Quote:
It would put most Defense based sets above Resistance based ones. Defense based sets have from respectable to insanely high DDR, something which Resistance based sets don't have, and with Resistance Debuff Resistance being built-in in Resistance, you'd get characters with high Defense and Resistance combined with high Debuff Resistance for both.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
And it would allow for Defense-based builds to slot more for resistance to put them more on par with current Resistance-based sets that can still soft-cap Defense.
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- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
Quote:
I'm not saying to just do it with Kinetic Combat, though. And yes, it does open up more avenues for power creep, but it does even out the power creep across sets. You don't even need to make them even variables, if you're worried about DDR versus -Resistance debuffs being affected by Resistance. What I mean is, you don't need to follow the 1% Def = 2% Resistance formula. But right now, in set bonuses, you've got 3.13% Defense = 1.26% Resistance (comparing Aegis with Red Fortune for the Fire/Cold Def/Res numbers).|
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
You still face the problem where defence is gained through multiple channels and creating new choices creates powercreep. Plus IMO there's enough sets that some archetypes are going to be able to cap positional defence rather than damage specific defence and so kinetic combat isn't the answer to everything...
Further there are situations where some archetypes/powersets can nearly approach one or both of the caps. Take Willpower on a tank, for example. I suspect it'd be possible to cap all defence types and also smashing/lethal resistance. In their instance, closing the 'popular' channel might not mean anything at all, and they are free now to do both defence types. |
That, against most enemies that you'll be fighting, is 1/4 of the protection, for the same slot investment. I would say that you could bring that up to 1/2 the protection for the same slot investment, and still be fine. You'd make it decently worthwhile to slot for Resistance, but still better to slot for Defense.
Not many sets other than Defense-based sets would be able to get to the soft-cap for Defense and attain anything like 90% resistance without a ridiculous slotting investment somewhere. Kinetic Combat is the one I mentioned because it's one of the easier ones to get (requiring only 4 slots). But if you need to build some for Defense, then that takes slots to do. Adding on trying to slot for Resistance on top of that would be an even larger commitment (and would only yield you the resistance bonuses, if you do what I suggested and made all of the other bonuses exactly the same, so that you'd hit the rule of 5 on them), meaning that you'd have to give up slotting for other things.
I will try to do this after lunch here, but if you were to create a duplicate of the Defense-based sets and swapped out the Defense bonuses for Resistance, what's the highest Resistance bonuses you could get on a character and still have it be functional?
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| Lastly, once again, I'd like to point out that going from 70% resistance (attainable by every tank) to 90% resistance is reducing your damage to 1/3 of what it was before, would be relatively easy to do if there were 5% resistance sets, plus would not face the same issue of prolific defence debuffs (-res is relatively rare), *plus* still be able to work on defence on top of that... |
Fire Tankers can do that to Fire damage, and if they take Tough, to S/L, but can't do it to Energy/Negative Energy. Even Invuln Tankers can't get to 70% in anything but S/L.
However, unlike Defense, if you're faced with a dual-type attack, resistance doesn't block both portions of something. For instance, if you have 45% Defense to S/L, and 5% to Fire/Cold, and you get attacked by a Fire/Lethal attack that does 50 Lethal damage and 50 Fire damage, the S/L Defense is going to mean that you don't take any damage a decent amount of the time.
Meanwhile, if you do get to 90% Resistance to S/L, and 10% to F/C, the S/L resistance doesn't help with both parts of the attack, and you end up taking 5 Lethal damage and 45 Fire damage 50% of the time (assuming an even-con enemy). As such, you can't build for one aspect in Resistance like you can in Defense, and get coverage against anything associated with that. Add in that you can't build for positional resistance, and you end up with a case of Resistance still being not that useful for most ATs to build for. Defense would still be better.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Quote:
This is a decent point, and I'm not really sure how to get around that. I think that you could do it by not having resistance-based set bonuses be equivalent to the Defense ones (as in my last post, where you'd only get 1/2 of the protection instead of a 1:1 ratio), to handle that.|
Originally Posted by DSorrow
It would put most Defense based sets above Resistance based ones. Defense based sets have from respectable to insanely high DDR, something which Resistance based sets don't have, and with Resistance Debuff Resistance being built-in in Resistance, you'd get characters with high Defense and Resistance combined with high Debuff Resistance for both.
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I also think that it is partially handled at least by the fact that even if you built for 90% S/L resistance, you'd still be taking all of the E/NE/F/C damage that comes with those attacks.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
I just did up a Shield tanker as a thought; with the only set bonuses as the 3% defence IOs you can cap all defence positions. You also have 46.5% smashing/lethal resistance. So you have every slot bar 2 to shore up that. It would be absolutely effortless to have capped defences, DDR through the roof, and capped S/L resistance, on a set that is meant to sacrifice survivability for damage.
I think you could find similar silliness through sets like /SR, who can cap defence relatively easily, and with toughness, the scaling resistances and set +resistances, could be tanks in their own right.
There is one benefit of evening out the availability of resistance vs. defense. The devs are allegedly working on making some seriously challenging endgame content for the high end builds. The question is, who is it going to be challenging for? For the characters using defense based sets who softcap to everything early on and then can't do much of anything to help their survivability? Or the characters using resistance-heavy sets who take much more investment to softcap, but then have the advantage of substantial resistances to back up their defense layer? The defense sets scale very quickly with low investments, but then sort of plateau. The resistance sets take longer to start scaling appreciably, but get measurably tougher once they have enough investment.
It's seriously going to suck if the devs say "Sorry, you're a Super Reflexes player, you don't get to participate in this content." Likewise, it's going to be pretty sad to hear "Oh, Electric Armor, yeah, here's your free Incarnate benefits, congrats on choosing a set that scales with massive investments."
TLDR: The different rate at which players of resistance-heavy and defense-heavy sets scale with IO investments is going to make it tough for the devs to produce content that is challenging yet still possible for all sets. Adding resistance set bonuses is one potential way to even this curve.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
In the good old golden days of issue 3, I remember that resistance used to be considered the bee's knees, while defense was inadequate and unreliable.
A number of things changed since then. The global defense nerf was in fact much harder on resistance than on defense. Mob to-hit mechanics were changed at some time between i6 and i9; I don't remember when, and I was not playing very actively during those issues. Finally, changes to IO sets after i9 made defense bonuses much more easy to acquire; every positional defense set carried a type defense bonus, and vice versa.
Personally, I'd still prefer resistance to defense if I could get it. The thing with resistance is its scalability and reliability. If you are resisting 80 percent of smashing damage, it doesn't matter whether the source of smashing damage is -5 or +5 to you; 80% is resisted. Resistance sets can fail, but do not suffer catastrophic or cascade failures the way defense sets can, especially if they are lacking in debuff resistance. Resistance sets give you more time to react with stuff like self heals.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Quote:
Can I see this build? It's not that I don't trust you, I just would like to see it.|
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
I just did up a Shield tanker as a thought; with the only set bonuses as the 3% defence IOs you can cap all defence positions. You also have 46.5% smashing/lethal resistance. So you have every slot bar 2 to shore up that. It would be absolutely effortless to have capped defences, DDR through the roof, and capped S/L resistance, on a set that is meant to sacrifice survivability for damage.
I think you could find similar silliness through sets like /SR, who can cap defence relatively easily, and with toughness, the scaling resistances and set +resistances, could be tanks in their own right. |
I see it just as bad as resistance-heavy sets that can get a huge amount of Defense, a self-heal, debuffs, etc. Stacking more and more defenses can be a problem. I just don't understand why resistance-based sets should get to do it, but defense-based sets don't.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Quote:
Take all your defences, 3 slot them. Take Weave and Combat Jumping. Get both 3% IOs. Just a tiny bit over 45% defence, nothing to it, no sets. Originally I wasn't going to post it because I felt it trivial to do so, but you can find it below.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Can I see this build? It's not that I don't trust you, I just would like to see it.
I see it just as bad as resistance-heavy sets that can get a huge amount of Defense, a self-heal, debuffs, etc. Stacking more and more defenses can be a problem. I just don't understand why resistance-based sets should get to do it, but defense-based sets don't. |
Resistance heavy sets getting defence isn't as good as defence sets getting resistance. Resistance sets don't have DDR so their defence is quite meaningless against enemies that debuff it. I know from having my Willpower tank in ITFs - even with the small amount of DDR that she has, her defence melts almost instantly.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.803
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 48 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Shield Defense
Secondary Power Set: Battle Axe
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Deflection -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(3), DefBuff-I(3), ResDam-I(5), ResDam-I(5), ResDam-I(7)
Level 1: Beheader -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Battle Agility -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(7), DefBuff-I(9), EndRdx-I(9)
Level 4: True Grit -- Empty(A)
Level 6: Active Defense -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 10: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 12: Phalanx Fighting -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(13)
Level 14: Tough -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(15), ResDam-I(15), EndRdx-I(17), GA-3defTpProc(17), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(19)
Level 16: Build Up -- Empty(A)
Level 18: Grant Cover -- Empty(A)
Level 20: Weave -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(21), DefBuff-I(21), EndRdx-I(23)
Level 22: Taunt -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 28: Stamina -- Empty(A)
Level 30: Whirling Axe -- Empty(A)
Level 32: One with the Shield -- Empty(A)
Level 35: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(36)
Level 38: Gash -- Empty(A)
Level 41: Cleave -- Empty(A)
Level 44: Pendulum -- Empty(A)
Level 47: Maneuvers -- Empty(A)
Level 49: Tactics -- Empty(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 4: Ninja Run
Quote:
So DDR is the only thing that is balancing the current situation out? How much content is that actually balancing out right now? The ITF certainly has a lot of -Def in it, but how much difference is there in something like the Statesman TF, where -Def isn't as prevalent.|
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
Take all your defences, 3 slot them. Take Weave and Combat Jumping. Get both 3% IOs. Just a tiny bit over 45% defence, nothing to it, no sets. Don't take this rudely but when a build takes not a single set I am not bothering to paste the code in here, just use base IOs, done.
Resistance heavy sets getting defence isn't as good as defence sets getting resistance. Resistance sets don't have DDR so their defence is quite meaningless against enemies that debuff it. I know from having my Willpower tank in ITFs - even with the small amount of DDR that she has, her defence melts almost instantly. |
The ITF seems like it was almost specifically designed to even things out between native Defense sets and non-native defense sets. But does that mean to continue doing that, we need to keep creating mobs that debuff defense?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
While I agree w/BA in principle on the perils of allowing for both def & resist caps in the game, there are a few differences that should be acknowledged (Aett touches on it a bit below):
First, there's no positions in resists. Whereas you can slot for, say, capped ranged def, or even try to get all 3 positions w/the right powerset + IO combo, you can't do that w/resists. It's already prohibitive to try to build for multiple typed def caps--if you're like Invul w/an already high FECN def, you can prolly cap S/L on top of the exotics, and ppl like Dechs did S/L/E/N cap w/Dark Armor, but a blaster or controller isn't going to be able to do more than just S/L. Add trying to raise your resists at the same time, and I think you just don't have enough slots to do a very good job.
Second, for typed defense, as long as you cover one type, if the damage is mixed, you cover all, which is why S/L def is so popular. Again, not the case for resists, which is why Fire, Invul, even Granite (only) tanks can get chewed up by psi damage. So maybe you can cap your S/L def & resists (made easier w/powers like Tough), and you'll be seriously tough, no doubt about it, but hardly invincible w/all the exotic damage floating out there.
I do think the biggest concerns, also brought up by BA, are when, say, an SR scrapper gets decent resist value while maintaining 95% DDR. Of course, that would just bring SR up to what can currently be achieved w/Shields, but what could potentially be done w/SD tanks might indeed be game breaking. I don't know the solution either--maybe introduce more exotic damage, esp Psi and/or Toxic in the later games. If you're going to cherry pick opponents, you can already do that now.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
Quote:
^ I updated my post above.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
So DDR is the only thing that is balancing the current situation out? How much content is that actually balancing out right now? The ITF certainly has a lot of -Def in it, but how much difference is there in something like the Statesman TF, where -Def isn't as prevalent.
The ITF seems like it was almost specifically designed to even things out between native Defense sets and non-native defense sets. But does that mean to continue doing that, we need to keep creating mobs that debuff defense? |
DDR is quite prevalent. Almost everything with a gun has some kind of automatic fire that debuffs defence, and likewise almost anything with a bladed weapon can too. Certainly your mileage will vary for every taskforce, but I suspect most people will agree that defence debuffs are relatively prolific, and resistance debuffs are relatively rare.
Regardless of this particular argument, I still think that once we've moved past the theory of what is right and wrong, that build right above is us not at all 'tricked out' and could be built into a monster if you could use sets for resistance. It would be so outside the scale of reasonability, and that is why I don't like the idea of having both these set bonuses available, as per my original point.
Quote:
I saw your update just after I posted, and I thank you for doing that. I'm a very visual person, so I like to be able to see it. Thanks for doing that. I'll respond to that in a bit.|
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
^ I updated my post above.
DDR is quite prevalent. Almost everything with a gun has some kind of automatic fire that debuffs defence, and likewise almost anything with a bladed weapon can too. Certainly your mileage will vary for every taskforce, but I suspect most people will agree that defence debuffs are relatively prolific, and resistance debuffs are relatively rare. |
Quote:
| Regardless of this particular argument, I still think that once we've moved past the theory of what is right and wrong, that build right above is us not at all 'tricked out' and could be built into a monster if you could use sets for resistance. It would be so outside the scale of reasonability, and that is why I don't like the idea of having both these set bonuses available, as per my original point. |
DDR wasn't as much of a part of this game for a long time. Defense sets got a lot of that because there were so many Defense debuffs in the game, compared to Resistance debuffs. I think it was a huge mistake to give so many mobs -Def debuffs in the early game, which necessitated the high levels of DDR, which then led to the situation we're in now, where Defense sets can't build for more toughness as easily as Resistance sets, because they have DDR. They're basically being punished because of something they got to prevent them from being useless earlier in the game's lifetime.
I mean, at this point, I really do agree with you that adding better resistance sets isn't that easy considering all factors involved. However, my problem is more with the "why" that is than the "how." I think that Defense in general needs a good looking into, and that the Devs have basically dug their own grave on that issue, but they didn't do it all at once. They've been very slowly digging it for a long time now, and each shovel of dirt just made it tougher to correct. Now, if they try to do it, it's going to make a lot of people angry. But I think that it needs to be done.
Lower DDR on Defense sets. Remove a LOT of Def Debuffs from enemies. Then you can either lower Defense bonuses or make Resistance bonuses worth going for. But you can't do the latter without doing some of the former.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Just as a little semi-counter to your build, BA, I put this Invuln build together. Granted, it's a hybrid set, but considering that I often see them aiming for Defense sets over Resistance sets, I'd say that it's fairly middle of the ground here.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.803
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 31 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Battle Axe
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Temp Invulnerability -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(3), ResDam-I(3), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(7)
Level 1: Beheader -- Empty(A), Empty(11)
Level 2: Resist Physical Damage -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(5), ResDam-I(5)
Level 4: Gash -- Empty(A), Empty(11), Empty(13)
Level 6: Dull Pain -- Empty(A), Empty(7)
Level 8: Unyielding -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(9), ResDam-I(9), GA-3defTpProc(13)
Level 10: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 12: Taunt -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Tough -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(15), ResDam-I(15)
Level 16: Resist Elements -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(17), ResDam-I(17)
Level 18: Invincibility -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(19), DefBuff-I(19), Empty(21)
Level 20: Weave -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(21), DefBuff-I(23), Empty(23)
Level 22: Swoop -- Empty(A), Empty(25)
Level 24: Resist Energies -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(25), ResDam-I(27)
Level 26: Tough Hide -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(27), DefBuff-I(29)
Level 28: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(29), DefBuff-I(31)
Level 30: Whirling Axe -- Empty(A), Empty(31), Empty(31)
Level 32: [Empty]
Level 35: [Empty]
Level 38: [Empty]
Level 41: [Empty]
Level 44: [Empty]
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: [Empty]
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 2: Ninja Run
Code:
That's 90% (actually over) S/L Resistance, 31.7% F/C/E/NE Resistance, and 31.4% Defense to S/L/F/C/E/NE with one mob in range of Invincibility, using only the two set IOs that you did, and taking similar power pools. That's my problem here. It seems okay for resistance-based sets to be able to do these kinds of things, but Defense-based sets can't, and it's not okay for them to try.| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1038;487;974;HEX;| |78DA9D92DD4AE34014C7274D6A8D4D6D6BADAD557B2F4840AFFCB810BF16040B659| |1BDDADD12C36C1D0C5192287AE703F80A3E88F8167EEE3E8428EB0364CFC7580C5E| |083B90DF3FF33FE7CC394DA773BAE90871BE2A0C6723F0E2B8B7EB850732CA77BCB| |EF2454108D166A7B7297FC93096EE7678721C8432F2F654A092B3860E776420A5BB| |EE2549207B6BA7B2BA1DEECB488689FBF652EA1E1E06EE17D5DF4F54D87768B723B| |D23D814391460AC4AEFD045C58A5BD4B68E94EFAE457EA2FC5EC78B13199D3561B2| |59786E6D80018F484D3107322F7219196A4074463C611EADD410292C3142BC01DFE| |0FA9CC11556469E21C1E4C29CF9AED021DE4134AF8FCD9333447C00BFA0C72AF041| |C31971164C1403BE304F960A9B2A5F605BD44E911C13724A7AC412578F66E41E4AC| |A3AA1CC562523BF21A16AE4699A6A9BACB18C8C53230B1AD5F4D0351D6099D04269| |7FE1B4BAFECD75729AC447F01B7A8C06376EB2B458FE40C2A44E98E4135B2CD3FA7| |C18604A7FEBA94CA4CDF26AE37FC90933D4B4FD8EE9E76BDA1A5C03C1D760E783D3| |B5F48D02C72067D61A5CB2D4AE0CA2FFBBAE9CB796F6D711E02EA28BF886F88EF88| |1F889F0107B081F915E0FAACB8B38D7126219B182A8C37CE202330B788D8A080751| |428C22CA880AA28668212E11E93FA0E12457| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
If that is solely because of DDR, then that is a problem with DDR.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Quote:
Granted, DDR is nice, but it's not the end-all, be-all for defense based sets. There's still plenty of +to hit in the end game content to overcome any of that. Run a few Nemesis missions and see how good that DDR is then. Especially since the best DDR sets don't come with heals.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
That's 90% (actually over) S/L Resistance, 31.7% F/C/E/NE Resistance, and 31.4% Defense to S/L/F/C/E/NE with one mob in range of Invincibility, using only the two set IOs that you did, and taking similar power pools. That's my problem here. It seems okay for resistance-based sets to be able to do these kinds of things, but Defense-based sets can't, and it's not okay for them to try.
If that is solely because of DDR, then that is a problem with DDR. |
My Elec/Stone Tank on the other hand, with his generous resist numbers, 30% S/L/~Melee IO defense and 900+ HP bonuses, runs through a lot of content on solo 8-man missions and sees hardly any movement in his green bar. I'd like to know why it's ok for resist sets to layer so much mitigation, but not defense sets.
Aett's suggestion of placing them inside the same type sets as defense bonuses are found in seems like a solid idea to me. This way, if some Tankers/Brutes/Scrappers/Stalkers go for extreme survival bonuses, they're going to have to sacrifice other important aspects of their build to do so. If my choice is 4 slotting KC's for S/L defense or 4-slotting some new melee set for a S/L res bonus, then I'm not going to be able max out both. Considering res sets usually hover in the 50% range in dmg types they don't specialize in, it's still going to be hard (or impossible) to cap dam res in all areas.
I'm not suggesting there be as many sets made with res bonuses as there are for def bonuses, but what's available for the two has too big a disparity.
Defense Bonuses for Smashing
Resist Bonuses for Smashing
7 sets. Total. And if you want to take into account that one is a pet set of 5, that makes 6. Oh, and 2 sets are from PVP IOs, so that's going to be expensive, if not greatly time consuming. Oh, and the other sets are difficult for most melee toons to work in. So yeah, the game could tolerate some more useful res bonuses in sets that would make them worthwhile.
So put some adequate resist bonuses in competing sets melee toons would use. It won't be game breaking.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
I'm not sure why tohit buff hasn't really entered this yet, but there are some very significant problems that any defence set has with that...
I'm also going to be a bit of a broken record and repeat that I'm not sure that it's a good idea to assume that one broken mechanic deserves another
Just because def can cap just about everything doesn't mean that it's a good design decision, and it doesn't mean that we should desire the same capping power from res sets.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
Quote:
I just can't agree that one overpowered build justifies another, something to me is wrong with that step.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I I agree that your build above could become a monster with only slight investment. However, my problem is that something like Invuln could do the same, just the other way around, for slightly more investment. Granted, they wouldn't have as much DDR as the Shield user would, but if that is the only thing that is working for the Shield user, that might be a problem with DDR and the prevalence of Def debuffs more than the IO system.
DDR wasn't as much of a part of this game for a long time. Defense sets got a lot of that because there were so many Defense debuffs in the game, compared to Resistance debuffs. I think it was a huge mistake to give so many mobs -Def debuffs in the early game, which necessitated the high levels of DDR, which then led to the situation we're in now, where Defense sets can't build for more toughness as easily as Resistance sets, because they have DDR. They're basically being punished because of something they got to prevent them from being useless earlier in the game's lifetime. I mean, at this point, I really do agree with you that adding better resistance sets isn't that easy considering all factors involved. However, my problem is more with the "why" that is than the "how." I think that Defense in general needs a good looking into, and that the Devs have basically dug their own grave on that issue, but they didn't do it all at once. They've been very slowly digging it for a long time now, and each shovel of dirt just made it tougher to correct. Now, if they try to do it, it's going to make a lot of people angry. But I think that it needs to be done. Lower DDR on Defense sets. Remove a LOT of Def Debuffs from enemies. Then you can either lower Defense bonuses or make Resistance bonuses worth going for. But you can't do the latter without doing some of the former. |
I do pretty much agree 100% with your entire DDR argument - it is far too prevalent, and low level sets are especially victimised by it. I am playing a /shields scrapper right now who has ~25% defence and even Freaks, who I never thought of as having defence debuffs, can nullify my defences fast with their guns and slicey blades.
However I can't really argue about what should be in an alternative state of the game where DDR wasn't prevalent. That's kind of a side issue, I can only say about what I feel now, which goes back to the first - just because something is overpowered, doesn't mean everything else should be bumped up to meet that standard.
Quote:
Well, I guess my point is more that IF the current situation with Def is okay, then it should be okay to do the same with Res, as well. IF it is not, then something should be done with Def to adjust it, and then bring Res in line, too.|
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
I just can't agree that one overpowered build justifies another, something to me is wrong with that step.
I do pretty much agree 100% with your entire DDR argument - it is far too prevalent, and low level sets are especially victimised by it. I am playing a /shields scrapper right now who has ~25% defence and even Freaks, who I never thought of as having defence debuffs, can nullify my defences fast with their guns and slicey blades. However I can't really argue about what should be in an alternative state of the game where DDR wasn't prevalent. That's kind of a side issue, I can only say about what I feel now, which goes back to the first - just because something is overpowered, doesn't mean everything else should be bumped up to meet that standard. |
I definitely understand where you are coming from, but something should be done on either side of it. Because right now, Res-based sets can gain more survivability with minimal investment than Def-based sets can.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Think that's bad, try looking for lethal resists.
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Originally Posted by Rylas
Granted, DDR is nice, but it's not the end-all, be-all for defense based sets. There's still plenty of +to hit in the end game content to overcome any of that. Run a few Nemesis missions and see how good that DDR is then. Especially since the best DDR sets don't come with heals.
My Elec/Stone Tank on the other hand, with his generous resist numbers, 30% S/L/~Melee IO defense and 900+ HP bonuses, runs through a lot of content on solo 8-man missions and sees hardly any movement in his green bar. I'd like to know why it's ok for resist sets to layer so much mitigation, but not defense sets. Aett's suggestion of placing them inside the same type sets as defense bonuses are found in seems like a solid idea to me. This way, if some Tankers/Brutes/Scrappers/Stalkers go for extreme survival bonuses, they're going to have to sacrifice other important aspects of their build to do so. If my choice is 4 slotting KC's for S/L defense or 4-slotting some new melee set for a S/L res bonus, then I'm not going to be able max out both. Considering res sets usually hover in the 50% range in dmg types they don't specialize in, it's still going to be hard (or impossible) to cap dam res in all areas. I'm not suggesting there be as many sets made with res bonuses as there are for def bonuses, but what's available for the two has too big a disparity. Defense Bonuses for Smashing Resist Bonuses for Smashing 7 sets. Total. And if you want to take into account that one is a pet set of 5, that makes 6. Oh, and 2 sets are from PVP IOs, so that's going to be expensive, if not greatly time consuming. Oh, and the other sets are difficult for most melee toons to work in. So yeah, the game could tolerate some more useful res bonuses in sets that would make them worthwhile. So put some adequate resist bonuses in competing sets melee toons would use. It won't be game breaking. |
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
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Ice/Fire seems to get a lot of the resist bonuses. Helpful for Ice tanks, but the better bonus values come from Purples. Which is odd, because it takes three from a Purple set to get 2.52%, but you get basically the same resist values with three Gift of the Ancients. So GotA needs to come down, or (and I would prefer) Purple sets need to be adjusted upward on their fire resist bonus.|
Originally Posted by Smersh
Think that's bad, try looking for lethal resists.
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Originally Posted by Spiritchaser
I'm not sure why tohit buff hasn't really entered this yet, but there are some very significant problems that any defence set has with that...
...... Just because def can cap just about everything doesn't mean that it's a good design decision, and it doesn't mean that we should desire the same capping power from res sets. |
Those sets would be Shields, Super Reflexes, Stone (in Granite) and Energy Aura. Those last two have no Psi protection. The first two have no heals.
Ice Armor will only be capped to S/L/E/N. A good amount of coverage, but hardly as impressive as the rest.
Second, I don't think anyone here is asking that they be able to cap res across the board on all their armor sets. Mainly because, unlike many defense sets, resist numbers vary quite a bit within resist sets. Electric, Dark and Fire only have very high resist in one damage type, and low to moderate numbers in the rest. Dark doesn't even self-cap in ANY type. So even if the devs made resist bonuses more available in moderate numbers, it would be difficult or impossible to see a tank sitting at the cap on all resists.
As it stands now, a defensive tank with across the board soft-cap numbers is still not as durable as high-number resist set with moderate defense bonuses. Nor is it overpowered for resist sets to have those defense bonuses, because it does require making sacrifices in most cases. Defense Debuff and +to hit in NPCs is numerous enough to overcome those bonuses. Where does this leave a soft-cap melee toon with no (or low) resists?
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
I also think that people are overestimating the impact that improving resistance set bonuses would have on builds. Even if as someone suggested the current resist bonuses were paired like defense bonuses are, and doubled in size I don't think it would be possible to make a soft-capped for defense, hard-capped for resistance character with any AT.
The reason is simply that there are a limited number of slots, and in many cases slotting for one kind of bonus would preclude slotting for another. High defense sets that don't need many bonuses to soft-cap generally have low native resistances and it would be a long slog to get even one resist type to the 90% cap, let alone all of them. Currently, soft-capping high resist sets takes devoting most of the available slots to that purpose, and I really don't think there would be enough slots left over to cap more than one pair of resist types. And evidently, having soft-capped defense and being able to cap some resist types is okay, since Invul has been able to do it for some time.
I suspect that if resist numbers were made more attractive it would simply give melee ATs more of a choice; they could go for hard-capping some resist types OR soft-capping defense, and I don't think that's a bad thing, or overpowered.
But as you can tell, that's just a guess on my part, so if someone wants to try the experiment assuming resist bonuses were paired and doubled, it would be interesting to see if say, a Shield tank could soft-cap and hard-cap resists, or whether an Invul tank could soft-cap and significantly raise the amount of non-S/L resists.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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Looks like a nice little project to do, considering I love tinkering in Mids. There's certainly no way to hard-cap all resists for the Shield tank, so which type would you consider with capping. Just S/L?
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Originally Posted by Finduilas
...it would be interesting to see if say, a Shield tank could soft-cap and hard-cap resists, or whether an Invul tank could soft-cap and significantly raise the amount of non-S/L resists.
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@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Allow me to submit a data point for you all...
Attempt to max out electric armor resists with currently available sets.
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
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A very good example of how much has to be sacrificed to do anything with resist bonuses as they are now.
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Originally Posted by Smersh
Allow me to submit a data point for you all...
Attempt to max out electric armor resists with currently available sets. |
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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S/L would be easiest, since a Shield tanker with Tough has about 45% resistance to S/L, IIRC. And even if it can be done, I don't see how it could be considered overpowered since Invul can do the same already.
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Originally Posted by Rylas
Looks like a nice little project to do, considering I love tinkering in Mids. There's certainly no way to hard-cap all resists for the Shield tank, so which type would you consider with capping. Just S/L?
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My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
Defense-based sets will be able to gain Resistance in the same way that Resistance-based sets can now gain Defense. Other ATs will have to choose between going Defense or Resistance, since they will be unlikely to be able to get both, if you do it right.
Further there are situations where some archetypes/powersets can nearly approach one or both of the caps. Take Willpower on a tank, for example. I suspect it'd be possible to cap all defence types and also smashing/lethal resistance. In their instance, closing the 'popular' channel might not mean anything at all, and they are free now to do both defence types.
Lastly, once again, I'd like to point out that going from 70% resistance (attainable by every tank) to 90% resistance is reducing your damage to 1/3 of what it was before, would be relatively easy to do if there were 5% resistance sets, plus would not face the same issue of prolific defence debuffs (-res is relatively rare), *plus* still be able to work on defence on top of that...