if it was a toggle like teleport where you can select where you want to throw him.
I think some how there's got to be away to have grappling/throwing in this game it's weird to have a brute/tank that can't toss people around.
Do you think we will every get a throwing or grappling power set like in the comics like most brutes can do?